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Author Topic: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi  (Read 9721 times)

jmone

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Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« on: April 24, 2015, 06:13:25 pm »

Axiom has been developing a wireless speaker for some time and they have just released a "sneak peak"  The interesting thing is that they have decided not to use a SOC, but are using a raspberry pi.  I have no idea what SW they are using but I'm sure it will not be a strong as the current MC offering.

Thanks
Nathan
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 01:34:06 am »

JRiver Inside!
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2015, 05:06:02 am »

FYI - I've sent the following to their Lead Dev:

Quote
Andrew, nice preview of the Wireless Speaker and Congratulations for going with the Pi instead of a SOC.  This will give you a clear differentiation over the test as the flexibility will be unrivalled.  I'm not sure what SW you are using on the Pi and if it is an in-house build or some other SW but you may want to reach out to JRiver.  They have a Pi build of their Media Center SW and it is without doubt the most flexible and powerful high end audio renderer.  Key features that are out of the box are:
- decoding of all formats/bit depth/sample rates including DSD
- convolution filters
- integration with streaming servers (MC, DLNA etc)
- ability to push and pull using control points
- frequent updates & great support
- Modest price per device

They are also the SW provider for the desktop app behind Pono.

If you would like a contact point let me know and I'll put you in-touch with them.

Thanks
Nathan

The only gap I see from their feature set and MC's is support for Airplay.
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2015, 04:51:21 am »

FYI - Here is the response from Andrew at Axiom Audio:

Quote
Andrew: Re: Wireless Speaker & SW Platform
Hi Nathan,

Thanks for the kudos on using the Pi as the brains of the system! I have been playing with these for nearly 3 years now and I am still amazed at the applications people come up with every month. We are developing our own custom software platform for this system, mainly because of the way we are implementing multi-room. Audio performance and network reliability are given the greatest importance and to that end we have enlisted a developer for the software that has more experience in this area than most. I am a big fan of the JRiver software and their support of DLNA will allow seamless integration with our system.

Thanks,

Andrew
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2015, 04:52:03 am »

...and my follow-up Q:

Quote
Thanks Andrew, I've shared your feedback with the JRiver community. Can't wait to test it out, esp the Whole House sync component. Can you share what protocol you plan to use?
Nathan
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Hilton

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 06:21:21 am »

They are only 1 step ahead of me!  :P
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 06:25:58 am »

...and one behind as they are not using MC internally.... Mmmm.  I wonder if it could be flashed to a full MC instance!  Now there is a fun project :)
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Hilton

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 06:27:38 am »

Watching the video, the speaker looks ok and Im sure it sound good..... no offence to them, but I think I can do better in 2 months than they've done in 3 years.
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Hilton

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 06:35:49 am »

How does a "JRiver" speaker sound (haha) with a touch OLED display and 5 hours of battery with wifi, BT, Airplay, UPnP DLNA, Spotify, onboard HDD and 100W per channel?  oh and of course MC20!
Not very difficult to do now I've got my Pi brick sorted.

I have access to a high quality 100micron 3D printer for prototyping too.
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mwillems

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 08:23:24 am »

Not very difficult to do now I've got my Pi brick sorted.

Yeah, now all you have to do is all of that pesky speaker and amplifier design  :P

You've worked miracles with the Pi Brick, so I have faith in your ability to resolve tough issues, but the "analog" component is non-trivial, and there are some extra hurdles yet to cross.  

MC for Linux has no ability to take an input stream at this point.  So if you want to take advantage of JRiver's DSP for active correction (which is half the advantage of having a speaker embedded JRiver instance, in my opinion), the speakers would have to effectively be "wireless only." You could bypass the Pi entirely for wired audio input, but then you really have to throw a lot of engineering time at getting the speakers to sound great with no active correction, which is a non-trivial engineering challenge.

You'd also need to solve the sync issue between a pair of stereo speakers outside of the airplay context.  You could always have a master-slave wired setup, e.g. one pi for two speakers, but wired to both of them (which is how some manufacturer's deal with it), but it would be a little odd to have wireless only speakers that need to be wired to each other  ;)  (unless you go for the boombox form factor, which is what I recently did for a pi-project in my daughter's room)

In all seriousness though, if you do wind up prototyping JRiver powered speakers, you should work on finding a way to take advantage of JRiver's DSP stack to do active correction.  I'm consistently amazed at what I can do with cheap-o speaker components by throwing DSP at them  (like I described over in my measurement guide).  You can't fix timbre or the room, but you can fix or improve almost anything else.  At this point the only reason that Pi's are proliferating around my house like dandelions is because I can make a tiny .06 cubic foot speaker with a $12 paper cone sound better than some $150 speakers I've heard.  

Like I said, I have faith in you (and I'm sure you've built your share of speakers), but if you do go down this road and want a sounding board, I've built a lot of speakers (about a dozen from scratch, over two dozen counting major rebuilds) and would be happy to help out with a consult if I can.  

I've actually started trying to rig up MC on a pi as a standalone DSP processor (analogous to a mini-DSP), as that market is currently saturated with overpriced tech that underperforms, but the main thing holding me back is that MC Linux can't take an input stream (or at least I haven't figured out how to rig it up).  

MC for windows could do it, but embedded PC's aren't quite there yet (all the win 10 for IoT on the Pi2 fluff notwithstanding).  
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Hilton

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2015, 08:42:52 am »

From just a quick search...

100W DC-DC converter for the main power supply. 12v Lipo or Lifepo4 battery will power this no problem. Depending on the Amp module this might not even be needed.
http://www.dx.com/p/high-power-dc-4-5-30v-to-0-8-30v-12a-buck-converter-dc-car-power-supply-module-247469#.VUtpR0_qHXc

This is a 2 x 100W class-D power amp running off 12 to 39V.  A Class T Amp would be even better but much more expensive.
http://www.dx.com/p/2-x-100w-class-d-audio-amplifier-board-tda7498-black-202721#.VUteu0_qHXc

12v Lifepo4 Battery - 20-40aH - safer than Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer with the current draw you need for such a high powered amp.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/light-weiht-portable-12v-lifepo4-battery_1994939164.html

It would be a heavy beast for sure with a battery alone weighting 1 to 2Kilos depending on capacity. But then again even my little Sony wireless speaker weights a couple kilos.



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mwillems

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2015, 08:52:26 am »

If you choose your speaker components carefully you wouldn't need a 100W amp either, which would make your life easier.  

I run most of my pi-speakers off of a $20, 20-watt t-amp made by Lepai, and it's more than enough power if you get your sensitivities right.  100W only provides 7dB more volume than 20W.  20W with a speaker with a 93dB sensitivity is just as good as 100W with a speaker with an 86dB sensitivity.  You can reduce your power demands dramatically in other ways too (using a single full-range speaker instead of a passive two way, etc.).  
Figure out how much SPL/volume you need and then work backwards to the power outputs on the amp.  Many little speakers can't even take a 100W safely anyway.

A speaker with an 87dB sensitivity (which is on the low side of typical) can be driven to 100dB by a 20 watt amp, which is louder than most people would ever want in a home setting.
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Hilton

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2015, 09:22:15 am »

Quote
Yeah, now all you have to do is all of that pesky speaker and amplifier design

That's not as bad as it sounds. I've designed and built several speakers and subs over the years from scratch and built a 2ch 500W amp from scratch so I think with the software available for modelling and the driver choices available I could come up with something pretty quickly for a cabinet in 3D and then make it. I have all the tools and most of the experience to do it.

Besides I'd probably just use pre-built AMP modules anyway.

Quote
MC for Linux has no ability to take an input stream at this point.

Yeah I haven't looked at that yet, but the intention wasn't to have a wired speaker. Though with some time I'm sure I could work something out with Alsa or Pulse and maybe some discussion with you guys and Bob. Your all a pretty intelligent mob! (well mostly anyway) ;)

Quote
You'd also need to solve the sync issue between a pair of stereo speakers outside of the airplay context.
I hadn't intended on creating Nathans' and your dream of a pair of stereo wireless speakers, more a boombox but with a little less boom and a bit more slam. :)

There is the option of a multichannel wireless transmitter receiver combo though. Put all the smarts into one speaker for the JRiver DSP and then output multichannel with wireless or something like that.  Not a big market for that I would have thought, but doable.

This TI chip does 4 channel 16bit 44.1/48 over wifi from an I2C interface. What does the Pi have? An I2C interface.
http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/wireless_connectivity/wireless_audio/overview.page?paramCriteria=no




 
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mwillems

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2015, 09:26:43 am »

That's not as bad as it sounds. I've designed and built several speakers and subs over the years from scratch and built a 2ch 500W amp from scratch so I think with the software available for modelling and the driver choices available I could come up with something pretty quickly for a cabinet in 3D and then make it. I have all the tools and most of the experience to do it.

Besides I'd probably just use pre-built AMP modules anyway.

Yeah I haven't looked at that yet, but the intention wasn't to have a wired speaker. Though with some time I'm sure I could work something out with Alsa or Pulse and maybe some discussion with you guys and Bob. Your all a pretty intelligent mob! (well mostly anyway) ;)
I hadn't intended on creating Nathans' and your dream of a pair of stereo wireless speakers, more a boombox but with a little less boom and a bit more slam. :)

There is the option of a multichannel wireless transmitter receiver combo though. Put all the smarts into one speaker for the JRiver DSP and then output multichannel with wireless or something like that.  Not a big market for that I would have thought, but doable.

This TI chip does 4 channel 16bit 44.1/48 over wifi from an I2C interface. What does the Pi have? An I2C interface.
http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/wireless_connectivity/wireless_audio/overview.page?paramCriteria=no


I figured you were on the case  ;D 
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2015, 03:01:13 am »

Axiom are up to US$150K on their KickStarter campaign for their AxiomAir.  

I've asked the following on their forum
Quote
Been following this for awhile but I've been away for a month. Couple of Q before I consider dropping for a multi pack smile

1) I'd want to control this all from JRiver's Media Center, so:
- what protocol can I use to "push" to the speakers (DLNA / Airplay / Other)?
- is there any quality issue using DLNA (etc) to push media over the speakers pulling from the server
- can I config them (through the Axiom Air App) to appear as one or a group of speakers?
- if configured as a group how does multi room sync work, and what protocol/system do you use between to keep them in sync?

2) Networking Qs
- Wifi Hotspot : one issue if using the WiFi hotspot on Axiom Air is I presume both the speaker and the device then loses access to the Main House network so your media must be on either the device or the Axiom USB port.... or ?
- Will the Axiom Air auto pick Ethernet over Wifi without reconfiguration (eg if my Axiom Air mostly lives on Ethernet but I unplug it to do portable will it then grab my WiFi that I've previously configured then return to Ethernet when plugged back in)?

Thanks
Nathan

Edit - FYI - they have built their own SW to run on their speakers.....  Should have spoken with JR I think....
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2015, 08:55:40 pm »

This is the response and my followup Q

Quote
Hi Nathan,

For pushing audio to the AxiomAir you can use either AirPlay or uPnP/DLNA. If you have higher than CD resolution files uPnP/DLNA is the preferred method as the AirPlay standard does not really support highrez. You can group multiple AxiomAirs in any way you wish by using our web interface. Our system for sync is a proprietary protocol.

The hotspot is really only for use when you do not have access to your home WiFi network. When using the hotspot you can stream music files from a connected device, or from a USB drive. If your phone supports it, you can stream from the cloud using cellular data while connected to the WiFi hotspot. Ethernet is automatically given priority and the system will fall back to the WiFi connection when your LAN is disconnected.

Thanks,

Andrew

Quote
Thanks Andrew - Sounds good. Final couple of Q's:
- If I group the AxiomAirs will they then appear as one DLNA/UPnP device on the network and handle in sync playback between themselves?
- If I group the AxiomAirs will they then appear as one Airplay device on the network and handle in sync playback between themselves?
- Is there a Line Level or headphone out (so I can occasionally feed a PA system from one of the AA)
- I understand the Airplay quality limits, but do you support 24/192 bit over DLNA/UPnP ?

Thanks
Nathan

If the answer to the above is positive, I'm seriously thinking about dropping for a multi pack of these!  
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syndromeofadown

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2015, 07:03:10 pm »

Quote
If the answer to the above is positive, I'm seriously thinking about dropping for a multi pack of these!

There is only a week left to order. I purchased one.
Whenever I buy speakers I have a hard time choosing between Axiom and Paradigm.
Paradigm always wins but they don't have anything to compete with this.

I will be using mine with MC on a windows tablet.
I am about to be off the grid again so its a perfect setup for my new home.
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2015, 12:23:14 am »

I've ordered a two pack - do you want to refer me or vice versa?

Quote
For the next 10 days, if you refer a friend and they purchase an AxiomAir (or two!) you’ll receive a $50 gift card for anything in the Axiom store. Even better, your friend will receive a $20 gift card for anything in the Axiom Store as well!
.....
Just have your friend leave a message in the comments with your name after they purchase (or send an email to us at IanAndAmie@axiomaudio.com) and we’ll get your gift certificates ready!
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2015, 06:26:11 am »

mmmm Still a couple of months to go before they arrive but I'm thinking about cross flashing it with MC  8)
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2015, 03:18:51 pm »

Not long to go now.  The Dev at Axiom has been answering Q on their forum.  Here is one response to my Q on how they keep audio in sync on multiple devices:

Quote from: michelangelo
We tried NTP Multicast solutions, but they were not suitable for a consumer-grade scenarios (this solution is really dependent on the network it operates on).
So we are sending chunks (from 5 to 20ms) of PCM data via TCP and continously sync clients via NTP.

And yes, we'll release the code. More details about that soon..
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jmone

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2015, 01:13:47 am »

Looks like they will be running https://volumio.org/ on the Pi2 in these Speakers.

Mmmmm can't wait to try a MC cross flash  8)
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mwillems

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Re: Embedded Opportunity? Axiom Wireless Speaker is to use a Pi
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2015, 07:36:25 am »

I'm kind of surprised they're using volumio; it's network connectivity (DLNA etc.) is pretty spotty/limited, and it's basically just a midgrade web app wrapped around existing linux media database/player apps (like mpd).  Maybe they didn't realize the extent to which Volumio is just an aggregation of existing open source software with a web app dropped on top?

Given axiom is developing their own control app, and are redoing the entire app/web interface you'd think it would just be faster for them to start from scratch (rather than burning Volumio down and starting over). 

If they're going that way, I hope their contributions to the code base migrate back to mainline Volumio; as it is, it's a pretty crummy upnp renderer that get's "confused" very easily. 
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