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[glynor]

Now that an App development environment for AppleTV is finally announced... I think the real answer for Mac users who want a 10-foot, on their TV, environment for MC is really: porting JRemote to AppleTV.

Sure, Theater View would be cool, but you'll need to port the whole darn thing to OpenGL/Metal (probably via converting it to use something like Unity engine), and how many people out there in the world really have a Mac hooked up to the TV in their living room?

If you actually go through the trouble of building a HTPC, you probably mostly want to game with it, which means it is probably a Windows PC.  Sure, the Mac Mini is nice but... Again, how many of those people are there?  On the other side of the argument, though, AirPlay does make it easy to broadcast from a Laptop up to the screen.  I've often wished for a Mac version of Theater View for exactly that reason (though I just switch to my Windows VM and go).

I think porting JRemote to AppleTV is a much better target.  And probably easier to boot. Thoughts?

[mwillems]

I think this may be part of where they're headed with Pretty Face.  But I think the goal of pretty face is cross-platform porting (i.e. a universal interface on all platforms).  If that universal interface happens to look a lot like JRemote, all the better.

Related to your suggestion: Bluestacks can potentially provide a pretty good solution for mac users already.  I haven't tested bluestacks on a mac, but assuming it works like the windows version, Gizmo runs 100% perfectly with bluestacks, and JRemote almost runs on bluestacks (it loads but playback doesn't work quite right).  Obviously that leaves linux in the cold, but bluestacks could potentially already be a solution on the mac side (or could be with a little JRemote tweaking).

That said, given that Chrome now provides a framework to run android apps on any platform that runs Chrome, it seems like ARCwelder compatibility might be the path of least resistance, really.  Massaging the existing android app so that it works in an already cross-platform environment seems like a low-investment high-reward proposition.  Obviously then you're beholden to the whims of Google, but...

FWIW, though JRemote doesn't currently work at all with arcwelder.  Gizmo almost works with ARcwelder (loads but playback doesn't work correctly).  

On a related subject I hesitate to mention bluestacks because it won't run on Linux, but Gizmo currently works perfectly with bluestacks, and JRemote almost works with it (it loads but playback doesn't work correctly).  So for folks looking for a large screen interface on OSX, bluestacks will get you there if you're willing to use Gizmo, and it could

[glynor]

I was assuming that the primary reason to get a "big" interface would be to put the interface on a TV, so running it on a computer isn't really directly relevant. You may be right about "Pretty Face" but, again, that would only help people who actually connect a Mac to a TV, which has got to be a tiny percentage of users.  And, even if BlueStacks could work to solve this, it would still require a mouse interface (and probably keyboard) which is pretty much the opposite of the idea of Theater View.

Porting JRemote to tvOS would seem to be even simpler, as all of the code underneath should work already (assuming that Xamarin will support tvOS, which I assume they're furiously working on now).  You'd have to do some re-thinking on UI design, of course, but...

[mwillems]

And, even if BlueStacks could work to solve this, it would still require a mouse interface (and probably keyboard) which is pretty much the opposite of the idea of Theater View.

Bluestacks is a general purpose android emulator, and so has access to various android IR apps.  I'm pretty sure I read that someone's worked out an IR remote control solution for it, but I can't find the details right now.  I was mostly just throwing it out there as something for folks who wanted a potential short term solution (admittedly an imperfect one).

[blgentry]

I was assuming that the primary reason to get a "big" interface would be to put the interface on a TV, so running it on a computer isn't really directly relevant. You may be right about "Pretty Face" but, again, that would only help people who actually connect a Mac to a TV, which has got to be a tiny percentage of users. 

You've said this twice, about people not connecting Macs to TVs.  Aside from the gaming aspect, which I don't think is super applicable to a home theater environment, why do you say this?  I don't have much direct experience with this, so this really is an open question.  My gut feeling is that lots of people either have Macs connected in their home theaters, or really WANT to have them connected there.

My experience with JRemote is limited, but I was quite impressed.  How do you see JRemote for Apple TV (JRfATV) integrating with a system?  Will it be both remote control and end point?  I.E., would audio stream from the Mac running MC to the ATV?  What about video?

Personally, I'd like to have audio and video directly connected to the machine that outputs audio and video.  So I'd want an HTPC of some sort, Mac, or Linux, or maybe Windows, directly connected.  That way no network weirdness and no transcoding would happen.

I'm really not trying to shoot your idea down.  I'm trying to understand it in the context of my experience and my personal expectations.  ...and I have a feeling I'm going to learn something in the process, so that's good. 

Brian.

[mwillems]

You've said this twice, about people not connecting Macs to TVs.  Aside from the gaming aspect, which I don't think is super applicable to a home theater environment, why do you say this?  I don't have much direct experience with this, so this really is an open question.  My gut feeling is that lots of people either have Macs connected in their home theaters, or really WANT to have them connected there.

I had the same question actually, but I demurred because other than one friend, I don't really interact with anyone who owns a mac IRL (so my knowledge of mac user habits is lacking). My sense is that lots of people have computers in general hooked up to TVs, but then I'm on a forum where virtually everyone has a computer hooked up to a TV, so I assumed I was looking in the wrong end of the funnel  

There do seem to be lots of folks with minis on the forum, but they may just be a vocal minority.

FWIW, jremote (for android anyway) makes a pretty capable video player.  I've been using it on a single-board computer running android as a front-end on a spare tv and it works pretty well as an "end-point."  I keep hoping that JRemote will just become a universal cross-platform interface so I can use it as a linux front-end too.  I can see why it would tempting to get it on as many interfaces as possible.

[glynor]

My gut feeling is that lots of people either have Macs connected in their home theaters, or really WANT to have them connected there.

I strongly doubt this. I've never been to anyone's house, outside of a handful of nerds who work in IT departments, who have computers of any kind connected to their TVs. Almost no one I talk to about it has a HTPC connected to their TV (and I'm the guy at work that people talk to about stuff like that). I'm not saying that because it is only true of Macs. I think it is just true of computers.

I don't have polling data, but I do have some evidence: Microsoft's various Home Theater PC programs failed and have been discontinued. AMD tried very hard to push HTPCs a few years back (the Vivo-active marketing thing) and failed/discontinued it. Apple discontinued their own 10-foot UI years ago. According to Paul Thurrott (who has very good sources at Microsoft) one of the reasons they discontinued Media Center Edition was that they had telemetry that something like 99.9% of all users who ever launched Windows Media Center did so by accident, and immediately closed it (and this was among the something-like 0.001% of all Windows users who had actually launched Media Center).

I'm not saying no one does it, but I think getting MC onto a box like an AppleTV or a Roku is much, much, much more "mass audience" than convincing people to buy a Mac specifically for their TV and hook it up to the home theater system.

Again, nerds aside, but there's like 12 of us.

If there is a huge market of people who "want to" do this, then why have all of these products failed?

Now, I'm not saying MC doesn't need to play in the space. But I do think that the people from Plex have purchased the AppleTV Developer box and are furiously coding right this very second.  If JRiver wants to be serious about supporting people using MC as a video management solution, they need to have some way for people to get the content onto their TVs without requiring a wireless mouse and keyboard in the living room.  Even if MC itself doesn't require one (and Theater View does not), having the PC in the living room certainly DOES require a mouse and keyboard.

I have one.  But lots of people, even those in the market for MC, won't do it.

[glynor]

For the record:

Personally, I'd absolutely prefer to have Theater View for OSX.  If I could have that, my next HTPC would probably be a Mac Mini (it would be even better if Apple would go back to using good CPUs in the Minis, but that's another story for another time).

I do love having a HTPC, and I have NO intention of giving it up.

I'm more looking at it from a "bang for the buck" perspective.  But, I was interested in hearing other viewpoints. If a whole bunch of actual JRiver customers feel about it more like I do personally, then maybe it does make more sense to focus on the "big project".  But porting Theater View is a massive, likely multi-year, undertaking.  We're talking a huge amount of effort (Theater View is Direct3D, which is Microsoft only, so pretty much everything has to be thrown away and started from scratch).

I think porting JRemote to AppleTV, assuming Xamarin does support this, is probably a much more modest (as-in, could be done by one guy in a few months) project.

[gvanbrunt]

I agree that I think Pretty Face could (should?) be the replacement for theater view. At least eventually. If they design it with skinning and flexibility in mind it could eventually surpass what is available in Theater View currently.

[glynor]

Pretty Face would definitely need to be designed with very limited (remote-only-style) input devices in mind to accomplish this.  Would that limit its utility otherwise?

Just wondering if that is what they're targeting.  One of the big problems is that touch or mouse "designed" UIs are completely useless on a TV with a remote control in your hand.  Whereas a design that goes for that (like Theater View) is not ideal for using with touch or a mouse.  Theater View itself does "split the difference" fairly well, but... Well, we've all seen the threads complaining about how it isn't perfect for use case X or Y (or is generically "ugly").

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Though... It could be done. I don't know what the focus is going to be.

[blgentry]

That begs the question:  Is a GIANT view of JRemote useful and efficient with a remote in your hand?  I don't know because I haven't tried it.

Or are you suggesting some sort of hybrid interface with JRfATV?

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of just a tablet in my hand/lap navigating around music and movies and choosing what I want to see or hear.  The on screen (TV) display isn't really needed at all, except for maybe if you have other people watching what you are doing and offering suggestions.  "Oh, oh oh!  I want to see Batman!" ...as you scroll through the list of movies for example.  In that case, some sort of mirroring would probably work well.

I'm actually pretty excited at what Pretty Face might be.  I'm very unclear on what the design target it though:  10 foot interface?  Touch screen PC?  Tablet?  Simple UI with mouse and keyboard?   Several of these, but not all?

Brian.

[glynor]

Or are you suggesting some sort of hybrid interface with JRfATV?

Yes. The user interface would need to be re-done. But all of the underlying code could be re-used, since it is still iOS. In my mind, it would probably look and flow something like Theater View does now. Like a hybrid of that and how JRemote shows the content panes.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of just a tablet in my hand/lap navigating around music and movies and choosing what I want to see or hear.  The on screen (TV) display isn't really needed at all, except for maybe if you have other people watching what you are doing and offering suggestions.  "Oh, oh oh!  I want to see Batman!" ...as you scroll through the list of movies for example.  In that case, some sort of mirroring would probably work well.

I've tried it a lot (you can do it now with JRemote) and I really, really, really prefer Theater View with buttons on a remote.

The issue with a tablet is twofold:

* It isn't participatory.  In Theater View, we can discuss what we're going to watch as a group by just highlighting something. In JRemote, there is only one tablet that can see what is happening. Mirroring could fix this, of course, but mirroring has its own issues (you have to make fonts big enough to read across the room, and then they look weird on the tablet, and so on and so forth).

* Physical buttons win for many operations, especially Volume Control. I'm still somewhat skeptical about the new Siri remote thing, but it does look like they've done a decent "physical button + touchscreen" interface. It remains to be seen. I am interested to try it out.

I'm actually pretty excited at what Pretty Face might be.  I'm very unclear on what the design target it though:  10 foot interface?  Touch screen PC?  Tablet?  Simple UI with mouse and keyboard?   Several of these, but not all?

Yep.

[mwillems]

I've tried it a lot (you can do it now with JRemote) and I really, really, really prefer Theater View with buttons on a remote.

The issue with a tablet is twofold:

* It isn't participatory.  In Theater View, we can discuss what we're going to watch as a group by just highlighting something. In JRemote, there is only one tablet that can see what is happening. Mirroring could fix this, of course, but mirroring has its own issues (you have to make fonts big enough to read across the room, and then they look weird on the tablet, and so on and so forth).

I agree that lack of "participation" is one of the limitations of the tablet for control, but it's also one of the advantages.  For example, I love that when I have a room full of people over talking that I can discreetly put on music or make volume adjustments on my HTPC using my phone without everyone's head whipping around to see what I'm doing with the television    

I use both an IR remote and JRemote for control, but for different use cases.

* Physical buttons win for many operations, especially Volume Control. I'm still somewhat skeptical about the new Siri remote thing, but it does look like they've done a decent "physical button + touchscreen" interface. It remains to be seen. I am interested to try it out.

Having a physical button for volume is mandatory in my view, but most phones and tablets have physical volume buttons already.  Does JRemote for ios not support using those buttons? (EDIT: looks like not based on some older threads)  It's supported on the android version anyway, and they're all I use for volume control. That alone would be enough to keep me using the android version.

I'm actually pretty excited at what Pretty Face might be.  I'm very unclear on what the design target it though:  10 foot interface?  Touch screen PC?  Tablet?  Simple UI with mouse and keyboard?   Several of these, but not all?

I think the design target is a simplified, cross-platform, touch-friendly interface.  The 10-foot interface seems like maybe a secondary objective (it hasn't been discussed as much).

[glynor]

I agree that lack of "participation" is one of the limitations of the tablet for control, but it's also one of the advantages.  For example, I love that when I have a room full of people over talking that I can discreetly put on music or make volume adjustments on my HTPC using my phone without everyone's head whipping around to see what I'm doing with the television    

I do too, in exactly the same circumstances. It is fantastic for a "party DJ" setup. It is much less good, for me, for an everyday "pick what show to watch tonight" kind of setup.

I don't use an IR remote because gross. But my Logitech Smart Control works beautifully.

Does JRemote for ios not support using those buttons? (EDIT: looks like not based on some older threads)

No, and it NEVER will. Apps cannot modify the behavior of, nor directly access, the physical buttons on iOS. Full stop.

That is almost always a good thing (I've seen terrible things with Android apps), IMHO. But in any case, it won't change.

[gvanbrunt]

Pretty Face would definitely need to be designed with very limited (remote-only-style) input devices in mind to accomplish this.  Would that limit its utility otherwise?

Just wondering if that is what they're targeting.  One of the big problems is that touch or mouse "designed" UIs are completely useless on a TV with a remote control in your hand.  Whereas a design that goes for that (like Theater View) is not ideal for using with touch or a mouse.  Theater View itself does "split the difference" fairly well, but... Well, we've all seen the threads complaining about how it isn't perfect for use case X or Y (or is generically "ugly").

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Though... It could be done. I don't know what the focus is going to be.

The skin would target the device. That is how it is done on some other platforms I've seen. You can shape it according to the audience i.e. hand helds, 10 foot interface, simple , or complex, etc

The primary reason so many don't like Theater View is the lack of customization. The same will be true of Pretty Face. Creating a static interface or one with limited customization will only please a few people. Letting people skin it they way they want would increase the audience substantially. Right now there are already JRemote, Gizmo, Theater View, Standard View, eos, Web interface etc. Now lets create Pretty Face so there is another option? Seems to me they need to create something that stops they cycle of one off interfaces... Pretty Face could do that. If not it will only be yet another interface for jriver, with many more to come.

[glynor]

The skin would target the device. That is how it is done on some other platforms I've seen. You can shape it according to the audience i.e. hand helds, 10 foot interface, simple , or complex, etc

Aren't there aspects of UI navigation and design that don't translate well to simply "skinning"?  I worry that it can't be done well (for the same reasons that Windows 8 failed). That you'll inevitably hold back the UI for one or the other use-case, because it has to be a general-purpose system. In any case, that still doesn't help if there's no way to get the darn thing onto your TV.

If you assume:

1. That the user isn't going to spend $600-1k to buy a full general purpose HTPC.
2. That the user isn't going to buy a single-purpose device from JRiver (like the Id we already have).
3. And you assume they are an Apple user (I put the thing in this board for a reason)

How do you get this UI up on the TV screen?  I don't think any of those first two assumptions are out of the norm. I could be wrong, but I'm skeptical.

[flight16]

An AppleTV/tvOS version of JRemote would be an absolute dream.  I won't repeat everything glynor has said, because his analysis and opinions reflect all of mine.  He seems to have a very good idea of the typical user.

I have a unused Mac laptop, Kodi on RPi, and a gaming PC.  All are hooked up or could be hooked up to my TV.  I have been building computers for 20 years.  Yet, I still am crazy about the idea of JRemote on AppleTV.

tl;dr: HTPC = an expensive, complex time-drain.  AppleTV = a cheap[er] solution that just works.

I am now using Kodi on Raspberry Pi because it is so simple, and I like it a lot (almost zero config).  I also have a Windows Steam box hooked up for gaming.  But you know what?  I'm not going to install MC on it. It would only complicate things.  I would have to mess with start-up options.  My PC doesn't do HDMI control out of the box which makes turning on the TV and amp a hassle.  The PC's 30 watt idle is a lot in a country where electricity is expensive.  I have to mess with IR remotes and drivers.  If I build a separate mini htpc I will need to buy another OS, keep it up and running with security updates, etc.  It costs time and money. (You can argue any of these points, but I've been dealing with computers long enough to know there's always SOMETHING that doesn't work right and you have to troubleshoot or replace).

Background: I'm your typical family, married, kids, and day job. I come home from work tired and have little time in the evenings.  That's why I especially value things that will literally just work.  No forum hunting.  No fiddling with settings.  JRemote is this.  I want it on my living room TV for the family to use.

That's why I am dying to see a MC client on AppleTV.  I would gladly pay more money to JRiver for it.

Edit: So I just saw Intel Compute Sticks on the JRiver store.  I still think tvOS JRemote would be awesome, but now I'm interested in the Compute Sticks, too.  $150 is about the max I'd want to spend on this, but it doesn't appear to come with wired ethernet or an IR remote, which will be a deal-breaker.  I want the family to be able to pick up a remote from the end table and navigate the HTPC.  No tablet or smartphone remotes.  And $325 with shipping out of the US is a bit over my budget.

[BartMan01]

You've said this twice, about people not connecting Macs to TVs.  Aside from the gaming aspect, which I don't think is super applicable to a home theater environment, why do you say this?  I don't have much direct experience with this, so this really is an open question.  My gut feeling is that lots of people either have Macs connected in their home theaters, or really WANT to have them connected there.

Almost no one in the Apple ecosystem connects a Mac to a TV, they use an AppleTV for that. If you need to connect a Mac to a TV it is done through the AppleTV.

Getting JRemote on the AppleTV would be a huge win in my house. The worst part about using MC downstairs is dealing with the laptop I have there for Theater View.

[glynor]

Unfortunately the reviews for those compute sticks were pretty dismal, particularly Wifi performance.

Check AnandTech...

[blgentry]

I'm somewhat excited at the prospect of a JRemote style app running on an AppleTV.

My concern is with network transport.  If the files don't live directly on the AppleTV (and they won't), then they necessarily have to come over the network from an MC server.  If this can be seamless, every single time, awesome.  If there are ever any hiccups, it would be a non-starter for *me* personally.  That's why I'm willing to have a "real" computer hooked up to a TV:  Reliability.  I need high reliability; otherwise it ruins the entertainment experience, which is what we all want these for! 

Actually, there's a second reason as well:  Native format of audio and/or video.  I'm unfamiliar with how the new AppleTV will work, but I think minimal transcoding is important.  That is, if you can send the same audio and video format to the TV and/or AVR without changing format, resolution, compression, etc, you should have a better end product.  As long as the AppleTV can do this as well as a real computer, awesome.  If not, I'd be skeptical.  For video this is more complicated as it's a bit of an open question of whether TVs do better transcoding to their *native* internal resolution, or if an external device does a better job of converting from whatever resolution the video is at to the native resolution of the display.  It would be pretty much required for the AppleTV to have fairly granular control over output resolution so you could try to optimize picture quality, as I've just indicated above.

I hope this makes sense.

Brian.

[glynor]

That's how JRemote works now.

It would be exactly the same.  Audio files can play native, at least for many common formats.  Video has to transcode.

[glynor]

A few other points, since I have more time.

Transcoding the video is changing the compression format and container, not (necessarily) the resolution.  As I mentioned before, JRemote already does this, so you can try it out.  On a local LAN, you should certainly be able to stream 1080p, unless your computer is old and slow. It has nothing to do with the power of the AppleTV, though, as this would happen server-side.

Yes, from a playback quality perspective, it would certainly be better to have an actual HTPC. That's what I'd continue to do. But quality on the AppleTV, like streaming quality on JRemote now, would be (IMHO) plenty good enough for most people. Gapless audio is the biggest problem.

I'm talking about resource allocation and reach, though. If you're going to dedicate very limited JRiver resources to a project, does it make more sense to build this, or that.

[Fred1]

Almost no one in the Apple ecosystem connects a Mac to a TV, they use an AppleTV for that. If you need to connect a Mac to a TV it is done through the AppleTV.

How can you postulate such a thing?
Since i am using Macs (and that's a long time), i connect them to my TVs.
What do you think the HDMI output is for on the newer MacMinis?

Using EyeTV as a TV tuner and recorder with a pretty GUI is a no problem affair.
And i know quite a number of Mac users that do this.

Nevertheless i would love JRemote for AppleTV.

[mwillems]

Transcoding the video is changing the compression format and container, not (necessarily) the resolution.  As I mentioned before, JRemote already does this, so you can try it out.  On a local LAN, you should certainly be able to stream 1080p, unless your computer is old and slow.

Just to add some context, this is true if and only if you mean sending exactly one transcoded-on-the-fly 1080p stream.  Most modern computers and faster older computers should be able to send one transcoded-on-the-fly 1080p stream at a time.  If you mean sending more than one such stream simultaneously (like if you want to have two hypothetical JRemote appletv boxes running at the same time, or one appletv box and someone watching on an ipad with JRemote in the next room, etc) you would need to have a fairly muscular computer for your server.  

Most modern laptop i5 CPUs (-U SKUs), like the ones in many Macs, would probably not be able to cut the mustard for multiple 1080p transcode streams. I know for a fact that the Haswell i5 laptop CPUs couldn't do it (tested a few different SKUs), and the broadwell chips don't bench that much better.  Based on the bench, the i5 CPU in the newest MacBook Pros might be able to do two streams at once, but I've seen CPUs with similar benchmarks that couldn't do two streams smoothly.

So most likely unless you have an i7 MacBook or a desktop i5- or i7-based computer* somewhere as the server, you'd basically be stuck at one AppleTV at any given time (unless you ran multiple servers).  How that affects the overall calculus I can't say, but it's not just a question of loss of quality, you also need enough grunt to feed all your boxes.

*desktop i5s often perform between one and a half times as well and twice as well same-generation laptop i5s

[glynor]

My Ivy Bridge Core i7 server can handle two simultaneous 1080p streams currently, and that's without QuickSync support.

But, yes, agreed.  If you have a lot of content that needs to be transcoded, and want to feed multiple devices, you're much better off pre-transcoding offline, or building a (currently Windows-based) HTPC so you can directly access the files.

For anyone who didn't see it, both Plex and VLC (the latter surprised me a bit) already announced coming AppleTV products.

[TheShoe]

Now that an App development environment for AppleTV is finally announced... I think the real answer for Mac users who want a 10-foot, on their TV, environment for MC is really: porting JRemote to AppleTV.

Sure, Theater View would be cool, but you'll need to port the whole darn thing to OpenGL/Metal (probably via converting it to use something like Unity engine), and how many people out there in the world really have a Mac hooked up to the TV in their living room?

If you actually go through the trouble of building a HTPC, you probably mostly want to game with it, which means it is probably a Windows PC.  Sure, the Mac Mini is nice but... Again, how many of those people are there?  On the other side of the argument, though, AirPlay does make it easy to broadcast from a Laptop up to the screen.  I've often wished for a Mac version of Theater View for exactly that reason (though I just switch to my Windows VM and go).

I think porting JRemote to AppleTV is a much better target.  And probably easier to boot. Thoughts?

really?  the sole reason for building an HTPC is to play movies (and music, show photos, and home videos).  games - not at all.

the reason i have abandoned JRiver in favor of Kodi is because JRiver has no theater view for MAC and subtitles don't work for PGS subs.  And don't get me started on it's inability to specify DVD Order for tv shows.  everyone else can do it; why can't JRiver?

anyway - i had high hopes; even spent cash on previous versions for windows, but i refuse to run windows any longer.

anyway - the sole reason to build a quality HTPC is that I want to be able to enjoy the highest quality audio and video through my gear - a hugh plasma display and a 7.1 audio setup.  right now, Kodi is all that can properly support it on a Mac (Plex on Windows is good but crashes far too often).

and by the way - look at the kodi and plex forums.  there are TONS of Mac Mini users who use it only as an HTPC.  it's an awesome steal for the price and when you want to use it for other things, it's there for you, no compromises.

[glynor]

the sole reason for building an HTPC is to play movies (and music, show photos, and home videos).

Your sole reason maybe. That's an absurd statement.

I won't bother to address the other inaccuracies in your reply.