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[gkerber]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/09/10/bus2.feat.cd.save/index.html

gotta hope this is not the end of MC and portable music players.

[LonWar]

I think this will end up costing a lot more comapny's a lot more money.

As I said in my Copy Protection thread.. Philips is to release a cd copier that is almost guaranteed to copy any copy protected cd.

I have already taken back my Iron Maiden cd as I can not load it to my Nomad. I paid a very large chunk of change to have a nomad and now the record company's are trying to render this useless. I don't use Kazaa and own all my music, except 1.

[escaflo]

I doubt so.

You have one company trying to create code to protect data. You got a whole world worth of programmer trying to defeat it.

The first copy protected cd can be unlock just by using tape and pencil (if I remember correctly).

I have owned 2 protected cd that I manage to rip out using the latest version of AudioGrabber (though EAC don't allow me to rip).

[gkerber]

I totally see the music industries side here, property is being stolen.

It's just so frustrating to purchase a cd and not be able to rip it to my hd for MC.

There will always be ways around copy protection for those of us willing to search for them.  

And worst case, we can do it analogue.

When ripping is outlawed, only outlaws will rip.

[escaflo]

But even if everyone's system works flawlessly, will the new CDs improve sales? Don't bet on it.

In Germany and Japan, where the labels began selling copy-protected CDs in 2000, sales have continued to decline.

I think with more and more copy-protected CDs on the market, the sales will decline even further. Just a hunch.

[phelt]

Feh, CNN should get their interns to proof their technology stories... something approaching accuracy and a measure of knowledge on the subject would be welcome.

A better lead question might be "Can rip-proof music discs be made at all?" The Macrovision protection data corruption mentioned is just a new version of Cactus Data Shield. There's a new version because all of the previous versions have been bypassed in order to return fair use rights to purchasers. Just as this version will be, eventually.

It is nice that they mentioned that sales have continued to decline in regions where such corrupted discs are being sold.

[gkerber]

I think with more and more copy-protected CDs on the market, the sales will decline even further. Just a hunch.

I know MC users will buy less.  If we can't rip to hd, what is the point of buying the cd?

Who would want to have to dirty themselves and actually have to "touch" media to play it.....

[escaflo]

Who would want to have to dirty themselves and actually have to "touch" media to play it.....

Yup, who would want to touch when they got the best jukebox in the world.

Hmm, maybe those who haven't been inspired by MC yet?

[wickesy]

I think the record companies should learn to embrace the Internet rather than fighting it.

Nearly all major businesses now offer substantial discounts for buying or booking online.  If the record companies were to make albums available online with cover art and say a 15% discount over buying in the shops they might sell a lot more units.

There will always be music piracy just as there will always be shoplifting but this might reduce the number of people willing to put up with spyware or the risk of viruses or trojans from P2P networks just to get some free music.

David

[gkerber]

I think the record companies should learn to embrace the Internet rather than fighting it.

Nearly all major businesses now offer substantial discounts for buying or booking online.  If the record companies were to make albums available online with cover art and say a 15% discount over buying in the shops they might sell a lot more units.

I'd buy on line IF I could get full quality lossless downloads.

As far as I know right now, only lossy files are available for download.

[phelt]

I don't think buying dowloadable music will ever be my first choice. Other than the valid quality issues expressed by gkerber, there are more potential points of failure in any download/DRM scheme. Network connection issues for me, the vendor or the card-clearing service; network congestion at any point; broadband availability; local or remote DRM authorization errors; portability issues; sale or transfer of purchase issues; yadda yadda...

The network issues are not necessarily likely events, but the DRM-related issues are current problems.

Here's the deal for me: I like buying CD's and listening to music. But I wind up buying used CD's almost exclusively, because of the cost issues. They lower the prices significantly and leave off the anti-copy annoyances, I buy new CD's. I would rather have factory-fresh discs. It's that simple, for me.

One of the labels has already dropped their wholesale disc prices, and I think this is a step in the right direction. Hopefully other RIAA member companies will remember their Business 101 classes - pricing follows what the market will bear.

[zevele10]

A protected cd needs to be out in protected version EVERYWHERE.
It is not the case.
More countrys still have non protected cds.
Here there is not protected cds.
So ,if i have the last XDC album ,i just can put it on any p2p programs.
On many p2p ,i can put it on APE or WMA 9 lossless .
Only one person puting the cd on a p2p service can make this cd downloaded  few millions times in a week.

If you have a job ,you do not stole bread ,you buy it.

The same concerning music. You stole -- and this ,i'am not sure you can call it to  stole ,because you cannot stole something who does not exist== online music distribution-- because there is not other alternative.

Let say that the music on Emusic his 100% the music you like.
$10 a month ,Lame 192 mp3 ,free to be burn , transfered to your player .

What would you do ?
Give $10 a month to Emusic ? Or go throught all the mess to use a p2p?

OK , mp3 is not lossless , but $10 is a price according to the format.

P2p are here to stay BECAUSE of the labels.

They may close some ,charge a 12 years old girl $2000 for using Kazaa , they may try to sell protected cds , mega protected cds ,ultra-mega ect ect ect.

As long as they still believe the Earth is flat , they will loose .

Your problem is that your country is rule by corporates who really think the Earth is flat.

Listening to: 'R.i.p' from 'Escape' by 'Ram-Zet' on Media Center 9.1

Zev the super node

[AndyCircuit]

Better music, maybe
rip-proof CDs never

[zevele10]

Most of the time , like many here i like to have the original artefact.

Now ,to be able to listen to many things BEFORE you buy it- or no- is also great.

I have an HUDGE collection . Few thousands LPs and few thousands cds.

But i still enjoy getting from Emusic some albums i have on LP. Like it i can take it with me .
Yes ,it is not lossless , but i do not think you use to take your stereo system with you when going out.
And a mp3 Lame 192 VRB sounds better than a cassette in a walkman.

As well i can share it. I do not mean on p2p ,but with friends.

Also ,frankly some albums ,to have it in a good losy format is enought. I would never ever buy  them ,even for cheap.
The same ,to be able  to listen to unknow music , even in MP3 is great. Some you delete them ,some you keep them -but mp3 is enought- ,some you buy it.

I do the same when i get cds from friends. I rip all to lossless format.
Latter ,when listening to it ,or i delete ,or i keep in lossless ,or i convert to OGG.
And, a  few ,i buy it , even if i have it in lossless format on my computer.

[DougHamm]

I have already taken back my Iron Maiden cd as I can not load it to my Nomad. I paid a very large chunk of change to have a nomad and now the record company's are trying to render this useless. I don't use Kazaa and own all my music, except 1.

You know, I just bought the new Maiden and the new Deep Purple - both EMI, both "Copy Controlled".  MC9.1 ripped them both from my cheap Lite-On DVD-Rom hooked up to my HTPC without any issue whatsoever.  I now have them as lossless WMA9 files on my HTPC.  Even PowerDVD found the .cda tracks and played them, regardless of the fact that they don't show up in My Computer.  Did you actually try ripping?  If not, I'd buy that album again and try.

If EMI is going to standardize on this, at least they standardized on one that doesn't work very well at all.

See thread on avsforum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=300617

[modelmaker]

Rip-proofing CDs isn't going to help the recording industry at all, you'd think they'd realize that from the european statistics.

When the industry transitioned from LP to CD and the price of an album almost trippled, I decided then that I would not support the industry in this gouging of the public (I know I'm only one person). Sure, the startup costs were huge, but the music sales were increasing especially after MTV started, so the corporations made their capital investments back in no time. Did we (the consumer) get a price reduction? Heck no! Not if it would decrease their profits.

Let's not forget the Movie industry, they started all this copy-protecting in the early days of VHS and Beta video products with varying degrees of success. MCA was the worst. Our techs at JVC (I was a sales rep) built the first descramblers and we(the reps) installed them at the customer's request.

When the first Advent projection TV became available I bought one (and of course updated since) because I was also disgusted with the rise in the price of movie tickets and movie star salaries. 20 million dollars for 6 months work? Gimme a break. The same actually goes for atheletes.

I know I sound cheap, I'm not, it's about the principle. I have other things I can spend my hard earned cash on. I believe in reasonable compensation for product or services rendered.

So here I sit with my 12 000 LPs, 1000 cassettes, about 25 "new" CDs, 2500 "used" CDs, 3500 CDRs (mostly made from my LPs & Cassettes), and just over 12 000 music files on my HDs (also from media I purchased). All bought and paid for myself. And to manage all this: J River Media Center of course!

I do subscribe to Emusic - very good value. 79 cents a song Real/Rhapsody for lossy media and non of the other stuff you get with store bought is too much, if they bring the price down below 50 cents then we might have something to talk about. Or 79 cents for lossless and no copy crap is OK too.

To conclude this very long post, I will continue to only buy used or "sale priced" CDs and still refuse to pay retail. I am also, with J River's permission, going to print out a copy of this thread to send to my congressmen and senators. (They are probably getting tired of hearing from me;  I have been mailing them on this subject for some time)

Regards, Jay.

[Charlemagne 8]

Any model that does not include cooperation by the consumer is sure to fail eventually.

I saw a clue as to why this is a hard concept for the Music industry to grasp: They said that "A person doesn't shoplift because they know they will probably get caught..." (maybe not a direct quote but that was the statement).

Well, I think that's wrong. A person doesn't shoplift or commit any number of "small" crimes because they are afraid they'll get caught ... they don't do these things because they know they are WRONG.

You can't legislate morality, you can't ensure morality with punishment. The only way is to convince people that it is the wrong thing to do. Then they won't do it.

The threat of punishment is not a deterrent, it only creates stealthiness. Many people view it as a game.

The Industry is working very hard to ensure that more and more people play that game.
CVIII

[LonWar]

You know, I just bought the new Maiden and the new Deep Purple - both EMI, both "Copy Controlled".  MC9.1 ripped them both from my cheap Lite-On DVD-Rom hooked up to my HTPC without any issue whatsoever.  I now have them as lossless WMA9 files on my HTPC.  Even PowerDVD found the .cda tracks and played them, regardless of the fact that they don't show up in My Computer.  Did you actually try ripping?  If not, I'd buy that album again and try.

If EMI is going to standardize on this, at least they standardized on one that doesn't work very well at all.

See thread on avsforum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=300617

Man you got to be kidding,,,, You got it to work!

I tried ripping it for about 8-10 hours. Installed about 8 different programs.. And NOTHING!

Maybe some cd players don't recognise the copy protection?

All I have is a burner, maybe I should buy just a cd rom?

[DougHamm]

Man you got to be kidding,,,, You got it to work!

I tried ripping it for about 8-10 hours. Installed about 8 different programs.. And NOTHING!

Maybe some cd players don't recognise the copy protection?

All I have is a burner, maybe I should buy just a cd rom?

Geez, that sucks!  What exactly did it do (or not do) when you tried ripping?  As I say, I had no issues whatsoever...none.  I'm like, "What the hell?"

I only used my Lite-on DVD-Rom.  I'm now going to try my 2nd drive, a Lite-on CD burner, to see if I get the same success.  If it works, then either Lite-on's mechanics aren't phased by the protection, or EMI Canada didn't apply the protection properly to either disc (though the disc looks exactly like a Copy-Control disc looks, both physically and in file structure).  

If the burner doesn't work, then maybe DVD-Rom's (or at least Lite-On ones) are immune to the protection.  I'll let you know.

-Doug

P.S. If you are going to repurchase the CD to support Maiden (what, 12 band members now?   ) and you are on MSN Messenger, look me up and maybe we can arrange something re: the lossless files.  doug@generationsvp.com

UPDATE:  Just re-ripped a song from Deep Purple's "Bananas" from the CD-RW, rather than my DVD-Rom.  Rip speed was slower (~4.5x) but it's possible the drive just doesn't do DAE as well as the DVD-Rom.  Anyway, I'm listening to it now and it's absolutely fine.  File size, bitrate, and everything is the same as the track burned from the DVD-Rom last night.

So... ?!  Either I have a Blessed HTPC, Lite-On drives ROCK, or EMI Canada screwed up the distro of these discs.  Any which way, I'm happy.

-Doug

[LonWar]

I guess I'll buy another copy (returned the other on in frustration)

I'm going to see my brother in law on Sat, he has an older computer, I try his...

Thanks,