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Author Topic: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?  (Read 15707 times)

fitbrit

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Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« on: September 01, 2011, 06:28:40 pm »

A user in the AVSforum JRiver thread is having issues having only forced subtitles for non-English parts of movies showing in MC. He says the same files behave as expected with his Popcorn Hour. For anyone using forced subtitles only, do you have an issue with this?
It would appear that the settings are pretty straightforward in MC options, but how do forced subtitles work when a movie switches to a non-default language temporarily?
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2011, 07:29:45 pm »

There's a known issue with XP (which uses VMR9) and subtitles we're working on.  I wonder if this could explain it?

If you pick Red October HQ instead it will use madVR instead, and work around this issue.
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fitbrit

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2011, 08:40:04 pm »

Thanks, Matt. The user has Win7 as do I. I don't know of any files that I may have that for sure have forced subtitles that are not hardcoded already.
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2011, 08:47:28 pm »

I just tested the Green Zone Blu-ray (as MKV) and forced subs work for me.

You should see the forced sub option selected in the subtitle menu.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

fitbrit

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2011, 08:52:44 pm »

I just tested the Green Zone Blu-ray (as MKV) and forced subs work for me.

You should see the forced sub option selected in the subtitle menu.

In my X-Men First Class rip, I see the Forced subs option, but they don't appear for the German parts; I can choose English subs and they work for everything including the German. Do you think this hasn't been ripped properly?
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2011, 09:06:22 pm »

Unfortunately I don't know what's happening.  Like I said, it's working for me.

Is anyone else having an issue with forced subs?  Any other clues?
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Hendrik

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 02:31:48 am »

Not every Blu-ray disc contains the forced subtitles in such a format that LAV Splitter can automatically detect them.

There is two (or three) types of forced subtitles:

1)
The forced subtitles are mixed with the normal subtitles into the same track, and every forced subtitle frame is marked specifically as a forced frame.
This is the type LAV Splitter can automatically process, and filter the forced subs from that stream.

Examples: Avatar

2)
There is two tracks. One with full subs (including forced), and one with only forced subs. Sadly the forced frames are not tagged like in type 1.
For this type, LAV Splitter cannot do anything for you, sadly. Blu-rays hide the information which stream is the right one deep in the menu system.

Examples. LOTRO:EE

3)
Forced subs are directly burned into the image.
Obviously, nothing to do here, but thats also rather rare.


In conclusion:
Not every disc will work "out of the box". In my experience however, the first kind is more common then the second. The thing is that without LAV Splitter it was previously impossible to watch only the forced subs from a type 1 disc without using a tool to separate the tracks before (MakeMKV can do that, afaik). For type 2 discs (or ripped as such), you still need to manually select the proper track. Usually there is only two or three tracks of the appropriate language, full subs, forced subs and maybe commentary subs.

I realize, it isn't the smoothest experience if you only find out that the stream isn't right once a subtitle frame failed to show up, but right now, thats all we got.
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fitbrit

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 05:13:26 pm »

Thanks for the answer, Nev, and also for improving the state of the art of what we as HTPC owners can now do. :)
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Fast Fizzy

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2011, 06:00:48 pm »

firbrit, thanks for bringing this issue to the devs here.

As I understand the answers, it is NOT currently possible to have automatic generation of a forced subtitle track embedded in an MKV container?

This does not refer to a Blu-ray disc with PGS subtitles, BTW.  The file config I am referring to is a MKV container with a text subtitle track (usually .srt) muxed in with a "forced flag" set using MKVMerge.

I don't know if it helps anyone working on this player, but XBMC does recognize this type of flag and will "force" a subtitle stream when the default subtitle setting is "off".  XBMC is open source.  Perhaps one of the smart kids can look at how that works and see if something similar can be done with J River.  Other than this one feature, J River is easily the best HD player I have come across and I'd love to make it my default player on the HTPC I've recently built.  I will likely pay for the program regardless, as playback quality with HD audio is the best I have found, but I hope you guys will endeavor to bring this one seemingly small, but really nice feature to J River.
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2011, 06:06:22 pm »

Does the subtitle stream for the embedded text SRT subtitle appear in the right-click "Subtitles" menu while playing?  Is the only problem that it's not selected by default, or is the problem that it's not even available?

Does anyone have a small sample with an embedded SRT that has the forced flag set?

I'm not really sure how there'd be a "forced flag" for the SRT data itself since it's so simple:
http://matroska.org/technical/specs/subtitles/srt.html

Thanks for any help.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Fast Fizzy

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2011, 08:01:55 pm »

Yes, the subtitle stream is available to be manually selected.  The issue is that one has to manually select it.  By definition, a "forced" stream should override the player default setting when the flag is present.  That is what is not happening.

I'll see if I can create a small MKV file with a forced stream.  I have a premium Netload account so I'll post a link if I can get something uploaded.
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2011, 08:16:18 pm »

I'll see if I can create a small MKV file with a forced stream.  I have a premium Netload account so I'll post a link if I can get something uploaded.

Thank you.

Also, does the name of the stream hint that it's forced?  For example, is it called something like "English (forced)" so that we could just key off the name?
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Fast Fizzy

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2011, 08:36:32 pm »

Here is a (relatively) small video file with a forced .srt stream imbedded.  Pay no attention to the text.  I just grabbed a sub file I had and edited it down to a few lines and muxed it into a different file.

http://www.netload.in/datei620OYr7IRt/Looney Tunes - Fur Of Flying.mkv.htm

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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2011, 09:37:24 pm »

Thanks for the sample file.

I think it's probably as simple as selecting a stream with a name that ends with [forced] or [default,forced] by default.  If there are other common names, please let me know.

I'm out next week, but should be able to get the subtitle engine updated the following week to handle this case better.

Thanks again.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Fast Fizzy

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2011, 07:07:19 am »

Quote
I think it's probably as simple as selecting a stream with a name that ends with [forced] or [default,forced] by default.  If there are other common names, please let me know.

I hope it does turn out to be an easy fix.  BTW, if you are seeing the term "[forced]" in that file I uploaded, that would have been a tag added by MKVMerge.  It sounds like this is how the flagging works when one selects the "forced" option in the program.

One more thing, off topic for this thread, though.  I sat down to watch a full movie last night.  It was a full Blu-ray remux in MKV with DTS-HD audio.  I was getting what appeared to be dropped frames.  Checked other files and the same thing.  I'm using the recommended "Red October" renderer setting.  Is there other settings I should look at, or a horsepower issue with hardware?  CPU is Intel Core 2 Duo E4400 with ViiV processing and 4 GB memory running Win 7 32-bit, GPU is Nvidia Geforce GT 430.

EDIT:

I've been messing around this morning and it appears the issue is the player is playing the video with too slow frame rate.  Looking at the quality display of the advanced renderer, the average frame rate achieved is ~23.93.  That's too slow.  Should be more like 23.98.
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2011, 12:13:07 pm »

Coming in the next build:
Changed: Media Center is better at automatically selecting forced subtitle streams in videos.

Please let us know if there are still videos that have problems once a new build is available.

Thanks.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

steelman1991

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2011, 08:57:23 am »

Matt - I am curious what build 16.0.176 brings to the table regarding 'forced subtitles' as in my config, MC still fails to recognise a forced subtitle track from an MKV.

I would expect and I assume others will be the same, that if I turn off subtitle loading from MC that irrespective of that command, the 'forced' subtitle, as defined in the MKV would be automatically loaded - as I say irrespective of the global setting. This is not happening - at least for me and never has, though I believe a user at AVS has had success with previous builds. To get forced subtitles to load I have to have the subtitle setting 'on' which of course loads all available subtitles and displays the default subtitle - which in most if not all cases is not the 'forced' track.

Any suggestions, or comments gladly received.
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2011, 09:30:36 am »

What are the exact names of of the forced subtitle streams that are not getting automatically selected (as shown in the right-click menu when playing)?

Thanks.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

steelman1991

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2011, 10:41:36 am »

Matt - my sincere apologies and a large helping of humble pie for me. I just went back into MC to get the information you requested and they work. Just checked all the movies I have with 'forced subs' and all work perfectly and in the manner expected (Globally switched off - loading forced track)

I could have sworn that earlier today they didn't  :-[

Great job and thanks for the swift reply and the work in having these recognised. Apologies again.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2011, 11:55:18 am »

Hi guys,

I recently became an MC16 user about 4 weeks ago. I rip all of my Blu-rays, demux and transcode using eac3to, change subtitle format using BdSup2Sub, and then remux using Mkvmerge. When I process subs through BDSup2sub, I always create a separate subtitle stream for "forced" subs regardless of whether the forced subs were mixed in with the regular subs or not. When I remux with Mkvmerge, I always mark the regular subs as default=no and forced=no, and I mark the forced track as default=yes and forced=yes.

For the first few weeks that I was running MC16 (using RO HQ), MC16 recognized the forced sub track and displayed them correctly. This week when I tried a movie with forced subs, they no longer were displayed by default, even though when I right clicked on the playing video and navigated to subtitles, the "Forced subtitles (auto)" selection was properly selected. I could get the forced track to play properly by selecting the track manually, but this was not my experience until recently. Worse than this, the subtitles are now being displayed in the wrong place. Instead of being centered horizontally at the bottom of the screen, the subs are now centered vertically and on the left side of the screen.

I don't know what has changed recently, but what was formerly working fine is now broken. I have 2 machines, both running Win7 64 bit, behaving exactly the same. I tried updating MC16 to v16.0.176, but the problem persists.

Edit: Reverting back to v16.0.128 fixed the location problem (they are now back on the bottom of the screen), and it also fixed the size of the subs (which I had not realized was also broken in 16.0.176). I can not get MC16 to recognize the forced flag like it did previously, though.
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2011, 12:27:07 pm »

Hi guys,

I recently became an MC16 user about 4 weeks ago. I rip all of my Blu-rays, demux and transcode using eac3to, change subtitle format using BdSup2Sub, and then remux using Mkvmerge. When I process subs through BDSup2sub, I always create a separate subtitle stream for "forced" subs regardless of whether the forced subs were mixed in with the regular subs or not. When I remux with Mkvmerge, I always mark the regular subs as default=no and forced=no, and I mark the forced track as default=yes and forced=yes.

For the first few weeks that I was running MC16 (using RO HQ), MC16 recognized the forced sub track and displayed them correctly. This week when I tried a movie with forced subs, they no longer were displayed by default, even though when I right clicked on the playing video and navigated to subtitles, the "Forced subtitles (auto)" selection was properly selected. I could get the forced track to play properly by selecting the track manually, but this was not my experience until recently. Worse than this, the subtitles are now being displayed in the wrong place. Instead of being centered horizontally at the bottom of the screen, the subs are now centered vertically and on the left side of the screen.

I don't know what has changed recently, but what was formerly working fine is now broken. I have 2 machines, both running Win7 64 bit, behaving exactly the same. I tried updating MC16 to v16.0.176, but the problem persists.

Edit: Reverting back to v16.0.128 fixed the location problem (they are now back on the bottom of the screen), and it also fixed the size of the subs (which I had not realized was also broken in 16.0.176). I can not get MC16 to recognize the forced flag like it did previously, though.

Welcome to Interact!

To make sure I understand, you see that "Forced Subtitles (auto)" is selected in the menu with a checkmark, but the subtitles don't appear.  Then you click the menu item again, and it stays checked but subtitles start working?  What happens if you restart playback after that?

Are you using Red October in Options > Video?  Does Red October Standard change anything?

Is there any way you could provide a sample file?  It might be something particular to the muxing.  I just tested Green Zone (Blu-ray as MKV) and the forced subtitles seemed to work as expected.

Thanks.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2011, 12:31:46 pm »

Does MC16 "remember" the chosen subtitle stream from one .MKV to another? That is, If I choose sub stream #1 on Movie #1 and sub stream #5 on movie #2, will MC16 automatically go to those streams the next time I play those movies? If so, this might be why I thought that the forced flag was being recognized properly. When I play a movie that has no forced sub stream, when I right click on the video to check what it is playing, I can see "Forced Subtitles (auto)" selected and no subtitles are being displayed (correct behavior). When I play back an .MKV with a forced sub stream, when I right click I can see "Sub 1 (forced [eng] (vobsub) [default,forced]" selected and the forced subs are being properly displayed. If I move the selection to "Forced subtitles (auto)" the subs are no longer displayed. I am now thinking that when I test my remuxes, I manually selected "Sub 1 (forced [eng] (vobsub) [default,forced]" and when I later watch the movie in its entirety, MC16 is remembering my previous selection and choosing the correct stream to display. For me, this is acceptable, but it would still be better if MC16 would simply recognize the forced flag properly, like Zoomplayer does with its default decoders.

BTW, v16.0.128 seems to be the last version that displays the subs in the correct location and at the proper size.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2011, 12:42:13 pm »

Quote
Are you using Red October in Options > Video?  Does Red October Standard change anything?
I get exactly the same behavior with either RO standard or RO HQ.
Quote
I just tested Green Zone (Blu-ray as MKV) and the forced subtitles seemed to work as expected.
Are the forced subs mixed in with the regular subs or are they in a separate stream? According to Nev, if they are mixed in with the regular subs, then LAV splitter will recognize and honor the forced flag, but if the forced subs are in a separate stream, LAV splitter will not (if I understood correctly). My subs are always in a separate stream.

Edit: I think Green Zone subs are burned into the video...:)
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steelman1991

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2011, 01:09:48 pm »

Mine are muxed into the MKV file - are you saying that yours are stored externally?

I thought you said in your earlier post that you remuxed them to the MKV.

If they are why not just remux them with the original audio and video?
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2011, 02:36:14 pm »

Quote
Mine are muxed into the MKV file - are you saying that yours are stored externally?
Mine are muxed into an .MKV file, just like yours...that is what Mkvmerge does...:)

Within a given .MKV, there are 2 subtitle streams...one for regular subs and one for forced subs. If the movie does not contain any forced subs, then I only have 1 subtitle stream.
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steelman1991

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2011, 02:50:51 pm »

Realised what you meant on re-reading  :)

My subs are same - all are seperate streams, none mixed with regular subs. The only thing I did differently today was to set the LAV Splitter to 'forced only'. While playing a file right click, choose LAV Splitter and amend accordingly - mine was set to load all subtitles.
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2011, 03:05:17 pm »

Does MC16 "remember" the chosen subtitle stream from one .MKV to another?

Yes.


Quote
When I play a movie that has no forced sub stream, when I right click on the video to check what it is playing, I can see "Forced Subtitles (auto)" selected and no subtitles are being displayed (correct behavior).  When I play back an .MKV with a forced sub stream, when I right click I can see "Sub 1 (forced [eng] (vobsub) [default,forced]" selected and the forced subs are being properly displayed. If I move the selection to "Forced subtitles (auto)" the subs are no longer displayed.

So is the problem that "Forced subtitles (auto)" is given priority over a stream named "Sub 1 (forced [eng] (vobsub) [default,forced]" when selecting a default subtitle stream?

As for subtitle positioning, this hasn't been a common problem.  Any chance you could provide a sample file?

Thanks.

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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2011, 06:39:42 pm »

Quote
While playing a file right click, choose LAV Splitter and amend accordingly - mine was set to load all subtitles.
When I right click, go to "DirectShow Filters" and then choose madVR, madVR opens a settings window. When I right click, go to "DirectShow" filters" and then choose "LAV Source Splitter" nothing happens (no settings window opens). I have been trying to figure out how to get to the LAV Source Splitter settings, but I can not find anything that works. Once again, this behavior is consistent with both of my machines.
Quote
So is the problem that "Forced subtitles (auto)" is given priority over a stream named "Sub 1 (forced [eng] (vobsub) [default,forced]" when selecting a default subtitle stream?
No. The problem is that I expect "Forced subtitles (auto)" to display the forced subtitle track without any intervention from me. In other words, the subs should be forced on me, like the name implies...:)
Quote
As for subtitle positioning, this hasn't been a common problem.  Any chance you could provide a sample file?
Yes, where do you want me to upload it?
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2011, 07:23:24 pm »

When I right click, go to "DirectShow Filters" and then choose madVR, madVR opens a settings window. When I right click, go to "DirectShow" filters" and then choose "LAV Source Splitter" nothing happens (no settings window opens). I have been trying to figure out how to get to the LAV Source Splitter settings, but I can not find anything that works. Once again, this behavior is consistent with both of my machines.

If you use Red October (recommended), there's no need to configure filters.  In the case of LAV, it is configured automatically by Media Center so user settings will be ignored.


Quote
No. The problem is that I expect "Forced subtitles (auto)" to display the forced subtitle track without any intervention from me. In other words, the subs should be forced on me, like the name implies...:)

I'm still a little unclear if picking "Forced subtitles (auto)" again makes it start working, or if that selection simply never works?  If it never works, hopefully a sample file will show why.  We might need Nev's help, but first let's get a file where we can both see the same thing.

JRiver doesn't offer upload space, but you could try a free service like Hotfile.com or a Microsoft Sky Drive.

Thanks.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2011, 08:22:22 pm »

Quote
I'm still a little unclear if picking "Forced subtitles (auto)" again makes it start working, or if that selection simply never works?  If it never works, hopefully a sample file will show why.  We might need Nev's help, but first let's get a file where we can both see the same thing.
It never works...and the behavior is consistent with Nev's post earlier in this thread. The "workaround" (the fact that MC16 remembers subtitles stream settings) is good enough for me. I just want the subs to appear in the right place and at the right size and I will be happy enough.
Quote
JRiver doesn't offer upload space, but you could try a free service like Hotfile.com or a Microsoft Sky Drive.
Ok, I will see what I can. If it helps, here is a complete explanation of how I handle subtitles:

1. I demux the subs from the original stream usins Eac3to...this provides me with a PGS stream with the .SUP file extension.
2. I load the .SUP file into BDSup2Sub, use the "move" function to "move inside bounds" of a 2.35:1 AR Screen Ratio (so that the subs do not appear outside of the video area on my 2.35:1 screen), and then save the file as a VobSub (.IDX) file.
3. So now I have 2 streams - the original in .SUP format and the new, moved .IDX format stream....both streams, when remuxed using Mkvmerge, are the correct size and in the correct place.
4. If the title has forced subs, I either extract them from the normal subs (again using BDSup2Sub) or simply load them into BDSup2Sub if the BD contained a separate forced sub track. THEN I CONVERT THE RESOLUTION OF THE FORCED SUBS TO NTSC (720X480), and save them. The reason that I convert the resolution is because that is the only way, in the past, that the same forced sub track could be utilized by both my SageTV HD300 (it crashes if the .IDX subs are in a resolution higher than 720X480) and by MPC-HC (it doesn't care what the resolution is of the .IDX subs), and I set both flags to default=yes and forced=yes in Mkvmerge. Neither the HD300 nor MPC-HD recognize the forced flags, and I thought that JRMC16 was recognizing them, but now I know I am incorrect - none of the players except Zoomplayer recognize the forced flag properly.
5. So, when I play back either of the 2 "normal sub streams" (the full .SUP file and the full .IDX file, remuxed into the .MKV) in JRMC16, everything plays fine...the subs are in the right place and are the right size.
6. The separate "forced" sub stream is the problem. In version 16.0.128, the 720X480 forced sub stream plays correctly, just like the 2 normal streams, but in every version of MC SINCE that version, the 720X480 subs are now being displayed much smaller and in the wrong place. It almost seems as if the newer builds of MC16 are now painting the subs on a 720X480 screen located in the upper left hand corner of my full 1920X1080 screen. In other words, take your 1920 pixels going from left to right....start counting 720 pixels from the left, and when you get there call that pixel the right edge of the screen. Do the same vertically...start at the upper left hand corner and count 480 pixels down and call that the bottom of the screen. Connect the four corners and you now have a 720X480 area within the full 1920X1080 area. Now paint the 720X480 subs on that mini screen as if it were the whole screen. The subs appear to me to be painted on the bottom center of that mini screen and are being painted in a size that is correct for that small screen. Whatever has changed regarding the painting of the subs on the screen after version 16.0.128 is causing the problem, where in version 16.0.128 the 720X480 subs were being painted correctly. They used to be scaled to the new screen size (1920X1080), but now they are being painted on the smaller screen (720X480) within a screen.

Does this make any sense???
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2011, 08:34:52 pm »

Bob, you're describing a pretty complicated ingestion process.  Did you know Media Center can shift the subtitles for you (and remember the shift between plays)?  I think that might remove the need to do all that processing.


4. If the title has forced subs, I either extract them from the normal subs (again using BDSup2Sub) or simply load them into BDSup2Sub if the BD contained a separate forced sub track. THEN I CONVERT THE RESOLUTION OF THE FORCED SUBS TO NTSC (720X480), and save them.

This is probably why the position is wrong.  PGS subtitles contain an X and Y position relative to the source video.  If the size of the subtitle stream and the actual movie don't line up, I'm not sure what will happen.  It would be helpful to have a sample file to test this case.

Thanks.
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fitbrit

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2011, 10:37:36 pm »

Did you know Media Center can shift the subtitles for you (and remember the shift between plays)?  I think that might remove the need to do all that processing.

Matt, I never figured out how to access this functionality. Pointer?
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steelman1991

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2011, 01:25:14 am »

If you use Red October (recommended), there's no need to configure filters.  In the case of LAV, it is configured automatically by Media Center so user settings will be ignored.

LOL well is there anything this amazing software doesn't do - just checked that and it has reverted back to 'load subtitles'. Honestly I don't know now whether I am seeing the expected behaviour or not now, given that MC remembers previously loaded subtitle streams, but it seems to be working for me and I'm happy. I'm in the process of ripping a movie with 'forced subs' as we speak, so this will be a fresh test.

@fitbrit - hope this is right. When playing a file right click, choose subtitles, where there are subtitles available,  there are a further two options - size and shift.

Thanks again Matt - will leave things to the experts in future.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2011, 12:46:43 pm »

Quote
Bob, you're describing a pretty complicated ingestion process.  Did you know Media Center can shift the subtitles for you (and remember the shift between plays)?
Like fitbrit, I can not find the place to change the size and position (steelman's suggestion doesn't work for me).

Edit: I figured out that the ability to move the subs and change their size is available in v16.0.176...:)  However, the controls are not sufficient enough to move the subs to the correct place and the correct size...:(

Quote
I think that might remove the need to do all that processing.
Going forward is not a problem, as MC16 can handle both PGS and IDX subs, AND it can handle them at full 1920X1080 resolution. The problem is that I already have ~700 titles done by my old method, a method which was absolutely necessary when using the SageTV HD300...:(
Quote
This is probably why the position is wrong.  PGS subtitles contain an X and Y position relative to the source video.
Agreed. That is what I am thinking also.
Quote
If the size of the subtitle stream and the actual movie don't line up, I'm not sure what will happen.
If you play the .MKV back using Zoomplayer and default filters, the subs appear the correct size and at the correct place.
If you play the .MKV back using the SageTV HD300, the subs appear the correct size and at the correct place.
If you play the .MKV back using MPC-HC, the subs appear the correct size and at the correct place.
If you play the .MKV back using MC16 v16.0.128, the subs appear the correct size and at the correct place.
If you play the .MKV back using MC16 using a version after 16.0.128, the subs appear very small and in the wrong place.

Every program scales the 720X480 subs to fit the new resolution (1920X1080)....EXCEPT the most recent builds of MC16. My request to the programmers is simple, PLEASE scale subs to the display resolution...like you used to do in version 16.0.128. Do NOT display subs at their native resolution and X,Y coordinates. I think this is only common sense. I can't think of any reason to display subs any other way, but maybe I am missing something.
Quote
It would be helpful to have a sample file to test this case.
I am working on it, but it sure would be easier if I had an FTP site to send it to...:)
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JimH

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2011, 12:56:26 pm »

Matt, I never figured out how to access this functionality. Pointer?
Right click while playing a movie.  It's stored per movie.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2011, 01:13:08 pm »

I am working on it, but it sure would be easier if I had an FTP site to send it to...:)


I have an FTP site that you can use - let me know. I can post the link here and/or send a private e-mail to you and Matt. Whatever is easier.
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JimH

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2011, 01:15:31 pm »

Use PM please, or you may have problems with unwelcome guests.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2011, 01:21:02 pm »

Giving this some thought, I may have figured out what is going on here (or I could be totally wrong, heheh). Users have requested the ability to change the size and position of the subtitles. The "normal" way of handling subs has been to always scale them to the display resolution. In an effort to give the users what they want, the programmers have added controls for size and position, BUT...the controls have been added to control the subs in their native resolution, as they are assuming that all subs are in native resolution. BAD assumption...:)  ....as is evidenced by my explanation of how my subs are muxed. There are a lot of SageTV users out there, and all of us had to do this in order to get the .IDX subs to play back correctly on their boxes, and I would guess that there is other hardware out there that operates in a similar fashion, so people who are coming from these hardware solutions need something a bit different. My suggestion, if it is possible, is to add the size and position controls to the scaled subs, not the native subs, and then everybody could be happy. I am not a programmer, so maybe I am asking for too much, but I am hopeful that the gurus at JRiver are able to scale the subs to the display resolution first (like they used to do), and THEN add the size and position controls.
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2011, 01:25:21 pm »

Quote
If you play the .MKV back using the SageTV HD300, the subs appear the correct size and at the correct place.
If you play the .MKV back using MPC-HC, the subs appear the correct size and at the correct place.
If you play the .MKV back using MC16 v16.0.128, the subs appear the correct size and at the correct place.
If you play the .MKV back using MC16 using a version after 16.0.128, the subs appear very small and in the wrong place.

Every program scales the 720X480 subs to fit the new resolution (1920X1080)....EXCEPT the most recent builds of MC16. My request to the programmers is simple, PLEASE scale subs to the display resolution.

It's clear you've found a bug, so we just need help reproducing it.  A sample file would really help.

And just to make sure you know, you're talking to the programmer in this case.  I wrote the native subtitle engine for Media Center, which was introduced around 16.0.130.

Thanks for your help.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2011, 01:31:04 pm »

Quote
And just to make sure you know, you're talking to the programmer in this case.  I wrote the native subtitle engine for Media Center, which was introduced around 16.0.130.
Ah, great! I did not know that. Just the guy I wanted to talk to...:)

I have PM'd CountryBumpkin and will arrange the upload very soon.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2011, 05:17:12 pm »

Upload with PAR2's is complete...:)
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steelman1991

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2011, 12:30:53 pm »

Just curious whether this was ever resolved?
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JimH

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2011, 12:36:57 pm »

Not yet.
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steelman1991

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2011, 02:27:36 pm »

Thanks Jim
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2011, 03:24:09 pm »

Quote
Just curious whether this was ever resolved?
I assume that Matt got the clip I uploaded (though I don't know for sure), and I also assume that he was able to recreate the issue and that he is working on it. For now the solution is simply to revert back to version 16.0.128, a version that works perfectly well. I don't think that this issue will effect everybody, or perhaps even most of the MC16 users, as most of the time subtitles are rendered in the same resolution as the video, once again, assuming that my very uneducated assessment is correct...:)
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BartMan01

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2011, 04:01:09 pm »

What about a way to set the 'default' subtitle stream via a library field?  The new Star Wars BluRays for example don't use the standard 'forced' subtitle process.  They have a 'normal' subtitle stream that the Java based playback knows to select by default.  Without being able to set the default manually, you have to manually search through the subtitle tracks (and there are 9 separate English subtitle tracks in Phantom Menace alone) to find the right one.

Edit, I just noticed the post that remembers the last subtitle stream chosen, but if full subtitles were chosen last I would still want to be able to set a 'default' stream to use the next time the movie was started.  For example, I am watching the movie with subtitles selected for commentary 2.  The next time another family member fires up the movie they would expect it to start with the normal subtitles for alien speach and not the commentary subtitles.
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JimH

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2011, 05:55:19 pm »

I assume that Matt got the clip I uploaded
He's off for a week, camping in the Boundary Waters, where it will be 32 degrees F tonight (0 C).
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2011, 08:54:12 pm »

Quote
He's off for a week, camping in the Boundary Waters, where it will be 32 degrees F tonight (0 C).
Sounds like fun....heheh....:)
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Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2011, 06:19:27 pm »

I assume that Matt got the clip I uploaded (though I don't know for sure)

I saw your post "Upload with PAR2's is complete..." before leaving, but didn't get a link to the file.  Could you email me a link?  I'm matt at jriver dot com.

Thanks.

(And Jim is right about the cold.  Did he mention the rain?  Three days without seeing the sun, but then it cleared up and was wonderful.)
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Matt

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Re: Is there a problem with showing only forced subtitles in MC?
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2011, 02:22:03 pm »

Thanks a lot for the sample file, and also thanks to CountryBumkin for the FTP space.

In a coming build:
Fixed: VOB subtitle streams that were resized independently of the movie could appear in the wrong location.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center
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