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[jimdukey]

It will play my one DSD 4 File, but files upsampled to 4X DSD sound phasey, weird, and play at too slow a tempo, very strange sounding.
Upsampling to 2X DSD is fine too.
FYI, thanks.

[Peregrino]

It will play my one DSD 4 File, but files upsampled to 4X DSD sound phasey, weird, and play at too slow a tempo, very strange sounding.
Upsampling to 2X DSD is fine too.
FYI, thanks.

Strange, I have the e22 as well. I can get MC 21 to convert any PCM to DSD4 just fine, but I can't get any of my DSD4 files to play at all. When you say you can't upsample to DSD4, are you referring to PCM or DSD1/DSD2 files?

[jimdukey]

Hi, Wow, we have opposite problems!

I will try several different sorts of Files today, see what happens, and report.

I just got it yesterday, could have been user-error.

[jimdukey]

Well, it’s a no-go for upsampling to 4XDSD.
It either plays the file at 2xDSD, or it has choppy distortion while up sampling to 4X.
It will play a Native 4X DSD File, tho.
I bought the upgrade specifically for the Upsampling to 4X capability.

[JimH]

Could you run a benchmark (under Help) and paste the results here?  Your machine may not have the power to do the upsampling.

[Peregrino]

Could you run a benchmark (under Help) and paste the results here?  Your machine may not have the power to do the upsampling.

And is there anything I can do to get Native DSD 4 files to play (which won't, even though it will upsample PCM to DSD4)?

[Awesome Donkey]

Running the benchmark will tell us how powerful your machine is. DSD can be pretty intensive on the CPU, especially multichannel.

[jimdukey]

Hi, Well, this morning it’s working, upsampling to DSD 4!!!
I had the Buffer set too low.
First try after resetting didn’t upsample, but the 2nd try it started working.
User error! Thanks alot for your replies!

[Peregrino]

Running the benchmark will tell us how powerful your machine is. DSD can be pretty intensive on the CPU, especially multichannel.

2 channel only. Are you saying it is more CPU intensive for JRiver to play DSD256 files than to convert PCM to DSD256 on the fly? Seems a bit strange. DSD256 plays fine on Audirvana, HQPlayer, Decibel, etc on this computer, and PCM files converted to DSD256 on-the-fly play fine. Here's the Benchmark:

=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 4.222 seconds Single-threaded floating point math... 2.600 seconds Multi-threaded integer math... 2.198 seconds Multi-threaded mixed math... 1.408 seconds
Score: 1822
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 0.788 seconds Flood filling... 0.413 seconds
Direct copying... 1.400 seconds
Small renders... 1.071 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 1.349 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 0.796 seconds
Score: 3782
Running 'Database' benchmark... Create database... 0.477 seconds Populate database... 1.458 seconds Save database... 0.146 seconds Reload database... 0.056 seconds Search database... 1.074 seconds Sort database... 1.083 seconds Group database... 0.836 seconds
Score: 4192
JRMark (version 21.0.: 3265

[JimH]

That's a little better than the average new machine.

[jimdukey]

Interesting, Decibel won’t play DSD 4 for me, get error message.
That’s in ASIO and Core Audio/Exa E 22.
Oh well, MC 21 and HQ are plenty.
DSD 4 is very cool and analog-like.

[Peregrino]

That's a little better than the average new machine.

So why do you think it won't play Native DSD256 files when it will play PCM up-sampled to DSD256 on the fly? Especially when jimdukey is reporting the same DAC (exaSound e22) playing DSD256 files successfully...

[jimdukey]

If you uncheck Bitstreaming, it should work.
I thought that Bitstreaming went with the DSD Studio options,
but apparently not, let us know!

[Awesome Donkey]

I believe when you disable bitstreaming, it's converting DSD to PCM instead of playing native DSD.

[jimdukey]

Hi, I bought an album in both DSD 128 and DSD 256.
With Bitstreaming set to None, the Dac reads DSD 11.28 MH for both versions.
When Bitstreaming is set to DSD, no upsampling occurs, both Files play in their Native Resolution.
Am I misunderstanding what is happening?

[jimdukey]

Actually, it plays the DSD 256 File, no matter the setting, so this doesn’t help that MC 21 user…
As long as the DSP Studio is set to 4X over Dop.
My problem has been lack of oversampling to DSD 256.
Un checking Bitstreaming, along with increasing Buffer seem to have worked.
Am I just listening to DSD resampled to PCM and back to DSD 4?

[Peregrino]

I believe when you disable bitstreaming, it's converting DSD to PCM instead of playing native DSD.

That's what I thought too. According to exaSound you have to set bitstreaming to DSD to play DSD

[jimdukey]

If that’s the case, then I’m back to square one-
No upsampling to DSD 4.
With Bitstreaming unchecked ( it says “None" Recommended ), thv Dac says evrything is fine.
But is it…?

[jimdukey]

Hi, This is a bit confusing!
I emailed George at Exa about this too.

[jimdukey]

According to the Exa Setup Guide for MC ( 20 ),
JRiver is working to implement ASIO for the Exa, instead of Core audio.
Will that help clear things up?

[blgentry]

As I understand it, any time you change the sampling rate in JRiver, you are going through PCM processing to get there.  So "upconverting" from DSD128 to DSD256 goes:  DSD128 > PCM > DSD256

Which makes sense from a technical perspective.  But from a sound quality perspective, why would you want to do so?  Forget the PCM step in the middle.  Why would you want to try to upconvert in the first place?  You can't ADD information.  There's nothing to add.  If you like the results, I won't argue with you though.

Brian.

[jimdukey]

Never the less, it doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to.
With Bitstreaming set to DSD, and DSP Studio set to 4X over Dop, no upsampling occurs.
What is MC 21 Supposed to do?
Is it doing it?
I don’t know.
I don’t want DSD converted to PCM, then back to DSD.
HQ doesn’t do that.
DSD 256 on the HQ Player is quite good.
More refined and Analog-like, I would say.
Is MC 21 “wired” backwards, as far as Bitstreaming/DSP Studio are concerned?
I bought MC 21 specifically for 4x DSD up sampling.
If it doesn’t do it without converting to PCM, then I’ll continue with HQ instead.
I think all exaSound owners are interested in your response!

[blgentry]

^ I don't understand what you're asking or saying.  MC *is* upconverting your files, right?

As far as "wired backwards", I don't know what you mean.  Bitstreaming is supposed to pass along the data for DSD untouched.  So DSD128 should play as DSD128 and DSD256 should play as DSD256. 

The other way to do it is with and Output Format setting.  Output Format converts things up or down in order to get to your target output format.  With it set to DSD256 (4x DSD) everything should get converted to that.  Is it not doing that?

BTW, I'm by no means an expert on this, nor do I speak for JRiver.  I was just interjecting here because I'm constantly baffled by people wanting to upconvert digital audio files.  Perhaps I should have just stayed silent. 

Brian.

[jimdukey]

No problem.
Have you heard exasound E22 with the HQ Player?
That’s what it’s all about.
I definitely don’t want that extra conversion stage.
Also, I guess I don’t really understand how to use MC 21.
If I can’t get that ( upsampling WO/converting first to PCM ), here, no problem, I won’t use MC 21.
Just looking for Options.

[blgentry]

Have you heard exasound E22 with the HQ Player?
That’s what it’s all about.

I have not had the opportunity to do so.  So no.

If I can’t get that ( upsampling WO/converting first to PCM ), here, no problem, I won’t use MC 21.
Just looking for Options.

It's my understanding that upconverting (or down converting) to/from DSD goes through PCM in the middle.  But I could be WRONG.  I'm pretty sure I read it, but again, I don't speak for JRiver.  Perhaps someone more official can comment on this.

Good luck in your musical endeavors.   

Brian.

[Matt]

It's my understanding that upconverting (or down converting) to/from DSD goes through PCM in the middle.  But I could be WRONG.  I'm pretty sure I read it, but again, I don't speak for JRiver.  Perhaps someone more official can comment on this.

Every handling except bitstreaming the DSD natively will go through a PCM conversion stage.  It's a pretty awesome quality, so whether that's audible at all is debatable.

[jimdukey]

So, if i like it, I shouldn’t worry about it?
I guess that’s what I need to understand!
And that turning OFF bitstreaming is the way to get up sampling?
TIA.

[blgentry]

So, if i like it, I shouldn’t worry about it?

As with all things audio, the answer to that question is YES.

And that turning OFF bitstreaming is the way to get up sampling?

Yes again.

Brian.

[jimdukey]

OK, Thanks, I learned a thing or two today!
As long as it’s working, and I know how to work it...

[jimdukey]

What about upsampling PCM to 2x or 4x DSD?
Is it Pcm-Dsd-Pcm-Dsd?
Upsampling DSD to 2x or 4x DSD can’t be done without the PCM step?

[blgentry]

What about upsampling PCM to 2x or 4x DSD?
Is it Pcm-Dsd-Pcm-Dsd?

With Output Format set to 4x DSD, PCM will definitely get upsampled to 4x DSD.  That's what output format is designed to do:  Convert everything to that format.  It should just be:  PCM > 4x DSD .  No intermediate steps required.

Upsampling DSD to 2x or 4x DSD can’t be done without the PCM step?

I was thinking about this the other day.  I don't know the math on this (haven't looked it up), but it seems like it would be very tricky to convert directly from one "speed" of DSD to another "speed".  If you were very smart, you could probably figure out an algorithm to do it "direct".  But, in JRiver it's a moot point.  Matt (one of the JRiver developers and a VERY knowledgeable guy about digital audio) has confirmed that JRiver goes through PCM when doing conversions to DSD.  So that's a done deal and isn't likely to be changed.

Brian.

[jimdukey]

Thanks!
So, is the PCM-4x DSD Conversion “Purer” than converting DSD?
Is the Conversion in DSD considered “Pure?”
isn’t there a Sonic Price, or not?
Maybe converting DSD to PCM back to 4X DSD is just a gimmick.
I hope not!!!!

I wonder if the Sony HAP Z1 has a PCM stage when upsampling DSD 64 to DSD 128-

[Hendrik]

You cannot improve quality by converting the audio between several formats. You can't create whats not there.
The only difference is that some DACs work better with certain formats.

[jimdukey]

On my exSound E22/HQ Player, and Korg DS DAC 100, and Sony Hap Z1, converting on-the-fly, the higher rates sound better, no question to me, on my systems.
Not more “Information”, but a better Presentation.

[liquidsmoke]

Hi,
Sorry for the thread ressurrection, but I am trying to figure this same point out too. I'm using JRiver 21 on windows with a 2qute usb dac. I have bitstreaming setting set to 'DSD', and with this set alone I can play DSD64 SACD rip files directly to my DAC and they show up as DSD, albeit without volume control However if I also want to convert all my PCM flac files to DSD128 or DSD256 on the fly by using the output dsp settings (and also have working volume), I only get PCM>DSD working. For files that are already in DSD64 they do not play properly,  just get some white noise!? Is this a bug?