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Author Topic: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?  (Read 19778 times)

Fred12

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Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« on: May 21, 2013, 04:19:52 pm »

hi,

I use this media player for almost everything, music, hd movies , blurays etc... except 3D Blurays... I have to use a separate Player (TMT5) for this , it would be more comfortable to use just one player for everything...
3D is still very popular and even more coming... so as this player seems to be so perfect in many ways.. I'm wondering why it has no 3D Bluray support yet? That would make it even more popular..
Is it a license thing ? Or are development costs too high? If so, in both cases you could try to gather money via crowd funding... :)

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stevenjw

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2013, 05:35:51 pm »

Unfortunately, I've seen no indication/commitment that 3D blu-ray will be supported in MediaCenter.  It does provide playback of HSBS and O/U, but not native 3D .iso files or BD.

Frankly, I'm not going to upgrade until this is added to a future release.  The product does just about everything I want right now except for 3D DB and 3D .iso support.  I would love to have these too.  They're at the top of my wishlist for JRiver MC and I won't spend the money on an upgrade without it.  IMHO, it's a must have for any new release.
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JimH

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2013, 06:27:08 pm »

If it happens at all, it won't be any time soon.
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jmone

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2013, 06:30:28 pm »

Some background on BD 3D Support.  There are three paths that MC could take:

1) Leverage the Public Domain filters.  MC's entire video playback leverages the work done by developers like nevcairiel and madshi for the development of the direct show filters required (splitters, decoders and renderers).  These guys provide their dev efforts to the wider PC community for free and tend to work and including features that interest them.  So far 3D is not one of those interests and may never be.  Both post their work over at the Doom9 forum and have threads you could continbute too if you want to advocate for such features.  FYI - The other feature "missing" from Licenced BD Players is BD Menu Support.

2) Become a licenced BD Player (aka PowerDVD, TMT etc).  This would mean they would then have to support the full spec including 3D and Menus but also stuff like Cinava and other copy protection mechanisms.  It also costs a heap in both time and money.  I don't think this is the path JR would go down (thankfully)

3) Support 3D File Type for launching a 3rd Party Player.  There has been a suggestion put where MC would recognise that a BD was 3D and then launch (if installed) the embedded TMT player for this content.  A few have shown some interest in this but there has not been much traction to date.  I like this as it combines with #1 nicely.
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stevenjw

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2013, 07:51:09 pm »

The third option would be a nice, convenient stop-gap until the filters support it (if ever) since many already use something like TMT5 for playback (I do).
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johncaul

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2013, 04:42:27 am »

i'm not in a position to distinguish between or make a call on the three options outlined. All i can say for sure is not having proper blu ray and 3D support has gone from being a minor irritation to a major PIA as more and more of collection is now made up of blu rays rather than DVDs. The primary reason i first bought JRiver was because it was a one stop solution for playing all music and video formats and so could sit at the center of my home theatre. Lack of full blu ray support means this is no longer the case, how JRiver choose to address it is really your call, but the current half arsed approach is not a long term solution. I'm sure i'm not the only one now finding their initial rationale for buying JRiver no longer stacks up. This isn't meant to be a criticism, just honest feedback. Cheers
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6233638

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2013, 11:48:44 am »

i'm not in a position to distinguish between or make a call on the three options outlined. All i can say for sure is not having proper blu ray and 3D support has gone from being a minor irritation to a major PIA as more and more of collection is now made up of blu rays rather than DVDs. The primary reason i first bought JRiver was because it was a one stop solution for playing all music and video formats and so could sit at the center of my home theatre. Lack of full blu ray support means this is no longer the case, how JRiver choose to address it is really your call, but the current half arsed approach is not a long term solution. I'm sure i'm not the only one now finding their initial rationale for buying JRiver no longer stacks up. This isn't meant to be a criticism, just honest feedback. Cheers
There are a number of issues with 3D Blu-ray support.

1. It's a complex problem - as I understand it, 3D output is handled differently by each graphics card manufacturer. Windows 8 adds a "global" way of implementing 3D support, but madshi does not want to add 3D support to madVR this way, as it limits the number of people that can use it.

I don't know whether the JRiver team have any plans on developing their own 3D solution. (my guess is that they probably don't)

2. There are a very small number of 3D Blu-rays out there - around 150 or so total, a fraction of which are actually shot natively in 3D rather than being conversions, and a small fraction of those which are even worth watching. (in my opinion, at least - I know someone that will watch anything if it's in 3D ::))

3. 3D seems to be dead in the water. Manufacturers were pushing it for a while a couple of years ago as a way to try and sell people new TVs and players, but it didn't work, and there's been little mention of it at all recently.
Now they are focused on OLED and 4K to try and sell new TVs. It's amazing how short-sighted the TV industry has been, and how little common sense the have shown in trying to make televisions commodity items that are replaced every couple of years.

4. Current 3D technology is terrible. All of it significantly dims the display. Active 3D gives you full resolution, but flickers a lot and gives people headaches. Passive 3D halves the resolution which looks terrible.
Both methods require you to wear glasses, autostereoscopic displays require you to sit in a fixed position and have even lower resolution than passive 3D. The only good 3D I have ever seen, has been using Sony's OLED Headset. (which is a very uncomfortable device, and has serious image quality problems)

And pre-baked 3D such as that found on Blu-ray discs is an inherently bad solution in my experience. You cannot adjust the depth (displays with a depth setting "fake" it and break convergence when they do this) and there are no convergence adjustments for pre-baked content. So all 3D Blu-rays assume you have the exact same vision as the guy who mastered the disc (or whatever "average" eyes it was designed around) which doesn't work well for a lot of people - another reason many people feel ill after watching 3D.

3D gaming works very well though, because both views are rendered in real-time, and so things like depth and convergence are actually adjustable, so you can tune them for a 3D image that is suited to your vision.
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BartMan01

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2013, 04:48:25 am »

the current half arsed approach is not a long term solution. I'm sure i'm not the only one now finding their initial rationale for buying JRiver no longer stacks up.

There are only two things I can't do with the current implementation in JRiver with BluRay:
Use any Java based content.
Watch 3D.

In the rare case that I need either of these, I just throw the disk in my BR player and watch it from there.  I do that maybe once a month on average right now.

If your usage of BluRay content is heavily dependent on one or both of these, then MC may not be the right tool for you.  When you find a tool that satisfies that need and also does everything else that MC can do, please share it with us.
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fitbrit

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2013, 10:33:50 am »


2. There are a very small number of 3D Blu-rays out there - around 150 or so total, a fraction of which are actually shot natively in 3D rather than being conversions, and a small fraction of those which are even worth watching. (in my opinion, at least - I know someone that will watch anything if it's in 3D ::))

3. 3D seems to be dead in the water. Manufacturers were pushing it for a while a couple of years ago as a way to try and sell people new TVs and players, but it didn't work, and there's been little mention of it at all recently.
Now they are focused on OLED and 4K to try and sell new TVs. It's amazing how short-sighted the TV industry has been, and how little common sense the have shown in trying to make televisions commodity items that are replaced every couple of years.


I have to disagree with these two points. More and more movies are coming out in 3D, and at least according to AVSforum's official reviews, they're getting better at providing convincing depth perception. The rate of 3D movie production does not seem to be slowing to me, but I admittedly have no data to back this up. Even if it were only for 3-4 sci-fi/comic book blockbusters a year, it would be worth it for me for the extra wow factor. I would love for MC to be able to play 3D bluray, preferably from iso files. 3D bluray is the only format I store as iso for my movies.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2013, 10:45:00 am »

I believe the workaround is to have MC load an external program like TMT when a 3D is detected. Have TMT play the 3D and then return to MC when the movie is over.

However, there may be a problem with this (not sure) but I read the newer versions of TMT have Cinavia detection so you may not be able to rip your BD disk to HD.

For Cinavia to work the player (DVD/BD drive) and playback software (TMT) have to detect Cinavia. The newer version software already does this, and I think all newer computer DVD/BD players do to. So maybe having an older DVD/BD player is the key to making this work (until Cinavia is defeated).
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fitbrit

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2013, 11:35:34 am »

However, there may be a problem with this (not sure) but I read the newer versions of TMT have Cinavia detection so you may not be able to rip your BD disk to HD.

Exactly. I'm sure there will be some mandatory upgrade to play the latest BD for TMT and PDVD at some point. And when that happens, Cinavia will be installed too.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2013, 12:13:29 pm »

TMT5 build 172+ and all TMT6 versions have Cinavia detection. However AnyDVD HD ver7.2.0 has an option to "not detect" Cinavia, so maybe there is already a workaround. I don't use TMT so I can test this for myself - and I don't have a 3D capable TV so I'm not concerned about it right now.
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stevecramer22

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2013, 05:23:04 pm »

Forget it; 3D and Blu-ray are worse than useless. All current and past 3D effects gives me headaches and I wear glasses normally and the 3D junk is even worse, if that's possible.

Blu-ray is leased/licensed from a single company and their stuff is flaky to say the least. I purchase an LG and two Pioneer Elite Blu-ray standalone players and neither would play 75 percent of the Blu-ray disk I purchased.

After countless firmware updates there are still 40 percent of the Blu-ray's will not play. Blu-ray players use with a computer is even worst at playing. I've completely stop buying and trying Blu-ray anything.

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6233638

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2013, 05:48:55 pm »

I can't comment on Blu-ray players, but I've never had any trouble playing Blu-rays on my HTPC with AnyDVD installed.
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jmone

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2013, 06:07:45 pm »

The following request to allow MC to differentiate between 2D and 3D so we can use an external 3D player has been floating around for a bit

At present we can not play 3D BD in MC, only licenced players like TMT can do this but I've got a clever plan till we wait for LAV/madVR support for 3D that should be easy to identify and kick off the embedded versions of TMT etc just for BD 3D playback.

There has been a bit of traffic on the AnyDVD HD JRiver MC thread on how to get this done.  I've tested this with batch files and it seems to work (but who really knows!)

Can JR:
1) add a new File Type called "3D-Blu Ray".  The default "Playback Method" would be "Automatic" (and RO would play it as a 2D Disk thanks to LAV) but if a user selected "External Program (Custom)" we could then put in "C:\Program Files (x86)\ArcSoft\TotalMedia Theatre 5\uMCEPlayer5.exe"  MC would need to add the drive identifier as the "Argument"
2) On inserting a BD (or mounting it) Identification that it is a 3D BD disk is easy as it has a folder called "\BDMV\STREAM\SSIF" which is not on 2D disks

The great thing about the uMCEPlaer5.exe version is that it is designed to be called by other progs (MCE in particular) so when you press the "Back / Backspace" button it exits and returns you to MC!

Brilliant or What!
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jmone

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2013, 09:32:30 pm »

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Ekpen

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2013, 10:15:24 am »

If it happens at all, it won't be any time soon.

Greetings:
If 3D support is doable, please I ask that we  get on it.

I will continue to support and upgrade regardless of 3D integration.
4K is also on the horizon. We can not let MC get too far behind. Afterwards, MC is the center of "EVERYTHING".
Thanks.
George
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Jong

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 06:04:18 am »

I have to say, JRiver guys, I have been hugely disappointed by the lack of progress in proper BD and ISO support in MC18. A lot of ideas have been circulating for a couple of years. All progress that has been made seems to me to really be integration of the work done by others (LAV/MadVR).

I was once very keen to get involved in the evolution of these facilities but now rarely get involved as other than stuff mentioned above little that is changing matters to me! I will buy MC19 immediately, but if nothing happens in another year I am not so sure :(   .

Whinge over, kinda, I agree we need some support for 3d and menus and, as I understand the technical and commercial issues with doing this inside MC, we badly need an easy to use option to launch an external player, for either menus (extras) or 3d. MC ought to be able to recognise a 3d title and offer an option to always play in 3d (with external player) or not or ask each time, similar to resume option. And "play with external" player should be an option for all discs.

There are other things needed to improve BD iso support, like scanning the media properly for metadata, that were included years ago in other HTPC tools.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound so negative. But I have posted so many constructive threads/posts on this topic I have lost all hope! Hope I am wrong!

(Ps. I disagree 3d is dead. Just look at the A-list titles that are using it this year. It is true it didn't prove a huge driver of new TV sales, as Sony/Samsung et-al hoped, but it still remains a feature of all top end TVs and 4k will resolve some of the current limitations in the home such as half 1080p resolution passive.)
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6233638

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 08:04:49 am »

All progress that has been made seems to me to really be integration of the work done by others (LAV/MadVR).
And what's wrong with that? madVR is the best video renderer available for HTPCs, and similarly, LAV is the best splitter and audio/video decoder.

Whinge over, kinda, I agree we need some support for 3d and menus and, as I understand the technical and commercial issues with doing this inside MC, we badly need an easy to use option to launch an external player, for either menus (extras) or 3d.
I think there is already an option to launch Blu-rays in an external player, the issue is that there's no distinction between 2D and 3D titles. (because 2D works just fine in MC already)

Can I ask what it is that you want menus for? It seems to be a reasonably common request, but I just don't understand why people want it.
All menus mean to me is that you will have 10 minutes of trailers before being able to get to them, and have to go through slow BD-J menus to access the content.
As it is now, content is instantly accessible, with the film starting as soon as you hit play on the disc, without having to configure things like selecting the highest quality audio stream or subtitles.

There are other things needed to improve BD iso support, like scanning the media properly for metadata, that were included years ago in other HTPC tools.
Native ISO support (similar to SACD ISO) would be appreciated. But I don't see it as a big issue.
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Jong

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 02:02:06 pm »

Nothing wrong with MadVR and LAV, they are brilliant and what drew me to MC in the first place. But since then there has been no progress with better, properly integrated blu-ray support. It's fine if you want to rip to mkv, but if you want to keep the original structure so you can play with menus, play 3D etc. you are left with a nasty kludge.

I am very happy most of the time with jumping straight to movie. I agree often menus are a distraction. But, having bought a blu-ray and watched the movie it is not unreasonable, the first time or at a later date to want to watch the extras and there is no good way of doing that without the original menu structure. All this has been raised and discussed here for, as I said, a couple of years. It is just sad that after a very impressive piece of work being the first to integrate MadVR/LAV things have "stagnated", so that I have gone from being an enthusiastic advocate for MC to someone who frankly is keeping his options open.

Still hoping for a surprise with MC19! :)
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Hendrik

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 02:16:29 pm »

Don't forget that there are legal things to consider when you want to tackle something big like Blu-ray support in a commercial application, and those licenses are extremely expensive, and full BD support is rather complicated.
Personally, i think they can focus on much more useful things, so i wouldn't hold my breath. For me it always was no more then a fun technical challenge to maybe implement something some day, but i've long given up any claims or hopes of ever finishing something, especially with basically no real interest on my part for the finished product. ;)

IMHO, if you desperately need BD menus or are fooled by what they call 3D, investigate other solutions that possibly integrate in MC, but no more than that for any time soon.
Of course my views are my own, and my own alone. :)

PS:
Someone mentioned 4K above - that is quite different to 3D or Blu-ray in general, and if your PC is fast enough you can play 4K content today already in MC18.
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Jong

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2013, 02:42:29 pm »

I made it quite clear in this thread and in earlier ones that I understand the commercial and legal issues with full blu-ray support natively in MC. That is why we are proposing proper support for external players. Plus there are other issues in MC with properly scanning .isos for metadata etc. that have yet to be resolved. Even importing .iso automatically into the library as something other than a "data" file requires messy manual setup initially that I would guess many users never get working properly.

Personally I am not a big fan of 3D in the home - IMO you need to be way to close to the TV to get the viewing angle unless you have some massive 80"+ TV. But that doesn't mean if you buy a disc (especially kids cartoons) and it is in 3D there should not be an easy way to play it. These are not minority interest things any more. Most decent TVs and stand-alone blu-ray players support 3D now, whatever you think of it.
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Ekpen

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2013, 03:10:39 pm »


Personally, i think they can focus on much more useful things, so i wouldn't hold my breath. For me it always was no more then a fun technical challenge to maybe implement something some day, but i've long given up any claims or hopes of ever finishing something, especially with basically no real interest on my part for the finished product. ;)

IMHO, if you desperately need BD menus or are fooled by what they call 3D, investigate other solutions that possibly integrate in MC, but no more than that for any time soon.
Of course my views are my own, and my own alone. :)

PS:
Someone mentioned 4K above - that is quite different to 3D or Blu-ray in general, and if your PC is fast enough you can play 4K content today already in MC18.


Greetings:
 There are lots of features, I do not use right now, or may not use in the features. It is good we all try to support MC with features. You do not have a need for the stated features does not mean it should not be developed.
We want MC to be all-round Media Center, that will appeal to lots of users, including integrators.
For me, I want 3D. I have been using 3D from the time Mitsubishi introduced it in early dlp tvs.
Base on Jmone script, I just paid for tmt6 software last night. I hope to get involve with 3D on the PC via MC18.

JimH, Matt- please give something for MC evangelists to look up to and something new to talk about !!!.

3D on Mitsubishi WD-92840 is "sweet"

Thanks.
George
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cncb

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2013, 03:21:40 pm »

I just started trying 3D so excuse my ignorance but what is the difficulty with supporting "frame-packed" output?  I can easily create an MKV with the "MVC" video so it seems all we might be missing is generating this type of output?
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Jong

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2013, 04:37:13 pm »


Greetings:
 There are lots of features, I do not use right now, or may not use in the features. It is good we all try to support MC with features. You do not have a need for the stated features does not mean it should not be developed.
Yes, frankly the supposed minority interest factor never stops yet another esoteric audiophile feature creaping in! And believe me, much as some may despise them, BD extras and 3D are nowhere near as minority as a lot of that stuff. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that stuff should go or even not be developed further, but it does get a bit rich after a couple of years of being told "priorities, priorities" to see some of the stuff that appears from nowhere into a new release! I say this again, not as a troublemaker, but as a now somewhat disillusioned evangelist for MC.
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jmone

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2013, 07:15:22 am »

I'd normally enthusiastically agree with Jong's sentiments on the bias towards "esoteric audiophile features creeping in" VS Video Stuff.... but I'm trying to keep a low profile after Jim's threat of pythons being delivered!  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=80792.0
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Ekpen

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2013, 11:14:01 am »

While we wait - http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=81259.0


Jmone:
Thanks for the script.
 I have my BDs in Sony megachanger, I hope I will be able to use the BDs in the changer which uses RS232.
Hopefully, if and when we are lucky enough to get changers with 3D support, I should be able to use your script.
Right now, my new HTPC will use a Panasonic Uj-265A slim BD/Dvd burner if I want to load 3D disc.
Again, Thanks for your time.
George.
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Z0001

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Re: Any chance for Bluray 3D Support soon?
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2013, 12:24:05 am »

Could zone switch be used to trigger an external player to play 3d iso files? What configuring would be needed?
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