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[blafarm]

I'm new to the product, and new to the forum, so please excuse my ignorance and/or misunderstandings. I'm about to make a rather large purchase in the form of a RAID file server and I was hoping to get some advice on which operating system to use; with the choices being Xp Pro (running a simple network volume share)  -or-  Windows Server 2003.

Lately, I have been trying to get a better handle on the future of client-server architecture in home theater, home security, home automation and, of course, Media Center. My understanding of MC is that "server functions" can run on any machine on the LAN and that clients will auto sense their existence. I know that MC's features are growing at a rapid pace and I'm interested in having a glimpse on how this architecture might evolve over time and whether or not a dedicated server, running server software, may be required in the future to support more advanced features.

For example, simultaneous playback by multiple clients seems to be a "holy grail" wish list item, and knowing that systems provide this functionality by employing Multicast, I was wondering if an advanced MC product might one day migrate to a more traditional server-based architecture (although I'm assuming the vast majority of users won't want to pay for, or administer, a server O/S . I've been involved with audio and video for many years but I am new to this IP-based infrastructure and have little experience in the world of server setup and administration. I'm beginning to recognize, however, that in the complex world of IP-based home theater, security and automation, it might soon be beneficial to have a traditional server O/S at the core of one's system.

To be honest, selecting Windows Server 2003 will incur an increased learning curve on my part and a substantial cost over and above an Xp Pro installation running a simple network volume share. In spite of that, I'm trying to make the right decision before pulling the trigger. I'd hate to choose Xp only to realize that it precluded me from incorporating an important feature down the road. That's my dilemma.

I welcome any thoughts you might have on this subject. Thanks.

[akak718]

Without a doubt, stay away from Server 2003. For the type of installation you are talking about, you will get no benefit from it, but you will pay a huge price premium. The advantage to a server OS like that is its abilty to handle many clients at the same time (we're talking 50+ here, not the 2 to 5 simultaneous connections you might have in your house). A simple home network running on a 100mb/s wired network, or even 802.11b/g wireless network would be plenty. You'd be much better off taking 1/4 of the money you would be spending on Server 2003 and just put that into better hardware. Get yourself a good amount of RAM, some quality network gear, and a mid-high end P4 and you will be more than happy.

For the record, I run a 300MHz Celeron server, with Linux-Mandrake 9.1 as the OS. All of my audio/video files are stored on a RAID1 volume on that system. Even a machine that old has no problem serving to 2 XP clients simultaneously. I've never tried more clients than that because thats all the computers I have, but I suspect it could handle at least 1 or 2 more before I would notice any performance degradation.

Hope that helps.

-Lou

[blafarm]

Thanks for your point of view and I realize that there may be much truth in what you've written. I'd be interested to know what kind of load your Xp clients are bringing to bear on your Celeron-based Linux server. Are you talking about two-streams of compressed audio or two-streams of ripped uncompressed DVD's with ac3? Also, I'd love to have a better understanding of your topology, is it 100bt or gigabit Ethernet, and do you have any idea how much bandwidth is being consumed by this traffic? I know these issues have nothing to do with O/S but I'd be interested anyway if it's not too much trouble.

While I think my short term goals very much resemble yours, I find myself worrying about future needs that might require a traditional server. In no particular order, they include support for multicast protocols, streaming media, hosting LAN-limited home web pages and supporting some of the features that I've read might one day be incorporated into the ever changing MAINLobby and its offspring.

I guess my concerns also includes the possibility of running devices like multiple Viewsonic Airpanels in multiple interations of Terminal Services, using more advanced home automation protocols that go beyond unidirectional X10 technology and home security applications which might push the limit of traditional residential security such as aggregating multiple home security cameras into a single web page with navigation.  I just don't know if a robust server environment is a better choice than a simple file server.

Don't get me wrong; I'd rather not spend the money  -or-  go through the learning curve. I know that a simple file server is enough for today, but the box that I'm thinking about buying is pretty expensive and I'd feel foolish if I bought for today and not for tomorrow. My goal in posting this message was to try to learn what's coming down the road so that I could make an educated decision. Does that make any sense?

[pclausen]

Blafarm, I just completed building a large media server for my house.  It contains a 2.1TB Raid (8 300GB Maxtors connected to a 3Ware 7506-8 controller).  I went with a 875 chipset mb with 1Gbps integrated LAN (Asus P4C800-E), and a 2.8GHz P4c and 2 512MB sticks of Kingston Hyper-X PC3500.

I'm running XP Pro on the machine and have no problem feeding client machines, nor simultaneous playpack in any of the 6 zones I have configured in my house.

Additionally, the media server serves up DVD and HD content to multiple htpc client around the house.  I have a 2.4GHz PC in the home theater that is connected to a Barco 1208 projector, a 800MHz PIII connected to a plasma in the living room, etc.

I use a Viewsonic AirPanel to remote desktop into the media server and control MC9 this way to control what is playing in my various zones.

I also run MC9 clients on all the htpcs, so I can connect the the media server this way and pick what to play without having to resort to the airpanel.

I recently upgraded my core network to 1Gbps, not because I ran into issues with mutliple video and audio streams over 100Mbps, but because I wanted my workstations (used to ripping DVDs) to be able to dump a session worth of DVDs (say 50GB worth of data) to the server without messing up a DVD streaming to a htpc, or music playing in one or more zones.

My point is that XP Pro is more than capable of handling almost any load, assuming you got decent hardware.  The only thing 2003 Server would offer me that would be usefull is the ability to serve up multiple remote desktop sessions at the same time, thus allowing several airpanels to do stuff on the server concurrently.  Having said that, a company called Thinsoft makes a product that will allow up to 25 simultaneous remote desktop sessions to the sever at the same time.

Btw, I use Cinemar's Lobby suite (MainLobby, DVDLobby and MusicLobby) to easily pick DVDs and/or CDs to play.  I can even launch movies on a htpc from a remote desktop connection to the media server.

I think you would be very 'future proof' by building your server around XP Pro.

[Doof]

<is thinking about how much dive gear he could have bought with that kind of money>

<is jealous>

[f1bred]

 ...The only thing 2003 Server would offer me that would be usefull is the ability to serve up multiple remote desktop sessions at the same time, thus allowing several airpanels to do stuff on the server concurrently.  Having said that, a company called Thinsoft makes a product that will allow up to 25 simultaneous remote desktop sessions to the sever at the same time...

Something else to keep in mind... It is widely reported that the next major release of Windows (Longhorn) is out in the 2005 timeframe. Therefore, Microsoft will probably release additional functionality of XP through service packs. XP Service Pack 2 is expected within the year, and it is reported that it will allow multiple Remote Desktop sessions (at least two, but I don't know how many for sure).

[blafarm]

>pclausen,
Your configuration, software and hardware, is very much what I intend to implement for myself and the sever you built is very similar to the box that I'm going to have built for me at Aberdeen. I initially thought I'd go with a 2TB product but then I decided that my obsession with uncompressed media, and the migration to HD content, might cause me to max out prematurely.

Here's the planned specs for the rig I'm ordering:  Aberdeen Terabuster: ServerWorks Grand Champion chipset, 2-3Ware 7506-8 controllers, Dual Gigabit Intel controller, CPU (to be determined), PC2100 RAM (to be determined), 16 x 1" drive bays of which I plan to initially populate 8 with 300GB Maxtor 5A300J0 drives (is that the model you used?). As I'm going to do RAID5, I've selected 300GB drives to max out the 2TB limitation of the 7506-8 controllers. Are you running JBOD or RAID5? Here's the box if you're interested: www.aberdeeninc.com/abcatg/STIRLING-S416.htm

I have a couple of question if you don't mind:

What type of CPU, RAM and Gigabit Ethernet utilization do you find when serving 6 discrete DVDs feeds (compressed or uncompressed?) to 6 zones?

Would you have changed the CPU or RAM if you knew then - what you know now?  (this explains my "to be determined" comments up top).

If you're using the 5400rpm 300GB Maxtor 5A300J0 drives, do you feel like you're close to hitting a brickwall in terms of their throughput when serving 6 zones?

If you're running RAID, is your O/S on the RAID or is it on a separate drive?

You spoke about the occasional need to move approximately 50GB of DVD rips and I was wondering if that saturated the network and caused stuttering or if your move to Gig-E was a preemptive in nature? Also, when you were at 100bt, could you actually serve uncompressed DVD to 6 discrete zones without problems and if so, were you using Switch or a Hub?

I think I've done enough research to know the MC9 and the Lobby family are the way to go but I honestly have no real hands-on experience yet. That will start later this week with MC9. As such, I don't feel like I have a good handle on how MC9 and the Lobby products can "push" media to clients when they are operated from the server, (as opposed to the client "pulling" in a traditional arrangement). I am also unclear as to how one remotely controls the client-side applications such as players/scaler applications as well as traditional electronics via IR (Girder?) from a remote desktop or terminal services connection on the server.  I'm sure all this, and more, will become apparent soon enough but if there is a simple explanation I would appreciate your insight.

I'm assuming your MC9 server lives on your server, is that right?

It sounds like you have some fairly high-end imaging products and I was wondering what kind of graphic cards you use, and what kind of cards you use for your non-theater sets. Is is possible to use an inexpensive card like a Xcard for those less critical rooms?  

Have you heard rumblings about any new applications, or feature extensions for MC9 or the Lobby family that have given you pause and caused you to have second thoughts regarding the Xp decision?

Finally, thanks for spending the time to clue me into your system and component choices.  It has been invaluable for me to hear about your first hand experiences.



>Doof, Be glad you didn't have the money to spend on an Aladin Air X NitrOx as you would be depressed, and decompressed, all over the place.


>f1bred, Thanks, I've heard about that, as well as pclausen's reference to Thinsoft's product. I think all things being equal, I'd rather have the functionality built into the OS.

[pclausen]

I got 8 Maxtor 4A300J0 drives @ 5400.  Picked them up from CompUSA for $239 during a mail-in rebate thing they had going on last month.

I'm running RAID5 so I loose 300GB to parity, but like you say, given the 2TB limit, that worked out pretty good.  Btw, windows report my dynamic shared volume at 2,099,996,200,960 bytes, so it looks like I overcame the 2TB limit somehow.

I boot from a seperate drive that contains just XP and apps.

I ran some test on my RAID5, and here are my numbers:

Sequential Read 74.4 MBytes/Sec
Sequential Write 29.2 MBytes/Sec
Random Seek + RW 4.5 Mbytes/Sec

This was when I was running the 3ware in a P3 800 board.  If we round the sequential read to 80MB/s (640Mb/s) out of the raid, barring other bottlenecks (PCI bus and Ethernet I/O) I should be able to transfer:

32 average HDTV streams (at 20Mb/s), or
23 high-quality HDTV streams (at 27Mb/s), or
106 average DVDs (at 6Mb/s), or
71 high-quality DVDs (at 9Mb/s), or
2500 average mp3s (at 256kb/s), or
444 uncompressed audio CDs (at 1.441Mb/s)

If the 3ware card is plugged into a 64bit/66MHz PCI slot, and you have integrated Gigabit Ethernet that doesn't ride the PCI bus, you just might be able to dump 640Mb/s to a 1Gb/s switch and then feed clients from there.

I haven't really had a chance to stress test the system yet since I'm still waiting on my 1Gb/s switch, but things run real well over my current 100Mb/s switched network (3Com Superstack II switch).

I'm seeing maybe 3% network utilization when streaming a DVD to a client, I would not anticipate any problems with a half dozen streams which would be the most I could ever imagine streaming at once.

When moving 50GB across the 100Mb/s connection, network utilization goes to 75-80%, but cpu remains less than 5%.  And it does not affect the ability of the server to stream lossless audio and/or video to a htpc client.

The 1Gb/s switch will be shared between the server and the workstations that I use to rip from.  The media clients (htpcs) will remain connected to the current 100Mb/s switch which in turns connects to the 1Gb/s switch.

Yes, MC9 lives on the server along with a pair of M-Audio 24/96 DiOs and the built-in SP/DIF on the motherboard.  This gives me 3 SP/DIF zones and 2 analog zones.

I talk to the server from my airpanel running the Lobby suite.  From here I can launch DVDLobby and tell it to launch a movie on one of the htpcs.  Or I can just launch MC9 and start different playlists to any of the 5 zones that eminate from the rack closet.  I can also launch MC9 on any of the media clients and they then connect to the main MC9 library on the server.  I can also launch any member of the lobby suite from these clients if I don't want to fetch the airpanel and control it that way.

It should be noted that you can't remote desktop directly to one of the clients if your intent is to launch something on the local display.  The thinsoft folks I mentioned earlier well sell a single license client to allow remote desktop access to a single client while preseving the local session.

I like the ATI cards myself.  Since the server isn't normally connected to a monitor, it just got some old AGP card in it, a Voodo5  I think.  I run a Pro-9700 MP-1 in my main htpc, and a 9200 in the htpc connected to a rear projector via s-video.  I'm not pleased with the s-video of this card, and have been told ATI aren't know for s-video quality.  Anyway, likely not a concern in your case.

I don't have any regrets from going the XP route vs. linux or 2003 server.  My environment is very stable, and I haven't had any hardware conflicts/issues.

I'm running a 2.8Ghz P4c with a Zalman 7000Cu heatsink and Kingston Hyper-X PC 3500.  I will likely play a little with overclocking, since I should be able to remain very stable deep into the 3GHz range.  MC9 will really snap then when reloading panes with my 30,000+ collection.  

Anyhow, glad you're finding my info helpfull.

[blafarm]

>pclausen,

Thank you for an exceptional post. Very informative and very timely, as I am on the eve of placing my server order.

It's funny, I can't seem to find the Maxtor 4A300J0 on their site - only the 5A300J0. Maybe it's a CompUSA-thing.

Anyway, your Sequential Read specs seem to indicate that your 5400rpm platters are performing no worse that the usable bandwidth afforded by the Gigabit Ethernet. That's really good news as being forced to use 7200rpm-250GB drives for more throughput, and losing one to parity, would be a bummer in terms of storage reduction.

BTW, which switch did you go with?

Interesting that your M-Audio lives on your server; I would have thought that you'd be obligated to use an audio interface installed on each local htpc client that's "pulling" the wav or vob file from the server. Are you indicating that it's possible to play the vob on the htpc and simultaneosly play-out the audio portion of the program on the server?  -  or maybe I'm confused and the server is actually directly feeding either your projector or plasma. I guess one other possibility is that the M-Audio's function is to feed multiple "audio only" zones that are not associated with video at all. Sorry if I'm missing the big picture on this, I'm a little green.

I'm curious to know if you are you running any PVR hardware/software, or what you are considering if you haven't pulled the trigger yet.

Finally, would you have changed the sever's CPU or RAM specs based on what you know now? Is a 2.8Ghz/1GB RAM the "sweet spot" - could you have done with less - or do you think you'll be aching for more not far down the road (not so much for serving - but maybe for apps you're running locally on the server)?

Again, you insight has been a great help and I thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I really appreciate it.

[pclausen]

I went w/ a rackmount 3Com Superstack III 8 port unmanaged switch.

The media server has audio cards in it for the whole house sound system zones.  All the amps for this purpose are located in a central location.

Each htpc has its own SP/DIF connection to the local A/V equipment.  That same local A/V equipment can also be switched to get its input from the SP/DIF feed from the media server located in the center of the house.  This is how I get around the lack of a party/sync feature in MC9.

As for PVR, I'm waiting to see what will happen with the Tivo HD.  In the meantime, I'm watching HD on my trusty DTC-100, but without the benefit of timeshifting.  I'll only be interested in the Tivo HD if it can be connected to my network so that I can control the two tuners (it might even have four) from my airpanel or a local viewing location.

Since I have DirectTV, I can't reliably use a PCI satellite tuner card, so the Tivo HD looks like an interesting option, but like I said, I'll need to add an ethernet port or USB/Ethernet adaptor, or it needs to come with a firewire port from the factory, but that is a long shot.

I think price wise the 2.8 is the best bang for the buck at the moment.  1GB is recommended to really allow XP Pro to spread its wings.  It is certainly more than enough to run MC9 and serve up files over the network.  But like you say, you never know what tomorrow might bring...

[blafarm]

Thank you. Now I understand.

That's a very clever solution, although I can see that it requires a remoteable preamp/processor/receiver that has multiple coax SP/DIF inputs. If you don't mind me asking, what are you using?

I'm a DirecTV customer as well and have been generally frustrated it's inherent distribution limitations. I found this SDI mod during my travels but it's NTSC 601 and I'd rather not get into adapting yet another standard. http://secure.cartsvr.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?category=59077&prodid=10222008

From a PVR point of view, I'm hoping that something like this gets released in a Tivo flavor...
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_BrowseCatalog-Start;sid=TfC8u_z_b-y8rMOFKGW2sLPuW1uC3k9l1pQ=?CategoryName=hav_SatelliteReceivers%2fRecorders_SatelliteReceivers&Dept=hav
...although even if it becomes available, it doesn't address the limitations of routing DVI/HDCP around the house and I'm stuck again with a hybrid system that includes analog component.

I wish someone would release a PCI card with a DVI/HDCP input (or, to be more realistic: Y/Pb/Pr) that would not only function as a capture card for HTPC-based PVRs, but could also serve and stream the input over TCP/IP for routable whole house distribution without analog wires. Kind of like this:
www.axis.com/products/cam_250s/index.htm

Oh well, life is all about compromise.

Thanks again.




 

[lee269]

My multimedia system consists of a wire connecting my PC to my amp. Its interesting to read about a really powerful/expensive solution. I dont follow all of the details but it sounds like it smokes.

It seems theres lots of useful info here. Im wondering if Jim should add this thread to the pinned FAQ one at the top, to complement Mastiffs multizone system details...

[xen-uno]

Three things come to mind when comparing workstation versus server...

1) Server supports software RAID
2) Server has nice tools for integrating a Mac into the network
3) Server has more bullet proof security (generally)

If none of these apply to your situation, or you have hardware RAID (ATA RAID controllers are very cheap), then the workstation/Pro version is the way to go.

10^-27

[BigAl]

There's some serious hardware being thrown around here.......I'm obviously not trying hard enough.

>pclausen,
noticed an airpanel in your config.  which model?  what resolution can you run at and how's performance?

Thanks,  Al.