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Author Topic: Why MC's Television Support Doesn't Work For Me  (Read 2416 times)

glynor

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Why MC's Television Support Doesn't Work For Me
« on: August 21, 2008, 09:11:27 am »

In a recent thread elsewhere, I said this...

Quote from: glynor
It was interesting looking at where MC is for TV usage.  For me, it isn't even close to "being ready" for me to replace BeyondTV or SageTV.  Now I think I need to decide if I want to move over to SageTV when I get the HD PVR box, or stick with BTV for now.  I do use MC's TV support to grab video from my webcam occasionally, and that works well.  Short of that...

I'd love it if MC eventually was able to replace this separate application.  Alas... I don't think it is going to get anywhere near the resource allocation it would need to get up to speed at this point.  I need way too much, the team is too small (and has too many other pots in the fire), and MC is way too far behind (in this one limited regard, of course).

To which Matt responded...

Quote from: Matt
You might start a thread and list why you think this.

Media Center has been my only TV at home for years.  I watch a lot of football on a projector, and consider it to have appliance-quality stability.  The look-n-feel could use improvement in areas, but I would say the same about Sage.

So, this is my thread.  I'm still collecting my thoughts, but my initial response in the above quoted thread was this (just to give you the full backstory)...

Quote from: glynor
Quote from: Matt
You might start a thread and list why you think this.

I think I will, if you'd like to see it.

Quote from: Matt
I watch a lot of football on a projector, and consider it to have appliance-quality stability.  The look-n-feel could use improvement in areas, but I would say the same about Sage.

Don't disagree with either of these points at all.  I'm certainly not happy with my choice of BTV or SageTV!  Both of them are utter dreck compared to what you guys could achieve if you put your minds to it, I'm quite sure.  If you did, you could charge for it too... I'd certainly happily give you the $50-70 price these applications command.

That said... It currently isn't even close, and it isn't just about look and feel (though it is that too).

So there's the backstory.  I'm going to start collecting my thoughts on the answer to Matt's question.  It might take a while, but feel free to comment on your own thoughts in this regard if you so choose.
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glynor

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Re: Why MC's Television Support Doesn't Work For Me
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2008, 09:33:57 am »

For a little more background... This is my current setup:

Displays:
--------
Home Television: 42" 1080p LCD
NOTE: It is used primarily with my HTPC.  I do have it connected directly to my cable box, but only for backup.  I don't use it this way more than once or twice a year.

I'm concentrating mostly on my home setup, but I also have an Auditorium Setup at my work (and have a separate license for MC for there):
Christie DS+305 DLP Projector (1400x1050 resolution), rear projected
52" 1080p LCD
I do also have a TV Tuner device there (a Plextor external box that does hardware MPEG-4 encoding).  It is currently connected to a Mac, but I plan to move this to my Windows/MC12 box eventually.

HTPC Setup:
------------
3.02 GHz Core2 Duo on a P35 Motherboard
4GB RAM
AMD HD3850 512MB Video Card

Tuner Cards:
Sapphire ATI Theater 550 PCI Analog Tuner Card (connected to cable coax)
Sapphire ATI Theater Pro 650 Analog/Digital Tuner Card (connected via S-Video to Cable Box)
Coming Soon: Hauppauge HD PVR - http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html

Media Storage Drives:
Local: 2x750GB (separate, non-RAID) - used exclusively for TV Recording and Timeshifting
Network: 3x750GB (RAID 5) - used for long-term media storage.  Main media library managed by MC.

Other Hardware:
Snapstream Firefly Remote
USB-UIRT (for controlling my cable box)
Motorola HD Cable Set-Top Box
DirecTV HD Set-Top Box (subscription currently canceled, but I could switch back at any time)

Software:
OS: XP SP3 (I haven't moved to Vista64 because the current system works and is stable)
DVR: BeyondTV 4.8.2
Other Media Management: MC12
Remote Control Management: Girder 4

Portable Devices:
iPhone 3G 16GB (OS 2.0.2)
iPod Nano 3rdGen (current firmware)
(I used to have a Sandisk Sansa e270 which we loved, but we left it on a plane. Doh!)

Other Devices
--------------

At work I have these capture devices:

Canopus (now Grass Valley) ADVC-500 (Similar to the current ADVC-700): DV and DVCPro Analog-Digital converter. (Not supported by either BTV or SageTV)
Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro: Low-cost HDMI and Component Input/Output card with 4:4:4 color space support. (SageTV supports with some hacks, much more challenging for BTV.)
Plextor PX-TV402U: External USB TV Tuner with hardware XviD-style MPEG-4 encoding (and a hardware MPEG-2 encoder as well). (Fully supported by both BTV and SageTV.)
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glynor

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Re: Why MC's Television Support Doesn't Work For Me
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2008, 11:10:30 am »

Okay... Now onto my needs from a DVR Application.  I'll try to organize this (somewhat) into categories to make it easier to grep.

Now I'm just going to "get into it"...  I'm just going to list what I need.  In almost all cases, both BeyondTV and SageTV (which I may move to in the future) currently provide this support and it works well.  If not, it will be noted.  There are other DVR Applications out there (most notably, Windows MCE) which provide a subset of these abilities.

Stability
--------------------------


1. Stability is the one place where I have few (if any) concerns over MC.  However, I don't feel necessarily that it is any more or less stable than my current solution (BeyondTV).  I would say both are very close to "appliance class stability".  MC may have a very slight edge in overall stability, but in the ways BTV needs to work (not missing recordings and playback quality) It Just Works.

NOTE: BTV uses a whole pile of system services which are slow to start and annoying.  They do crash occasionally (I'd say two-three times per month with the current release) but it has a service manager that catches these crashes and automatically restarts them. I don't need to reboot the system generally on BTV's behalf (patch Tuesday comes once a month and makes me reboot then anyway).  Most importantly, it doesn't miss scheduled recordings.  I've been using this system (more or less, the hardware is constantly shifting) for almost 3 years.

I'd call this a tie overall.  They're both very good, maybe a slight edge to MC, but only slight.

Integrated Program Guide
--------------------------------------------


1. A fully integrated Program Guide which displays shows in a time grid, similar to what is provided by DirecTV or all Digital Cable systems.



2. Needs to include full "program info" including show synopsis, episode name, original air date, series title.  Movies need to be classified into rough Genres (the EPG feeds provide this, though it stinks).  Sports events should be categorized into sport and by team (BTV doesn't do by team).  This info needs to be easily accessible by simply "clicking" on the program in the grid or anywhere else you find the show (via searching or category browsing described below).

3. Full support for my cable system, including automatically grabbing my channel lineup (based on entering a zip code and picking a cable provider), including both analog and digital cable system (and these need to be separate choices because some tuners are analog and some are connected to the digital cable STB).  DirecTV and OTA ATSC support is required as well (I'm not using these currently, but that could change at any time and I need to not be locked in because of my software solution).

4. Fully searchable program information, including Title and Keyword search.  Ability to save and "subscribe" to the searches, so I can search for "Patriots Football" save it, and it'll automatically record any Patriots Football game or any program that includes "Patriots" and "Football" in the summary.

5. Browse by category.  Instead of the normal Grid View, an alternate method of "browsing" similar to Panes in MC.  Browse by sporting events, movies, tv shows, news, etc.

6. Customizable channel lineup on a per-input basis.  Need to be able to eliminate channels I don't get (or don't care about) from my Channel Guide, so I never see them.  I also need to be able to tell the system that my HD channels or Digital Cable channels only work on certain capture devices and not others.

Intelligent Recording Support:
----------------------------------------------


1. Ability to browse the Program Guide (forward and back in time) and choose shows to record based on the program, not the arbitrary channel number.  Multiple capture devices and sources are irrelevant, as it shows one unified program guide (even if some channels come from an antenna, some from DirecTV Satellite, and still others from Cable TV).  OTA Digital channels are represented cleanly as well and integrated as part of the guide.

2. TV Show "subscription" support: single occurrence, all first run episodes, all episodes, all episodes on multiple channels (record Law and Order on both NBC and reruns on USA and TNT), for all subscriptions the ability to set priority to/against certain channels (BTV doesn't do this, Sage does) so that I can tell it to "prefer HD channels" or "avoid HD channels" depending on the show.

3. Movie and Event recordings: ability to say "record this show/movie/event within 30/60/90 days" and have it just figure it out.

3. Full control over recording quality including: multiple codec support (encode and decode), full support for hardware encoding engines in capture cards, bitrates and resolutions (with easy-to-use Good/Better/Best presets, but the ability to get in there and set things manually too if desired).  These settings need to be applicable on a per-recording (or per-subscription) basis.

4. Web UI to allow me to manage recordings from remote locations (I can go in and browse this same program grid, schedule recordings, and modify existing schedules/subscriptions completely via the web from my office computer with BTV).

5. Full and easy-to-use Prioritization for these subscriptions.  I want to be able to set "Big Love" and "Lost" to ALWAYS RECORD, and I don't want The Daily Show (which airs multiple times per day anyway) to intercept it.  Smart and automatic use of multiple tuners/encoding cards to resolve conflicts automatically.  (BTV has this, but honestly it could be a LOT better.  SageTV has better priority support including a "prefer first-run airings" setting which can be applied on a per-subscription basis.)

6. Automatic Overlap detection.  I'll let Snapstream explain: "If a higher priority show is being recorded and runs up to five minutes over it will continue recording before moving on to the next recording. So if Lost ends at 8:03 PM and you have a lower priority scheduled recording to begin at 8:00 pm, Beyond TV will continue recording the higher priority recording of Lost before starting the 8:00 PM recording."  This takes multiple tuners into account, and also can "tell" if a show runs back-to-back with another scheduled recording.  This has improved dramatically with the most recent couple of versions of BTV.

7. Full schedule Tweaking support.  The guide says the show ends at 10pm, but your affiliate always delays its start time for some station break or something and it doesn't really end until 10:06pm?  That's okay, set the subscription to "start on time" and "end 8 minutes late" (or start 5 minutes early and end 5 minutes early).  These settings can be added on a per-subscription or global basis (or both).

8. "Back Recording".  Started watching a show and after 15 minutes you wished you had recorded it?  Just hit record and the existing buffer will automatically become part of the new recording as though you had scheduled it all along.  I use this all the time.  I'm watching the Olympics and my wife comes in to talk to me, so I hit pause.  After talking to her for a while, I realize this is going to take longer than I had first thought so I just hit the Record button on the remote.  It asks if I want to schedule recurring or just this instance.  I hit this instance and it automatically includes the full, existing timeshifting buffer (not from the moment I hit pause, but from the first moment I started watching the channel) in the recording.  I can close out of BTV and it keeps on recording.

9. Full HD Support including OTA via a Digital HD Tuner and via devices like the Hauppauge HD PVR and Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro.  (BTV doesn't support the Intensity Pro, SageTV does but it takes some hacking.  Both now support the new Hauppauge HD PVR.)

10. Ability to "prioritize" certain capture devices over others both globally and on a per-show basis (so that whenever possible it uses my highest-quality HD Capture device first, but when there is a conflict between two recordings Lost always records using the highest quality HD-supporting capture device and "The Daily Show" uses the old crappy analog capture card).

11. The Web UI should have an optimized for mobile use version.  My BTV web UI has a special "mobile" version, like lots of web sites, that I can easily use from my iPhone.

12. Minimum supported recording formats: MPEG-2 (including hardware encoder support, of course), WMV, XviD/DivX AVI (including hardware support), and H264 (including hardware support).

13. Drive Pooling.  I have those two 750GB drives.  They aren't in a RAID config or anything complicated.  Just plain vanilla NTFS formatted drives.  But BTV "sees" them as one unified recording pool and automatically uses them both (you can go in and add as many "recording paths" as you want).  It actually "levels" the usage of these drives in a smart manner as well so that all your eggs aren't in one basket.

14. Free space management and automatic recording "expiration" (including the above mentioned Drive Pooling support).  I can set individual recordings (after the fact) or subscriptions (beforehand) to different levels of "importance".  EG: Never Delete or Delete when Needed (SageTV has more granular control including an intermediary "Prefer not to Delete" option).  That way, if I run out of space because I have 10 million recordings of The Family Guy, it won't "not record" the new episode of True Blood on HBO because it thinks it is out of space.  It'll just delete "just what is needed", preferring to delete things that are marked as "watched" over things that are marked as "unwatched".  However, really important recordings can be marked as "Never Delete" and they'll be protected (it actually marks them as read-only in the system too).

That finishes those two sections (unless I think of more as I go)... There's more to come, but I need more time.
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skeeterfood

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Re: Why MC's Television Support Doesn't Work For Me
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2008, 03:29:37 pm »

My system:
Sony KDS-55A2000 SXRD 55" Rear-projection TV (1080p60)
Denon 989 receiver
Motorola DC2524 Digital Cable Box (non-HD)
2 ReplayTV 5500s (Main one is currently dead until replacement HD arrives)
HTPC
  * Intel Pentium Dual Core E2140 (overclocked to 2.2Ghz) on an Intel G965 Express Motherboard
  * 2GB RAM
  * Nvidia 8400GS PCI-E Video Card
  * Hauppauge PVR-150 PCI MPEG-2 Capture Card (S-Video & Audio connected from Digital Cable Box.  Also has IR receiver and IR blaster used to change channels on Digital Cable Box)
  * 160GB OS Drive/Temp Space
  * 750GB Media Drive (Audio/Images backed up to another machine)
Harmony 550 Remote (One remote to rule them all!)
  * Windows XP SP3
  * DVR: GB-PVR
  * Other Media: MC
  * Remote Control: EventGhost

Integrated Programming Guide
--------------------------
GB-PVR's program guide is a bit more primitive, but it's still got everything Glynor listed:

Since the software is free, it doesn't come with a program guide supplier, but there are many ways to get the data and all GB-PVR cares about in the end is that it's in XMLTV format.

The ReplayTV's IPG is even more primitive and the guide data costs $12.95/month.  Also, you have to schedule shows on a specific machine, which can be a pain.


Automatic Commercial Skip/Removal
--------------------------
GB-PVR uses an external program (comskip or ShowAnalyzer) to automatically analyze the recorded show and mark the commercials in a text file and optionally strip them from the video.  It's not 100%, so I prefer to leave in the commercials and enable the automatic skip option.  When the GB-PVR player gets to a marked commercial, it automatically skips over it, but you can skip backward and forward manually if it messes up.

Here's a pic of a show with commercials analyzed:

The dark green portions are commercials.

The ReplayTV is essentially the same, but without the removal option.

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glynor

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Re: Why MC's Television Support Doesn't Work For Me
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2008, 04:00:47 pm »

Thanks for the additions!  So you know, I am getting there.  I'm busy until later tonight though so the rest of my list has to wait until much later on.

ComSkip is definitely on my list.  BTV and Sage both do a very nice job with this.  Some sort of automatic recompression system, with iPod/iPhone compatible H264 options (and simple disk saving XviD/DivX options) is on my list as well, along with 10-foot UI improvements and integrated USB-UIRT control of external set-top boxes (my cable box and DirecTV boxes and whatnot).

GB-PVR is nice, but has some klunkiness as well.  I'd be interested in the XMLTV options you mention that are "widely available" and finding out more (I don't know much).  One point I was going to make later on is that I wouldn't mind paying extra for these features (particularly program guide data).  However, I'd really prefer:

No monthly fees.  I'd rather pay $80 once than a few bucks a month.  If I wanted monthly fees, I'd just buy a Tivo or rent a DVR from the cable company.  Perhaps an option for a monthly fee for those who would prefer them might be good.

To have JRiver be the service provider.  I don't want to have to worry about some third party company that may or may not stay in business being able to take down the usability of my TV system.  For it to be an "appliance replacement" it needs to be an all-in-one deal.  For me, that's why a system like GB-PVR (or MythTV) was never appetizing.
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glynor

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Re: Why MC's Television Support Doesn't Work For Me
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2008, 10:52:34 pm »

I'm too tired to finish this tonight.  There is more, but I got most of the major stuff.  Just the couple of things I listed above in a bit more detail, placeshifting, and the hardware support. 

One thing I did want to say though... I realize that the above (especially if you skip reading through the background I gave) may seem a bit negative about MC.  I don't want it to seem that way at all!  The list of ways in which MC is far, far better than any of the DVR Applications I've used (and especially BTV) would fill multiple pages of posts.  I'm only addressing this one limited area of a HTPC usage scenario.

MC just isn't a Tivo or ReplayTV replacement.  That's never been it's strength, or really it's goal I think.  It does have some reasonably competent "TV" replacement functionality and even throws in Timeshifting and scheduled recording.  If all you're looking to do is make your computer work like your regular old TV would, then it'll probably fit the bill if you have supported hardware.

Unfortunately, acting as a DVR is something that Windows Media Center Edition does have, and MCE is a major competitor in the space.  Does MCE support all of the things above I've listed?  Absolutely not.  Does it support quite a few?  Yes, it does.  MCE is horribly broken and DRM laden and I'd never use it, but it can act as a reasonably competent DVR.  And lots of people have it already on their machines if they bought them from Dell or HP.

Basically, like I said above... I just wish MC did handle all these things, because in the end they'd do so much better at it.  I am, by no means, extremely happy with my BeyondTV setup.  It is pretty good, but I want to be able to use the power of MC and throw everything that it brings with it at the "problem" of a DVR.
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rpalmer68

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Re: Why MC's Television Support Doesn't Work For Me
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2008, 06:08:48 am »

I've been using MC as my TV viewing software for a while now. 

I use Webscheduler Pro for my recording/scheduling and Girder5 with netremote for the automation/remote control functionality.

Although MC is pretty basic in it's PVR functionality at this stage webscheduler fills the gaps for me and it all hangs together pretty nicely most of the time.

The things I'd like to see improved/added within MC are;

1) Improved performance in seeking when timeshifting, this is really quite sluggih compared to other TV apps.
2) Ability to burn video files I have recorded to DVD from Theter View, with menus created on the DVD.
3) Automatic advert skipping using Comskip/ShowAnalyser files when playing back recorded files.
4) If I delete a video file, MC would automatically remove the matching comskip file as well.

For me the epg side of things isn't that important as Webscheduler handles it well for me with overlap handling and multi-tuner support etc, but of course if it was integrated into MC (and available in Theater View) and was as reliable as webscheduler I wouldn't complain.


Richard
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