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[pcg]

I've been running JRiver MC20 for 4-5 months with my Oppo BDP-95. I recently purchased a Denon x7200wa and one of the things I bought it for was to support streaming DSD (.dff) files to it. Also because its a renderer. I can stream FLAC files without problems, but when I attempt to stream a 2.8 2 channel .dff file to the Denon I see (on the Denon screen routed to my TV) the artwork come up, the file type shows WAV 176kz and I hear hiss.

I've got Bitstream DSD checked in advanced on the DLNA Servers page. It doesn't matter what I set Audio>Format to (PCM 24, PCM L16 No header, etc.) things stay the same (which is actually what I would expect).

Note that when I looked at setting the Denon up as a device it says to configure things through the DNLA servers page.

I've enclosed a screen shot below. I'm sure this is something simple that I've missed and any help would be appreciated. A LOT!  

By the way, when I put this same file on a USB thumb drive and attach it to the Denon it plays as a DSD file, so the file appears not to be the problem.

[dtc]

It sounds like the Denon may play straight dff and not DSD over DoPe. DoPe is a way of encoding a DSD into a PCM file. If the Denon does not recognize DoPe it would play as noise. You might try turning off DSD over DoPe and see if that works. It is checked in your screenshot. I am not a DLNA guy, so I am not sure if dff will bitstream directly in DLNA, without DoPe.

[pcg]

It sounds like the Denon may play straight dff and not DSD over DoPe. DoPe is a way of encoding a DSD into a PCM file. If the Denon does not recognize DoPe it would play as noise. You might try turning off DSD over DoPe and see if that works. It is checked in your screenshot. I am not a DLNA guy, so I am not sure if dff will bitstream directly in DLNA, without DoPe.

I tried unchecking the Bitstream box before sending my original mail and I got a big piece of artwork showing on the screen with no sound.  I saw someone else post about this some time back on some forum but there was no helpful response to it.  Maybe someone will be able to help.

Thanks for your suggestion.

[AndrewFG]

Please download the DMR Analyzer from my sig, and post the test log file here.

[pcg]

Please download the DMR Analyzer from my sig, and post the test log file here.

I downloaded the tool and ran it.  The report is attached.  I was going to try and run a file but none showed up in the left side of the screen.  I only have one .dff file for test purposes I downloaded.  Like I said, it plays as DSD when I play it from a USB flash drive.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

[AndrewFG]

Thanks for the report. It confirms that the renderer does indeed support DSD. Therefore I would suggest you try to push a really basic DFF file with single rate sampling, no meta data, and no Dope.

[pcg]

Thanks for the report. It confirms that the renderer does indeed support DSD. Therefore I would suggest you try to push a really basic DFF file with single rate sampling, no meta data, and no Dope.

Is there a place I can download a file that meets your criteria?  I downloaded the Schubert Death and Maiden DSD64 stereo file (2L-093) that was 120MB from http://www.2l.no/hires/.  That's all I have besides a multi channel file I doubt would work. I have a zillion SACD's I'm going to eventually convert to iso and/or DSD files but that is after I get this working and understand what the files need to look like or how to configure JRiver properly.

[pcg]

At the suggestion of someone on another forum I tried OShare to play the file. I opened up the OShare DLNA published site and navigated through the menus where the file was and selected the file to play it. OShare /Denon could play the file as a DSD this way without a problem. Since I had always been pushing the files from JRiver through my computer, JRemote or the Denon app I decided to try to navigate to the file via the DLNA (Audiophile 24-bit DAC) I had set up in the same manner. When I did that I was able to play the file as a DSD file.

So the question now is why can't I use the JRiver screen, JRemote or the Denon app to play the file as I desire? It seems like there must be some kind of setting issue, or a problem with JRiver or the Denon. Do you have any other suggestions?

Any further help resolving this issue would be appreciated, although I know I can at least play the DSD files in this manner.

[AndrewFG]

I don't really understand your previous post. Are you saying that it works you when you "pull" the dsd file but it does not work when you "push" the same file?

[pcg]

I don't really understand your previous post. Are you saying that it works you when you "pull" the dsd file but it does not work when you "push" the same file?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.  On the Denon receiver there is a screen that shows the possible Media Player connections.  If I choose the JRiver one I get a folder.  When I navigate through the folders to the file and attempt to play it, it shows up as a DSD file and it works.  If I am in the JRiver application on WIndows and I choose the Denon receiver.  Then select a file from within the JRIver application to play to the Denon, the file comes through and I get a big piece of artwork and no sound.  Someone on another forum speculated the Denon renderer wasn't working, or some type of communication between the JRiver application and the Denon renderer wasn't working.

The good news is I can play a DSD file this way without having to attach it physically, but it isn't as nice as using JRemote remote to push the file to the receiver.

[JimH]

What you've described is this:

MC works as a DLNA Server when you play from the device (pull).

The device doesn't work as a DLNA Renderer when you try to play to it from MC (push).

This is fairly common with other devices, and it is a problem with the device, not with MC.

AndrewFG is expert on this subject.  His program may help you find out why.

[pcg]

Remember that this only applies to DSD.  I can send any size FLAC I want and I can push that fine.

[AndrewFG]

I think it might help if you could turn on logging in MC (Help / Logging) and record what happens when you fail to push the Dsd file

[vrmerlin]

I'm seeing the exact same behavior with the exact same receiver. I don't understand why this is seen as a problem with the receiver though - if it works when the file is pulled, why can't it work if the file is pushed? The Gizmo app is a far better way to bring up music, and I'd much rather use that (or the JRiver application) then going through the Denon interface, which is kinda klunky.

John

[AndrewFG]

If it works when the file is pulled, why can't it work if the file is pushed?

That is a good question. Best addressed to the manufacturer.

[pcg]

I think it might help if you could turn on logging in MC (Help / Logging) and record what happens when you fail to push the Dsd file

At AndrewFG's suggestion I went into JRiver and duplicated the problem. I started JRiver, selected the Denon receiver under playing now.  Chose a DSD file and attempted to play it.  This creates a large artwork image to show up on the TV screen with no sound.  I attached the log file from this exercise and a picture of the TV with the large artwork.

Note that if I try to send a FLAC file using these same steps it works fine.  I have enclosed an image of that working.

I then went to the Denon receiver, chose the DLNA server JRiver broadcasts from the Denon, navigated to the same file and it plays.  So as I've said and another Denon user confirimed, you can pull a DSD file, but you can't push it successfully.  That means JRemote or the Denon remote are worthless for playing DSD files, which I did not expect to be a problem

I obviously don't know where the fault lies.  I would just like the problem solved.  I would think it would be in both Denon's and JRiver's interest for this to work.  Hopefully it can be resolved some how.  It does make me wonder if this problem is common across receivers or not.  I have no way of knowing.  My guess is that it would be impacting all Denon and Marantz receivers.

[dtc]

pcg - People here understand your frustration. These are hard problems. Have you called Denon and asked them about it? They may well say it is JRiver's fault, but it seems like making that call is part of trying to solve the problem. You have a flagship receiver. They should respond to you.

A second option is to see how some other player, like foobar, works with the receiver. If foobar works, then it points to JRiver. If neither work, then it points to Denon.

None of this is easy. But since people here do have have your receiver, you are probably going to have to also get some input from Denon. They may say it is JRiver's fault, but it is part of the process. You could even suggest that they get a copy of JRiver (free trial) and see how it works, given that there are 2 people here with the same problem. Point them to this thread if they will listen.

[pcg]

pcg - People here understand your frustration. These are hard problems. Have you called Denon and asked them about it? They may well say it is JRiver's fault, but it seems like making that call is part of trying to solve the problem. You have a flagship receiver. They should respond to you.

A second option is to see how some other player, like foobar, works with the receiver. If foobar works, then it points to JRiver. If neither work, then it points to Denon.

None of this is easy. But since people here do have have your receiver, you are probably going to have to also get some input from Denon. They may say it is JRiver's fault, but it is part of the process. You could even suggest that they get a copy of JRiver (free trial) and see how it works, given that there are 2 people here with the same problem. Point them to this thread if they will listen.

I intend to contact Denon next.  To be honest I felt like I had a better shot at getting support from JRiver, but as you said these are difficult problems.  I can easily see this ending up in a finger pointing exercise with no solution forthcoming.  I will see shortly.  I will be sure once it reaches it conclusion to let everyone know on all the forums I have posted what transpired.  I appreciate everyone's efforts who have attempted to help me with the problem.

[AndrewFG]

At AndrewFG's suggestion I went into JRiver and duplicated the problem. I started JRiver, selected the Denon receiver under playing now.  Chose a DSD file and attempted to play it.  This creates a large artwork image to show up on the TV screen with no sound.  I attached the log file from this exercise and a picture of the TV with the large artwork.

Thanks for posting the log file. But unfortunately it is incomplete. The Zip should contain two files - namely System.txt and Log.txt - but in your case the Log.txt file was missing. Can you please try it again.

[pcg]

Thanks for posting the log file. But unfortunately it is incomplete. The Zip should contain two files - namely System.txt and Log.txt - but in your case the Log.txt file was missing. Can you please try it again.

Here is the log.txt.  I opened the dialog and saved it at the point where the artwork shows up on the Denon and no sound occurs.

[pcg]

Here is the log.txt.  I opened the dialog and saved it at the point where the artwork shows up on the Denon and no sound occurs.

Here is the log with a good FLAC 24/192 being pushed from JRiver and accepted/played by the Denon.

[AndrewFG]

Thanks for posting the log files. There is a clear difference between the log for the flac file, and the log for the .dsf file

• FLAC:  MC issues the push commands to play the track; and the Denon issues an HTTP GET for the track content
• DSF :  MC issues the push commands to play the track; and the Denon does NOT issue an HTTP GET ..

Sadly this more or less confirms that the problem is with the Denon and not with MC.

In case you want to try further experimenting, I have now added a couple of DSF test files to my DMR Analyser application (download it from my sig). So you could also try testing whether the DMRA is able to push DSF to the Denon. Tip: turn on HTTP logging before running the tests, and post the log file here.

[pcg]

Thanks for posting the log files. There is a clear difference between the log for the flac file, and the log for the .dsf file

• FLAC:  MC issues the push commands to play the track; and the Denon issues an HTTP GET for the track content
• DSF :  MC issues the push commands to play the track; and the Denon does NOT issue an HTTP GET ..

Sadly this more or less confirms that the problem is with the Denon and not with MC.

In case you want to try further experimenting, I have now added a couple of DSF test files to my DMR Analyser application (download it from my sig). So you could also try testing whether the DMRA is able to push DSF to the Denon. Tip: turn on HTTP logging before running the tests, and post the log file here.

I loaded your new version of the DMR analyzer.  I finally figured out how to run the DSD 2.8 test and it came up on the Denon receiver and looked normal and showed DSD 2.8.  All I heard were two test tones, no music.  Not sure if that was what to expect.  I attached the log files and a picture of the file playing.  Will be interested in your feedback.  And by the way, thanks for your help.

[pcg]

What you've described is this:

MC works as a DLNA Server when you play from the device (pull).

The device doesn't work as a DLNA Renderer when you try to play to it from MC (push).

This is fairly common with other devices, and it is a problem with the device, not with MC.

AndrewFG is expert on this subject.  His program may help you find out why.

Jim, can you explain why JRiver doesn't work as a renderer, but AndrewFG's process does?

[AndrewFG]

Jim, can you explain why JRiver doesn't work as a renderer, but AndrewFG's process does?

I think the OP's question is why MC doesn't work as a control point / server (not renderer)..

++++++

By the way, the DMRA renderer report shows that the Denon claims to support the following mime-types

http-get:*:audio/dsd:*
http-get:*:audio/x-dsd:*

Note that the test conducted by my DMRA was pushing an audio/x-dsf file. So on one hand it claims to support Dff but MC can't push that format. But on the other hand it does not claim to support Dsf but my DMRA can push that format. All very mysterious...

Perhaps somebody at JRiver can interpret the nuances of the MC Log.Txt posted by the OP above, better than I ??

EDIT:  I think I sense a hint of what could be going on. The renderer advertises support for DSD. The OP is trying to use MC to push a DFF (which fails). And my DMRA pushes a DSF (which succeeds). So the issue is probably either a) something to do with mime types in the Content-Type header, or alternatively embedded meta data in the music track.

[JimH]

Bob is on vacation for another week.

[AndrewFG]

I just edited my earlier post above...

[pcg]

Thanks to JimH and AndrewFG for responding. 

I work in IT in a completely different field (customer care and billing) and this is technically much different than my background and you guys are way out of my league.  I am the user in this scenario seeing one work and the other not and wondering why.  Just wanting the problem to get solved like the customers my company deals with.   This seems like something that could eventually be solved, but it could just take a while. I see my company in situations where some small thing fixes a problem like this. Would probably help if I could get Denon in touch with you guys, but I am not convinced I have that kind of power over time and space.

Again thanks and let me know if there is any other information I can provide.  I already sent a message to Denon but haven't gotten a response yet, other than to let me know they received it.  And I must say their method for reporting issues is sub optimal (trying to find the proper method to send an email to the right place is not easy).

[pcg]

I think the OP's question is why MC doesn't work as a control point / server (not renderer)..

++++++

By the way, the DMRA renderer report shows that the Denon claims to support the following mime-types

http-get:*:audio/dsd:*
http-get:*:audio/x-dsd:*

Note that the test conducted by my DMRA was pushing an audio/x-dsf file. So on one hand it claims to support Dff but MC can't push that format. But on the other hand it does not claim to support Dsf but my DMRA can push that format. All very mysterious...

Perhaps somebody at JRiver can interpret the nuances of the MC Log.Txt posted by the OP above, better than I ??

EDIT:  I think I sense a hint of what could be going on. The renderer advertises support for DSD. The OP is trying to use MC to push a DFF (which fails). And my DMRA pushes a DSF (which succeeds). So the issue is probably either a) something to do with mime types in the Content-Type header, or alternatively embedded meta data in the music track.

Just as an FYI, when I use the Denon remote to navigate to the JRiver DLNA source and choose the DSD files, both the .DSF and .DFF files I choose play.  Not sure that means anything but thought I would pass it along.

[AndrewFG]

Just as an FYI, when I use the Denon remote to navigate to the JRiver DLNA source and choose the DSD files, both the .DSF and .DFF files I choose play.  Not sure that means anything but thought I would pass it along.

It is certainly possible that the renderer can play different media on Pull than it can on Push (don't ask me why though..)

One other thing you might like to test: We learned that my DMRA can successfully push DSF files to the Denon. So let us see if MC can push those exact same files. That way we can tell if the issue is somehow due to the file content, or due to behavioral differences between the DMRA and MC. Add the DMRA directory to your MC music library ( folder:  <C:\Program Files (x86)\Whitebear DMR Analyser> ) and then try to push those two DSF files using MC..

[pcg]

It is certainly possible that the renderer can play different media on Pull than it can on Push (don't ask me why though..)

One other thing you might like to test: We learned that my DMRA can successfully push DSF files to the Denon. So let us see if MC can push those exact same files. That way we can tell if the issue is somehow due to the file content, or due to behavioral differences between the DMRA and MC. Add the DMRA directory to your MC music library ( folder:  <C:\Program Files (x86)\Whitebear DMR Analyser> ) and then try to push those two DSF files using MC..

I tried sending the file through JRiver and I got a picture of a folder filling the entire TV screen with no sound.  This mirrors the behavior of my own files that I tried to send.

[AndrewFG]

Ok. So it is evidently a problem in MC then. We need to wait for Bob to come back from his vacation

[pcg]

Ok. So it is evidently a problem in MC then. We need to wait for Bob to come back from his vacation

AndrewFG.  Obviously there is a difference in behavior between your product and MC, but is it clear from the fact those differences exist that there is no fault in the Denon?  Are there any other tests I can run in the meantime that would be of any benefit?  Do you believe you know what changes need to be made to make this work?

Thanks for your help

[AndrewFG]

Let's wait for Bob..

[pcg]

Let's wait for Bob..

It's been a week.  Exactly when does Bob get back from vacation?

[vrmerlin]

Any progress on this problem, that I am having, as well? Is Bob back from vacation...?

[pcg]

After a really long wait I finally received a response from Denon. It's at the bottom of this email.  It basically says if it can read the file on JRiver then they must not be sending it right (and I am probably being kind by giving them too much credit here as you will see with their actual response).  Unfortunately someone/something is wrong and the problem still remains. I'll wait another week and then post these results in all the forums I originally tried just so people have some history and know what to expect with a JRiver / D+M / DSD combination where JRiver attempts to send the file.


From Denon:

Good Afternoon,
 
If the 7200 can read the DSD from the media server option there's nothing faulty in the decoding of the unit. It's possible the JRiver is not allowing DSD as a playback option. Please check your playback options on the JRiver to see if the it's limiting DSD playback.
 
Thanks,
Bryan
Denon

[bob]

There is always a difference between push and pull in the metadata that's provided.
In a pull the filters are set by the requestor. In a push all of the fields are sent because there is not a request.

My guess is the mimetype or bitrate (there are a LOT of broken devices that expect the bitrate in a non-standard format).

Andrew, what mimetype are you sending for the file?

[vrmerlin]

I too am having the problem that Andrew described.

Bob, what do you mean by "what MIME type?" I'm not sure what you are looking for. We simply are telling MC20 to send the DSD file to the X7200WA, and it's not working (as described above). Is there a setting we are missing?

John

[vrmerlin]

This conversation appears to have died, but the problem still remains. I paid for JRiver specifically for the DSD feature (otherwise, Plex serves my needs). Is there any way can get DSD files working properly on the Denon X700WA?

[bob]

I too am having the problem that Andrew described.

Bob, what do you mean by "what MIME type?" I'm not sure what you are looking for. We simply are telling MC20 to send the DSD file to the X7200WA, and it's not working (as described above). Is there a setting we are missing?

John

When you tell MC to send the file to the renderer, it does a lot more than just copy a file, you would need to understand how DLNA works to know what I'm referring to.
The first thing that's sent to the renderer is a Content Directory entry. This includes things like all of the metadata related to the file as well as bitrate, duration, sample rate, bitdepth, MIMETYPE, etc as well as a URL for the rendering device to retrieve the file from. The rendering device will filter on these parameters to decide if it can play the URL it's being sent. The MIMETYPE is very important because the renderer can't use the name of the file to decide if it can play it since the name doesn't have to have anything to do with the filetype (it can and is with some servers totally gibberish, for example a hash 4$523afoo).

If the renderer doesn't like the mimetype, bitdepth, sample rate, etc it will refuse to request the file. The mimetypes are not completely standardized. A lot of rendering devices use their own somewhat faulty definitions.
Also, as I said many renderers will filter on the content directory information differently depending on whether they are PUSHED a file or are PULLING a file from their own UI.

On top of this, all renderers that can play files from say a USB stick or a network share use different logic for those media. Since they don't receive information in advance about a file like they do with DLNA, they resort to the file based way of deciding if they can play the media or not (i.e., file extensions and/or reading the file to find header or tag info).

[blgentry]

Doesn't this Denon support DSD over HDMI? 

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX7200WA/NA/EN/GFNFSYdtphpnek.php

Plug in a cable and it should work.

Brian.

[jpu018]

Hi folks

Any progress on that issue ? I also own a Denon receiver (X4000), and I would also be interested.

May be somewhat off topic, but could there be a work-around in using a different DSD player, such as a DSD-compatible BD-player (Oppo, Sony, or whatever...) ? If such a configuration be discussed in another topic, please let me know.

[jpu018]

Doesn't this Denon support DSD over HDMI?  

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX7200WA/NA/EN/GFNFSYdtphpnek.php

Plug in a cable and it should work.

Brian.

Hi
It probably supports DSD / HDMI when played from a physical DSD player (my X4000 does, w/ DSD issued from a Sony BDP-S370).
I understand the pb lies w/ files played from a PC, JRiver acting as DLNA server.
In my previous post I was wondering about a kind of twisted way of getting around : PC -> DLNA capable - hardware player -> Receiver

[eric.ca]

Let me join this ...

I'm not a full geak but I do have a denon 7200WA, Synology DS415+ and some win/mac computer.
I was using the build in capabilities of DEnon to access my DLNA library from Synology but after reading many comment I decided to join the fun and I am now trying JRiver MC 22

my music files on DS415 are in several shared folders one is FLAC, another is ALAC (I was trying), I also have a DSD and MUSIC folder... all those folder are defined in Synology DLNA

I am very new to DSD, having most of my file as FLAC (from CD). I also have few SACD but no playstation so no SACD->DSD 

But I am curious and went over the net and got few DSD files, stereo and multi channel... most of them DSD 64 as I know this is my limit.

Now I got MC20 and try to it setup...


I don't really know what I did but I have in MC my DSD file as double (forgive me I'm new) and I can see they are not shared by MC the same way, in the filename I see:

mydsdfile | artiste | ...| \\Synology\DSD\myDSDfile.dsf
mydsdfile | artiste | ...| http://192.168.x.y:50002/m/MP3/12345.mp3     <weird as I had feeling file were in DSD format in my library

Guess which one play when I push it from MC 22 ?  the DSD one with filepath info not DLNA info !

So I can push DSD file when they are imported into library the way showed in line 1,  all FLAC file are in library as line 2 and they push nicely... extension of files is FLAC on the filename.

I can push DSD64 ST and DSD64 MCH, but I know DSD 128 or DSD256 are not working. Not sure about gapless

I am ready to pay after my trial for MC22 I will even pay a bit more to get MC on synology !... now looking for a remote... JRemote is not free ? really ? it should come as a package when you buy the big multiOS package.

Hope someone will make use of this.

Good work guys..

Thanks for reading