Topic: What settings to play 96k/24bit from MC17 to SqBox Touch? (Read 10382 times)

jllaudio · « **on:** April 27, 2012, 12:50:13 pm »

I am just trying the product and find my WAV 96k/24 bit files aren't playing through my SqBox Touch. The few 96K/24bit flac files I have are being selected by the MC17 and play through the SqBox Touch (wired Ethernet) and the MC17 ignores (skips over) my WAV files.

If possible, I'm looking for the settings (and where located) that would allow the MC17 to send my Wav files to the SqBox Touch. I have over 20,000 Wav files on two 3 TB hard drives and converting them to flac is not an option.

Thanks for any assistance in advance.

jllaudio

MrC · « **Reply #1 on:** April 27, 2012, 01:07:31 pm »

It might be useful to use the same thread - I think you have 3 open threads regarding the same or similar subject.

Read carefully the last post (by AndrewFG) here:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=69405.msg467764#msg467764

Related threads:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71784.msg485152#msg485152
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71782.msg485137#msg485137

jllaudio · « **Reply #2 on:** April 27, 2012, 01:45:21 pm »

I have no idea what they are talking about when they say "Whitebear". What I was looking for would what steps are they referring to when they say "conversion?".

MrC · « **Reply #3 on:** April 27, 2012, 02:01:04 pm »

Whitebear is the excellent DLNA server that AndrewFG wrote to perform better than the new and narrowly-focused LMS DLNA implementation (targeted at SBs).

But the key point from the post by AndrewFG is that SBs do not accept streamed WAV over the wire:

Quote from: AndrewFG

... The reason is that SBS/LMS cannot play wav or pcm streams.

(This is rather peculiar because Squeeze players use pcm internally, but for whatever reason they cannot read it over the wire).

jllaudio · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2012, 11:36:38 am »

I have been sending 96K/24bit *.WAV files to my SB Touch through wired Ethernet for over a year using the Logitech Media Server.

pcstockton · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2012, 01:30:36 pm »

Quote from: jllaudio on May 01, 2012, 11:36:38 am

I have been sending 96K/24bit *.WAV files to my SB Touch through wired Ethernet for over a year using the Logitech Media Server.

You aren't asking about LMS though.... You are asking about MC17 + The LMS DLNA implementation.

Whitebear should solve that for you.

FYI, FLACs seem to work just fine without Whitebear. But the Squeezebox may or may not be visible at all time.

-Patrick

MrC · « **Reply #6 on:** May 01, 2012, 01:49:21 pm »

I think the OP is unclear about the distinction of file types playable natively by SBs via SBS/LMS, vs. the formats it can play when streamed via DLNA.

jllaudio · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2012, 03:17:18 pm »

I think I'll just stick with the Logitech Media Server to play my WAV files through my SB Touch vs. trying to figure out how to play WAV to the SB Touch using JRiver. I really like the tagging of WAV files and Volume Leveling in the resultant Tag's using the Analysis function, so I will be buying a copy of MC17.

MrC · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2012, 03:27:55 pm »

Whatever floats your boat.

You are understanding that WAV *will* ultimately be converted and handled as PCM by the SB, right?

jllaudio · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2012, 03:58:04 pm »

I've tried quite a few. It is currently set options/media network/configure dlna/always convert - uncompressed 24bit.

My Musical Fidelity says the input from the SB Touch is 96K/24bit (both WAV and flac - using the LMS). So if it is converting to PCM, it doesn't seem to affect the sound quality.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2012, 05:23:28 am »

Quote from: jllaudio on May 01, 2012, 03:17:18 pm

I think I'll just stick with the Logitech Media Server to play my WAV files through my SB Touch vs. trying to figure out how to play WAV to the SB Touch using JRiver. I really like the tagging of WAV files and Volume Leveling in the resultant Tag's using the Analysis function, so I will be buying a copy of MC17.

You have two options:

1) If you choose to go with the LMS/SBS own UPnP/DLNA plug-in, then you have to set JRiver to "Always Convert" the files to Mp3. This is because LMS/SBS simply cannot play WAV or PCM streams*). So in other words, MC must down convert your lossless WAV format to a lossy compressed MP3 format, and you will therefore lose sound quality.

2) If you choose to go with the Whitebear UPnP/DLNA add-in, then you can have MC stream your files as native WAV "Never Convert" and Whitebear will itself render the file to your Squeezeplayer in another lossless format, so there is no loss of audio quality.

*) Note that I used the word stream and not file: Yes LMS can serve a local WAV files to a Squeezeplayer (by converting it to PCM), but LMS cannot serve a remote WAV stream to a Squeezeplayer. I think the reason is that a WAV has a RIFF header only once at the start of the file giving the channel, bitdepth and sample rate info, and if you Seek to an arbitrary position on a stream you will have missed the RIFF header, and you have no information at all for decoding the bitstream. Whitebear solves this by transcoding the WAV stream to FLAC on the fly and sending that to the player; and FLAC includes bitstream decoding information in every frame, so it can robustly withstand an arbitrary Seek...

jllaudio · « **Reply #11 on:** May 05, 2012, 11:52:04 am »

I'm not sure I'm understanding what your describing. I don't stream from the Internet. I just send my 96K/24bit 8.WAV files from my local network PC's USB attached 3TB drives using the Logitech Media Server, through wired Ethernet, to my Squeezebox Touch. From everything I read on the SqboxTouch there is no conversion occurring. I also send the small # of 96K/24bit flac files (usually HDTracks downloads - stored on my 3TB drives as well) using LMS to my SqBox Touch. My DAC says the input it's getting from the SqBox Touch is 96K/24bit and it is successfully being upconverted to 192k/24bit by myd DAC.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2012, 01:00:30 pm »

Quote from: jllaudio on May 05, 2012, 11:52:04 am

I'm not sure I'm understanding what your describing. I don't stream from the Internet.

If you use a Logitech User Interface to play a WAV file on a Squeeze player, then LMS fetches the file data from disk, converts it to PCM format, and pushes that to the player using proprietary commands. The data fetch is done by a disk read operation, and not via the HTTP protocol. This is called "playing"...

But if you use a third party UPnP/DLNA Control Point (such as MC) to play a WAV file to a player, then the UPnP/DLNA plugin (be it Logitech's own plugin or Whitebear), instructs LMS to fetch the music data from MC by means of an HTTP request. Whereupon LMS converts the data and pushes it to the player as before. This is called "streaming"...

LMS can "play" WAV (i.e. it can fetch the data from disk), but it cannot "stream" it (i.e. it cannot fetch the data by means of an HTTP request).
The only formats that LMS can "stream" are MP3, WMA (lossy), AAC, and FLAC -- and the latter is the only lossless streamable format.

LMS own UPnP/DLNA add-in does not have a work around for this problem. If you insist on using the LMS own UPnP/DLNA add-in, then you must tell MC to transcode the data to a lossy format that LMS is capable of streaming. This means using the lowest common denominator format = MP3.

On the other hand Whitebear can recognise this issue and in such cases it interposes itself as an HTTP proxy that fetches lossless WAV (or PCM or AIF) data from the Control Point (such as MC) and feeds it on to LMS (and thus to the Squeeze player) as FLAC.

jllaudio · « **Reply #13 on:** May 06, 2012, 10:12:41 am »

Thanks very much for the explanation. From what you've described, I can't see any advantage to using the MC17 to play versus using the LMS program. Adding Whitebear still doesn't give me WAV in 96K/24bit and it adds another layer of conversion that is lossy. I have purchased the MC software based upon it's ability to Tag my *.wav files and ability to add volume leveling to the individual files. But I think I will stop worrying about trying to play my *.wav files through the MC17.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #14 on:** May 06, 2012, 12:31:41 pm »

Quote from: jllaudio on May 06, 2012, 10:12:41 am

Adding Whitebear still doesn't give me WAV in 96K/24bit and it adds another layer of conversion that is lossy.

Your above statement is totally incorrect !!

1) With MC set on "Never Convert" you can play your 96K/24bit WAV tracks via the Play To command to "your_squeezebox (by Whitebear)".
2) And although Whitebear does indeed add a layer of conversion, this additional layer is not lossy.

Quote from: jllaudio on May 06, 2012, 10:12:41 am

... I think I will stop worrying about trying to play my *.wav files through the MC17.

Your choice...

jllaudio · « **Reply #15 on:** May 07, 2012, 01:55:00 pm »

You can't say I didn't try. I set the option "Never Convert" after I downloaded Whitebear and when I select Playing Now>Squeezebox Touch (Whitebear), it skips over the *.wav files and plays the *.flac files.

pcstockton · « **Reply #16 on:** May 07, 2012, 03:19:42 pm »

who cares??? LMS and Whitebear probably convert WAVs to FLACs anyway.

jllaudio · « **Reply #17 on:** May 07, 2012, 04:13:49 pm »

I care, if it skips over the WAV and only plays the flac's.

pcstockton · « **Reply #18 on:** May 07, 2012, 04:54:08 pm »

Why do you have both FLACs and WAVs of the same album? Just trying to figure out how to help you best.

Thx,
patrick

jllaudio · « **Reply #19 on:** May 07, 2012, 05:18:26 pm »

I have approximately 19K music files. 90+% of the files are WAV (96K/24bit), The rest are HDTracks downloads (96K/24bit) flac and 96K/24bit flac, I have remaining.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #20 on:** May 08, 2012, 12:52:59 am »

Quote from: jllaudio on May 07, 2012, 01:55:00 pm

I set the option "Never Convert" after I downloaded Whitebear and when I select Playing Now>Squeezebox Touch (Whitebear), it skips over the *.wav files and plays the *.flac files.

It does not sound like you are doing the right thing.
In MC select a track | right mouse click menu | Send To | Play | Play (your_player (by Whitebear)) ...

In my case there is absolutely no problem playing 96/24 WAV tracks (and also FLAC tracks) to a Squeeze player.

If you really have a problem then please turn on logging of the Http server in Whitebear, and send me the log file. It may help if you also send me one of the tracks that does not play.

jllaudio · « **Reply #21 on:** May 08, 2012, 06:00:56 am »

When I select a WAV song and send it to Whitebear using the following steps "In MC select a track | right mouse click menu | Send To | Play | Play (your_player (by Whitebear)) ..."
I get the following error message.

"HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found (But Not For Me)

Flac files on that same drive play with no problem through Whitebear. WAV files on that same drive play with no problem using LMS.

JimH · « **Reply #22 on:** May 08, 2012, 06:53:14 am »

Are you using 17.0.144? It's at the top of this board.

If you click on the DLNA device in the tree first, you can just press the play button to play the track(s) you select.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #23 on:** May 08, 2012, 07:02:07 am »

Quote from: jllaudio on May 08, 2012, 06:00:56 am

I get the following error message.
"HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found (But Not For Me)

Which device or software is showing the HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found error? I suppose it is on the display of the player concerned?
I guess the (But Not For Me) part is a joke...

There are three possible causes why a player would give HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found error under these circumstances: a) something in MC, b) something in Whitebear's proxy, or c) a firewall issue either at MC or at Whitebear. In order to determine which is the problem, can you please kindly turn on logging of HTTP Server in Whitebear, and send me the resulting log file. Thanks in advance.

jllaudio · « **Reply #24 on:** May 08, 2012, 07:54:14 am »

I have captured a log file. It should have information of trying to play wav and playing flac. I don't know where to send it. I don't have your email.

jllaudio · « **Reply #25 on:** May 08, 2012, 07:58:00 am »

Jim:

I downloaded the copy I'm using over a week ago. It says 17.0.122 in the about Media Center. is .144 a beta? If not, why wouldn't it have downloaded when I downloaded for the 1st time.

JimH · « **Reply #26 on:** May 08, 2012, 08:09:59 am »

144 is at the top of the MC17 board. Please try it. More here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Updates

jllaudio · « **Reply #27 on:** May 08, 2012, 08:41:18 am »

.144 has the problems. MC17 skips over the *.wav and plays the *.flac.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #28 on:** May 08, 2012, 09:13:14 am »

Hi jllaudio, I will send you a Private Message on this forum, with an email address where you can send the log file. I really appreciate your help in improving Whitebear.

jllaudio · « **Reply #29 on:** May 11, 2012, 05:35:36 pm »

JimH:

Just an update Whitebear says my Info Header is a legitimate info header on my 96k/24bit Wav files. They have just not seen it before and therefore they are going to create an update for their program or a patch to handle it.

jllaudio · « **Reply #30 on:** May 21, 2012, 06:20:34 pm »

Eureka, Success!!, Andrew of Whitebear has forged a solution. that works. I've played several 96k/24bit WAV files through the SqBox Touch with his fix today. He really supports the product. We went through several updates before he nailed it. I will give it a real work out this weekend. Andrew, if your reading this again thankyou. I told him I hoped it would not be a one off for him.

Phil_C · « **Reply #31 on:** May 21, 2012, 07:20:09 pm »

I just finished reading this thread and it did not go unnoticed by me what great product support AndrewFC, and by extension, JRiver provided to a customer with a problem. Most impressive and the best form of endorsement of a product I can think of. Also, impressive how MC is built robustly with a built-in log to be turned on and off to assist with the debugging process. Bravo

JimH · « **Reply #32 on:** May 21, 2012, 08:14:55 pm »

Nice of you to say. Andrew has been great to work with.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #33 on:** May 22, 2012, 10:58:23 am »

Quote from: jllaudio on May 21, 2012, 06:20:34 pm

Andrew of Whitebear has forged a solution.

You can download the new version here: http://www.whitebear.ch/mediaserver

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Author Topic: What settings to play 96k/24bit from MC17 to SqBox Touch? (Read 10382 times)