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[jctcom]

Speakers:  Not much to say here.  These may contain a DAC (if they have a digital input like a spdif plug or something), but you're not using it if you're connecting to them via analog.  The analog volume control can impact the sound quality produced by the amplifier.  Most amps have a "sweet spot".  The best sound quality volume control is from within MC itself, so a good way to do it is to use MC's extensive volume controls to handle volume, and keep the amp's volume knob set at a constant position.

I am curious to know if you consider this to be the case even with a proper amplifier (I use an Onkyo TX-NR1008) connected to the computer via HDMI?  I always thought the best method was the keep the volume on the computer at max and let the receiver / amplifier handle the volume control.  (Mind you this is probably gleaned from a time when everything was analogue and using line levels).

Carl

[astromo]

Speakers:  Not much to say here.  These may contain a DAC (if they have a digital input like a spdif plug or something), but you're not using it if you're connecting to them via analog.  The analog volume control can impact the sound quality produced by the amplifier.  Most amps have a "sweet spot".  The best sound quality volume control is from within MC itself, so a good way to do it is to use MC's extensive volume controls to handle volume, and keep the amp's volume knob set at a constant position.

I am curious to know if you consider this to be the case even with a proper amplifier (I use an Onkyo TX-NR1008) connected to the computer via HDMI?  I always thought the best method was the keep the volume on the computer at max and let the receiver / amplifier handle the volume control.  (Mind you this is probably gleaned from a time when everything was analogue and using line levels).

Carl

When I setup, I referred to the Wiki:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Volume
and no hard recommendation is given - user preference and hardware circumstance specific:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Volume#Recommendations

[Edit:] At home, I work with disabled to avoid getting things mixed up when switching between audio to the TV and to the amp. If this gathers momentum, then it may be worth splitting this discussion off and talk it over serparately.

[jctcom]

Yeah.  My major concern is always that someone won't realize the volume is turned down in MC and blast the receiver to compensate.  Then you switch to another input like Blu-Ray or radio or something and blam.  Blown eardrums and possibly speakers / amp etc....

Probably not an issue if there is only one person using the system but I am not sure the difference in quality is enough to be worth taking the risk.

Carl.

[Scolex]

I am curious to know if you consider this to be the case even with a proper amplifier (I use an Onkyo TX-NR1008) connected to the computer via HDMI?  I always thought the best method was the keep the volume on the computer at max and let the receiver / amplifier handle the volume control.  (Mind you this is probably gleaned from a time when everything was analogue and using line levels).

Carl

You are correct when you are sending a digital signal out to an A/V Receiver it is best to set the computer volume to the max and then control
volume with the receiver.
In some cases the volume control of the digital out on the computer is defeated and remains at 100% even if you move the slider up and down.
You can set it this way by using the Maximize device volume during playback option in Options-->Audio-->Audio Device-->Device settings.
Make sure you have the correct zone selected in the "Zone to configure" drop down at the top of the Options window if you have more than 1 zone.

[jctcom]

You can set it this way by using the Maximize device volume during playback option in Options-->Audio-->Audio Device-->Device settings.
Make sure you have the correct zone selected in the "Zone to configure" drop down at the top of the Options window if you have more than 1 zone.

Yeah.  Mine is set that way.  But for some reason it still allows the MCE remote to turn down the volume in MC.  Luckily I don't actually use that remote but my Harmony instead which is configured only to use the receiver volume control.

Carl.

[Scolex]

Andy

If your z680 control pod is easily accessible I would set it up in this fashion.
SPDIF (optical or coaxial) out from computer to z680 set system volume to max and control volume with the pod.
If it is not easily accessible I would set volume on the computer to about 90% and then set the pod volume with a volt meter (how to available if needed). After the pod volume is set you would then use the system volume.
The z680 has a built a in Dolby decoder so you can send 5.1 over SPDIF by changing settings in the output format of the JRiver DSP.

If you need any details on how to accomplish any of this don't hesitate to ask.

[connersw]

astromo and glynor:  Can we split off the volume discussion into it's own thread since I believe it warrants more discussion.  I have always been under the impression that any reduction in volume via software was essentially reducing bit depth.  Therefore, it was best to have it either disabled or maximized to 100% so that it can be controlled in the analog realm.  I would be interested in hearing other points of view. 

[connersw]

Edit: I put my comments back in the original thread since they were not volume related.

[astromo]

astromo and glynor:  Can we split off the volume discussion into it's own thread since I believe it warrants more discussion.  I have always been under the impression that any reduction in volume via software was essentially reducing bit depth.  Therefore, it was best to have it either disabled or maximized to 100% so that it can be controlled in the analog realm.  I would be interested in hearing other points of view. 

Agreed, hence my suggestion. I could see where jctcom's comment was going as soon as I read it. Unfortunately the power of the Fork is not strong within me. I don't have the forum rights to split a thread.. 

[jctcom]

I have no problems with splitting.  Alas I too am powerless (In this regard lol)

Carl

[mwillems]

astromo and glynor:  Can we split off the volume discussion into it's own thread since I believe it warrants more discussion.  I have always been under the impression that any reduction in volume via software was essentially reducing bit depth.  Therefore, it was best to have it either disabled or maximized to 100% so that it can be controlled in the analog realm.  I would be interested in hearing other points of view.  

I personally prefer digital volume, and at the risk of leading the thread further astray, I'll go into some of the technical points.  To be clear, the main reason I use digital volume is because it's much more convenient for me to control volume this way (block amplifiers, no remote control for the DAC, etc.).  I don't think digital volume control is "superior" in terms of sound quality in most cases (although sometimes it can be), but there are some reasons why it's not necessarily a bad idea to do digital volume control.

If you (like me) listen primarily to redbook CD music in JRiver, and your DAC supports a notional 24 bit output (most modern DACs do), JRiver outputs at the highest bitdepth your DAC will support.  That means that 16 bit audio is output as 24 bit, with zeroes padding the bottom eight bits.  So in that scenario, you get some amount of digital attenuation "free" without getting close to the theoretical 16 bits of audio information: even quite significant digital volume attenuation (15-30dB, depending on the noise floor of your DAC) can still be more or less "bit perfect."

But even in situations where you might theoretically be compromising audio information there are a few reasons why digital attenuation may still be just as good as analog volume control:

1) 16 bit audio allows for a dynamic range of about 96 dB.  Most music doesn't actually have anywhere close to that kind of dynamic range.  You can test this by using the method mojave describes in this thread: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84970.0.  He found that baking in -40dB of attenuation to a few 16 bit tracks didn't appear to affect the audio analysis of the tracks (i.e. DR and R128 stats remained the same).  Generally speaking, that's been my experience when I repeated his experiment.  Obviously YMMV, but I'd be willing to bet that it's a rare recording that gets close to using the whole 96dB.  That means that in many cases even if your digital attenuation is "compromising" that 96dB envelope, you've got some distance to travel before you are likely to start throwing away actual audio information. Exactly how much distance will vary by your program material, but even, say, 10dB of "free" additional attenuation is nothing to spit at.

2) Analog electronics are not noise free, and analog volume controls can sometimes contribute significant distortion (Johnson noise from the potentiometers, etc.). I've had several amps over the years where the noise floor of the amp changed audibly depending on the setting of the volume knob, or changed when the knob was adjusted.  All analog volume controls will contribute some noise, but well-designed ones don't contribute significant or audible noise.  Not all are well designed, however.  JRiver's digital volume control contributes no distortion.

3) Even assuming one has a low-noise volume control, what's the noise floor like on the amp?  Many amps claim a higher than 96dB SNR, but it's a misleading spec because it's usually calculated near (usually just below) the maximum power output of the amp (a volume at which most people are very unlikely to listen).  To really meaningfully achieve 96dB of dynamic range, an amp would have to have a THD+N of about 0.0015% at normal listening levels.  There are some very nice amps that have THD+N specs like that, but my current amps definitely don't, and I've never owned an amp that did.  So it's worth considering whether the full bitdepth can even be resolved by the amplifier one is using to begin with.

As a side note, some modern receivers have a digital volume control (not to be confused with a digitally-controlled analog volume control, which is still an analog volume control), so for those receivers the digital attenuation is being performed somewhere, and it's just a question of convenience where that attenuation is happening.  It's just a question of what's easier and whose volume control you "trust" more.

And I also support splitting, but have no power to do anything about it  

[jctcom]

Ok.  Now I have a lot more to say about the volume issue.  But I don't feel it's appropriate until the thread get's split. 

I feel guilty for starting it now.

Can we please get this split by the powers that be?

Thanks.

Carl.

[mwillems]

Ok.  Now I have a lot more to say about the volume issue.  But I don't feel it's appropriate until the thread get's split. 

I feel guilty for starting it now.

Can we please get this split by the powers that be?

Thanks.

Carl.

I think we're unlikely to get it split on a Saturday night (it's 10pm at JRiver HQ), but perhaps some passing mod will take pity on us.

Sorry for compounding the problem.

[Scolex]

astromo and glynor:  Can we split off the volume discussion into it's own thread since I believe it warrants more discussion.  I have always been under the impression that any reduction in volume via software was essentially reducing bit depth.  Therefore, it was best to have it either disabled or maximized to 100% so that it can be controlled in the analog realm.  I would be interested in hearing other points of view.  

There really isn't any set rule for which is better analog or digital domain and you could achieve better results for your aural preference with either.
As far as changing volume in the digital domain essentially reducing bit depth this is false or at least improperly phrased.
When amplitude is altered in the the digital domain all that is being changed is the number that represents Full Scale (FS) is being altered and all
other amplitude factors are changed relative to that change.
To simplify things lets use nice round numbers and assume that the relation between volume % and dBFS is linear.
If 100% = 0dBFS and 0% = -100dBFS this gives us a maximum Dynamic Range (DR) of 100dBFS.
Now let assume we have a file that has a -60 to -10 DR @ 100%
If we reduce the volume to 50% we now have a max DR of 50dBFS
result: the file would have a DR from -80 to -55 and the relative Full Scale value would be -50.
That may seem confusing because of the negative numbers so here is how you come to the numbers.
The quietest passage at 100% is -60 which is 40db above the noise floor so you multiply the 40 by volume% and then add it to the -100 to get to -80
Same process for the peak.

One other factor worth mentioning is bit depth alone is not relevant it is simply the size of the pipe it is a combination of bit depth and sampling frequency that matters.
If digital attenuation effectively reduced bit depth what effect would it have on SACD audio which is only 1 bit but 2.8224 MHz just for conversion purposes that translates to the same throughput as 16bit 176.4K.

[jctcom]

I am not an expert like a lot of you guys.  but from what I am understanding there is no advantage to changing the volume at the computer level.  So (For me at least) my initial reason for changing it at the receiver level remains valid  (I.E. if the volume at the receiver is cranked because someone doesn't realize that the volume in MC is reduced then we worry about switching to a different input and having the volume blasting out because that input is set to line level)

Also it should be noted that I personally very rarely listen to red book CD.  Most of the music I listen to has been ripped from Vinyl or Blu-Ray or SACD or is DSF / DSD.  So it is generally 24Bit / 96Khz or higher and multi-channel.  Referencing what Mwillems was talking about earlier.  Not sure if it actually makes a difference or not but there's the rub lol.   

[mwillems]

I am not an expert like a lot of you guys.  but from what I am understanding there is no advantage to changing the volume at the computer level.  So (For me at least) my initial reason for changing it at the receiver level remains valid  (I.E. if the volume at the receiver is cranked because someone doesn't realize that the volume in MC is reduced then we worry about switching to a different input and having the volume blasting out because that input is set to line level)

Also it should be noted that I personally very rarely listen to red book CD.  Most of the music I listen to has been ripped from Vinyl or Blu-Ray or SACD or is DSF / DSD.  So it is generally 24Bit / 96Khz or higher and multi-channel.  Referencing what Mwillems was talking about earlier.  Not sure if it actually makes a difference or not but there's the rub lol.  

I don't think there's a sound quality advantage to using digital volume control unless you have a noisy volume control on your amp.  I was just trying to lay out some reasons why using a digital volume control might be about as good in some specific circumstances (and it sounds like some of those don't apply to you).

If your receiver volume control is quiet and works the way you like, you've got the best of all worlds; my amps don't have volume controls so I don't have much of a choice  

[jctcom]

No volume control at all?  Those must be either very high end?  Or not?  lol

My receiver has a knob but I believe it is actually digital as there is 1.  A digital display that shows the volume level change and 2. if using the remote the knob itself does not move (Which I believe is where the noise comes from if there is any?).

Carl.

[glynor]

I personally prefer digital volume, and at the risk of leading the thread further astray, I'll go into some of the technical points.  To be clear, the main reason I use digital volume is because it's much more convenient for me to control volume this way (block amplifiers, no remote control for the DAC, etc.).  I don't think digital volume control is "superior" in terms of sound quality in most cases (although sometimes it can be), but there are some reasons why it's not necessarily a bad idea to do digital volume control.

mwillems summed up my feelings on the matter perfectly, and I don't need to say any more about that.

Internal volume control isn't always better than the analog control on your amp, but (especially with lower-end hardware) it often is, and it is engineered correctly, so there is no harm in using it (unless you always need a massive level of attenuation, in which case I'd say your amp is oversized).

Using the regular system volume control isn't better.  But I've found that MC has very nice control over the "other applications are too loud/quiet" issues now.

But, it can certainly go either way, depending on your setup.  There are some other not-quality-related reasons I often prefer using Internal Volume as well: performance with my remote control, not requiring a separate remote for anything, never having to open the AV cabinet in the living room, etc.  But, even I use analog volume control in certain circumstances (some of my outs go out to my mixer).

Regarding the thread, I could split it, but I don't think it is that irrelevant to the original question, and it fits in with the subject line.  I don't know, I think it is a worthwhile conversation.  If MrC or Jim or whomever disagrees, they can split it, but I'm fine leaving it here.

[mwillems]

No volume control at all?  Those must be either very high end?  Or not?  lol

They're DIY amps, so I have no one to blame but myself    The amp modules came mostly complete, they just needed to be wired up and screwed to the chassis, but there was no included volume control.  I didn't really have the expertise to design an appropriately low-noise volume control for the amps, so I just left them as block amps.  It hasn't really been a problem so far because my PC is the only input source  and JRiver's volume control has been very reliable in my specific configuration.

My receiver has a knob but I believe it is actually digital as there is 1.  A digital display that shows the volume level change and 2. if using the remote the knob itself does not move (Which I believe is where the noise comes from if there is any?).

Usually yeah.  Yours might be a fully digital volume control, or it might be a digitally-controlled analog volume, it's hard to know.  Receiver makers don't always make it clear what's happening in the volume control department  

[Scolex]

My work around for possible extreme volume changes is I use event ghost on my PC so the volume controls from my keyboard/mouse/remote control the volume of all outputs at the same time. I can still change them in the mixer but as soon as I use a media key they sync again.
I also have my receiver (Yamaha RX-A3010) configured to reduce the volume when changing inputs by using Scenes you may or may not have such an option.

[glynor]

SPDIF (optical or coaxial) out from computer to z680 set system volume to max and control volume with the pod.
If it is not easily accessible I would set volume on the computer to about 90% and then set the pod volume with a volt meter (how to available if needed). After the pod volume is set you would then use the system volume.
The z680 has a built a in Dolby decoder so you can send 5.1 over SPDIF by changing settings in the output format of the JRiver DSP.

I would like to comment that I wouldn't do this unless you don't have analog 5.1 inputs on that z680 (which I don't know thoroughly, but I know about them generally).  SPDIF does allow you to send digital 5.1, but only AC3 encoded (Dolby Digital) which is compressed fairly heavily.

If you want stereo audio to be stereo, you can send two channels of PCM down the SPDIF, and that's good.  But all multichannel audio will have to be recompressed to AC3 if it isn't already.  And if you do want to upmix music to surround, then you'll have to recompress that to AC3 as well.  If you want to output anything "nicer" than AC3 (BluRay audio) then you'd probably be better off going out of the analog outs on your Creative card.

So, unless the SPDIF works perfectly for your needs (stereo-only PCM, and everything else AC3 compressed), or the z680 only has stereo audio analog ins, then I'd probably stick with the analog outs on your sound card.

[jctcom]

My work around for possible extreme volume changes is I use event ghost on my PC so the volume controls from my keyboard/mouse/remote control the volume of all outputs at the same time. I can still change them in the mixer but as soon as I use a media key they sync again.
I also have my receiver (Yamaha RX-A3010) configured to reduce the volume when changing inputs by using Scenes you may or may not have such an option.

My receiver allows me to set a starting volume level when it is turned on which I do use.  I believe it also allows me to set the volume level for the individual inputs when switching to them and if not I am sure I could add a command to my Harmony remote activity to set the volume level to something.  But I don't see in my case that going through that would be of any advantage.  I don't think in my particular case there is any advantage at all to using the volume control at the PC level over the one in the receiver, especially since it (The volume control in the receiver) is almost certainly fully digital.

Carl.

[Scolex]

I prefer to do things the same as you are Carl I was just giving options in case someone needs them.
I have 2 separate systems:
Yamaha RX-A3010 is connected via HDMI run to my HT all DAC and volume duties are handled by it.
My office has 2 Klipsch ProMedia 4.1 systems I have combined to create a 5.2 system they are connected via analog and I control volume on the PC because the pods/amps are now housed in custom speaker cabinets and not easily accessible. 

[jctcom]

Obviously it depends on your configuration and hardware.  But it sounds to me like:

If you have a recent / decent Receiver with either digital or no noise volume control that is easily accessible then you should be controlling the volume via your Amp / receiver and leave the volume in PC / MC at Max.

If any of the conditions above are not available to you then control via the PC / MC.

Carl.

[Scolex]

Agreed with 1 exception:
If a person is using analog out from the computer they should set the volume to between 80 & 90% depending on sound card quality to prevent distortion/clipping from driving the output stage too hard.

[jctcom]

Agreed with 1 exception:
If a person is using analog out from the computer they should set the volume to between 80 & 90% depending on sound card quality to prevent distortion/clipping from driving the output stage too hard.

Makes total sense.

[glynor]

Obviously it depends on your configuration and hardware.  But it sounds to me like:

If you have a recent / decent Receiver with either digital or no noise volume control that is easily accessible then you should be controlling the volume via your Amp / receiver and leave the volume in PC / MC at Max.

If any of the conditions above are not available to you then control via the PC / MC.

Well, even with Option 1 (even with a decent volume control on the amp), especially if that control is digital, it doesn't hurt to use MC, because MC does digital volume control "right".  So, aside from convenience and ergonomic factors, here's no compelling reason to use the external volume control if you don't want to.  If you have a premium analog volume control... Maybe.  I'm skeptical that the noise differences wouldn't still be all under the noise floor, but... Meh.  If you like it, or it is compelling for whatever reason, go for it (that certainly won't hurt anything if it is a high-quality control).  If you have a digital control, though, like most AVRs will, then quality wise, it is at best a wash.  And if the implementation in your amp happens to be bad...

To be clear, I'm ONLY referring to using MC's Internal Volume control.  Not with MC set to System Volume.

As to the volume settings you and Carl mentioned...what volume settings should I have in Windows, the sound card, the Z680 pod and JRiver? Also, if I set to high won't it impact on sounds from the internet and my other programs? Thanks Again...Andy  

Assuming you can use WASAPI mode for your device (which you can't under Windows XP), and you have it set to Exclusive Mode, MC can automatically manage the system volume when using Internal Volume control.  I don't know for sure how well this works under Kernel Streaming or ASIO (if at all).

MC can automatically set the System Volume to 100% for you (and then back to where it was before you clicked play the instant you click stop). This is very handy when using a computer with analog outs directly to an amp, because you can "set" MC and your other applications independently.  You can just set the system volume "naturally" using the regular Windows volume control as you go to get system sounds, web browser audio, etc set where you'd like it.  But when you play from within MC, it will automatically max-out the System Volume control (hence the best setting for that), while using the nice Internal Volume control capabilities outlined by mwillems above.  You don't have to worry about System Sounds blasting you out next time, though, because the instant you stop playback, MC puts the System Volume back to where it was automatically (and, of course, during playback the other sounds can't happen and blast you because MC grabs Exclusive mode on the device).

It works quite well.  You never end up with those odd volume switches when you play games or use web audio with it set like this.  I used to have this problem forever when using MC, but it is really a solved problem now.

It is easy to set up this way.

1. Click the Volume icon in MC's Standard View, and switch it to Internal Volume.
2. Go to Tools > Options > Audio
3. Make sure you've picked the WASAPI version of your Audio Device from the drop down (these settings may be available with ASIO and Kernel Streaming too, I don't know).
4. Click the Device Settings link.
5. Make sure Open device for exclusive access and Maximize device volume during playback are both enabled.