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[eam81969]

With the woeful inadequacy of my current PC, I'm looking into building a "JRiver Only HTPC" and wanted to ask the guru's here for ideas.  Primarily, the system needs to play blu-ray movies (1080p) over HDMI to my receiver and let it send it to my TV.  I need to know recommended hardware and what areas to spend more money on than others.  I guess I'm worried about dumping out cash, then realizing too late that I bought the wrong thing.   Anyway, I welcome comments and suggestions on everything.  Thanks!

Current Gear:
 - Pioneer VSX-80
 - Panasonic 61" plasma (i forget the model no. Does 1080p)
 - HTPC (TBD - this is what I need help with)

Requirements:
 - Play blu-ray movies that I've ripped/recorded with JRiver and AnyDVD for decryption.
 - And, yes, 5.1 sound.
 - I want to build it, and use it regularly.  (Not muck with it all the time.)

Questions:
 - Is JRiver 32 or 64 bit?  Are there plans to change this?
 - For what functions does it use RAM?  How much is suggested?
 - Which graphics cards behave well for 1080p video playback? Are some manufacturers better than others? Most hi-end cards are made for gaming.  Will that help with video?  (I don't want to spend a  fortune here unless necessary.)
 - Is there significant benefit from a SSD? (I know their faster than SATA drives. But, will I see a benefit from the speed with JRiver?)
 - Does the CPU matter? (Which are important:  vendor, cores, clock speed, L2 and L3 caches)
 - Has anyone used NAS for video with good results?  Is it even feasible?

Finally, I know that faster is always better.  However, I want to spend my money on the right things, not all things.

Thanks again!

[hsnopi]

do you really need a separate video card? are you planning on ripping on this machine too?

Would an onboard hdmi suffice for streaming?

[JimH]

MC is 32 bit and will run fine on 64 bit.  We don't have plans to change that anytime soon.

[mwillems]

- For what functions does it use RAM?  How much is suggested?

If the machine is only used for JRiver 4GB is plenty, as a 32-bit program JRiver can only use 2GB, but you want some room for the OS to avoid swapping.

- Which graphics cards behave well for 1080p video playback? Are some manufacturers better than others? Most hi-end cards are made for gaming.  Will that help with video?  (I don't want to spend a  fortune here unless necessary.)

Nicer graphics cards can improve video picture quality, but integrated graphics work too and can still look pretty good.  If I were you I would build the HTPC without a graphics card and see how you like it, it's easy to add a graphics card later if you decide the picture quality isn't up to snuff.

- Is there significant benefit from a SSD? (I know their faster than SATA drives. But, will I see a benefit from the speed with JRiver?)

Yes and yes.  You want the JRiver database (not the media) on the fastest drive available.  This speeds up browsing views and makes the user experience much snappier.  You don't need a big SSD as you only need to put the OS and JRiver's files and database on it.  All the actual movies and audio can be on slower drives.

If it were a choice between an SSD and a video card, I would pick the SSD (personally).

- Does the CPU matter? (Which are important:  vendor, cores, clock speed, L2 and L3 caches)

It can matter if you need to transcode on the fly; otherwise fairly modest CPUs will work just fine for most applications.  One thing to note is that nicer CPUs come with nicer integrated graphics (which can potentially be used to improve picture quality) and intel's integrated graphics are great and getting better.  If you grabbed any modern intel core i5 you'd likely get more processing power than you'd be likely to need and a high quality integrated graphics chip that would let you do a little picture tweaking without a discrete video card.  

- Has anyone used NAS for video with good results?  Is it even feasible?

Many folks here do exactly that including me.  The key to rock stable streaming is wired connections.  Once wireless gets involved it can work great and it can work not so great especially with high bandwidth video (e.g. Blu Ray quality video).  I do successfully stream Blu Ray quality video from my NAS to one wireless-connected PC in my house, but a) it's AC 5G wireless and b) if anything else is sucking up wi-fi bandwidth it doesn't work so well.  So if you plan to go the NAS route wire everything you can, and if you can't wire everything, at least wire the NAS itself and invest in a fast wireless router.  

[BryanC]

Literally anything will work, so minimize price and footprint. Since you are playing 1080p content on a 1080p screen, then the benefit of madVR is diminished so you should be happy enough using RO Standard, which works on just about anything.

Pentium G3220 is a great deal for a HTPC and has decent enough integrated graphics to handle anything you throw at it on RO Standard.
You only really need 4GB of RAM and I wouldn't invest in more since the world will move to DDR4 soon.
Discrete GPU is not necessary for your usage scenario. If you are upsampling content then yes, a discrete card will be necessary for HQ upsampling madVR. I would recommend NVidia GPUs for an HTPC if you go that route, the GTX960 is a good HTPC card due to low-power draw and price/performance. AMD cards require about 2x more power so they aren't great for mini-itx or htpc builds, although they offer more bang/$ for high-end gaming.
SSD is nice if you are hibernating the machine for fast startups but otherwise the active program is almost always loaded completely into RAM. If you need to buy a drive anyways, then by all means get a small SSD.
DO NOT SKIMP on the PSU. This is the best advice I can offer you. Get a gold or platinum rated single-rail PSU, Seasonics are good. You don't want to deal with a bad PSU or coil whine, etc.
For HTPC I would go with a small form factor mini-itx case and motherboard that can still fit an ATX PSU and a full size GPU if you decide to go that route in the future. If you don't care about size or don't have nimble fingers then go mATX.
Quiet cooling is important for an HTPC. Spending $1000 on high-end components is pointless if the overall experience is diminished because you have to run a leafblower in the case to keep the darn thing cool. Cheaper, low-wattage components are actually a GOOD thing for an HTPC.

Honestly, you can build something for less than $300 easily that will do everything you need. Of course if you want to utilize the machine as a home server, etc, etc, then the requirements will change.

We are at the point now that entry-level components are overkill for most people.

[BryanC]

Here is a partpicker for a nice little HTPC with potential for upgradeability:

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/Vn2nxr

[eam81969]

To: mwillems & BryanC

Thank you and THANK YOU!  Not just for replying, but for giving me direct and detailed answers.  I also appreciate the tip on quiet cooling - I overlooked that.
I'm also going to try to find a "pizza box" style case because it will fit well in my furniture.

I dig the "leaf-blower" reference!  Cheers.

[hsnopi]

if I use windows do I need to make it more powerful? I know windows supposedly uses a lot of ram.

[hsnopi]

any, i usually use ASUS but that seems a little overkill for this. ASRock seems to have good reviews. any I should stay away from?

[RoderickGI]

I have just a slightly different view from the "go absolute minimum on everything" position. Particularly if considering an Intel G3220 CPU and its iGPU, as listed on that PC parts picker page.

My signature shows what I am using, and it is more than enough, except for video, particularly as I upscale everything to 1920x1080p 60 Hz. I use RO STD as I can't run ROHQ reliably. Mostly that is due to watching Interlaced video, which needs to be de-interlaced, which can be very demanding on the system. I could run ROHQ if none of my video was interlaced, but a lot of my TV recordings are 1440x1080i, so I have to stick with RO STD.

My Intel i5-3570K processor has a HD4000 iGPU, which runs at a Graphics Base Frequency of 650 MHz, and a Graphics Max Dynamic Frequency  of 1.15 GHz.
In comparison the Intel G3220 doesn't specify which iGPU it runs, but it runs at a Graphics Base Frequency of 350 MHz, and a Graphics Max Dynamic Frequency  1.1 GHz. It can use up to 1.7GB of system memory.

So, it looks to me that to match my iGPU's adequate but less than stellar performance, a G3220 would be working hard. I couldn't find which iGPU it had in it with a quick search. If it had a HD5000 (or equivalent with the new numbering system) or above, then it would probably be good. If a HD3000 or less, I would not buy that processor. The price is excellent though.

Also, on memory, I would use the rough rule of 2GB for Windows, 2GB for MC, and 2GB of system memory for video using the iGPU. So I would go with 8GB minimum.

If I was building today (I built mine mid-2013) I would still go for an Intel processor with the best iGPU available in it. But I would still consider an upgrade to a discrete graphics card in the future, and allow for that. The nVidia GTX 960 would be my current choice.

PS: Other than my comments here, I agree with all the above.

[thezone]

Literally anything will work, so minimize price and footprint. Since you are playing 1080p content on a 1080p screen, then the benefit of madVR is diminished so you should be happy enough using RO Standard, which works on just about anything.

Is this true? I have a fairly well specc'd HTPC and have set up ROHQ with custom madvr and lavfilter settings but all I do is play 1080p bd iso's to a 1080p panel using video clock are you saying this setting is overkill and I only need to run RO Standard?

Also to the OP I would suggest get a Pioneer BD Drive not an LG. I seem to get more reliable rips with Pioneer.

[mwillems]

Is this true? I have a fairly well specc'd HTPC and have set up ROHQ with custom madvr and lavfilter settings but all I do is play 1080p bd iso's to a 1080p panel using video clock are you saying this setting is overkill and I only need to run RO Standard?

Also to the OP I would suggest get a Pioneer BD Drive not an LG. I seem to get more reliable rips with Pioneer.

Playing 1080p content on a 1080p screen is one of the least demanding scenarios for MadVR; that doesn't mean that ROHQ can't produce some moderate improvement over RO Standard (chroma is stored at a lower resolution even in 1080p sources, so some upscaling still needs to be done), but the differences between ROS and ROHQ in that use case will be subtle and the GPU load will be comparatively low. 

If that's literally your only use case, you could almost certainly use ROHQ with integrated graphics on fairly high settings and get good performance.  For example, on non-interlaced content, my two year old Haswell i5's igpu does jinc 3-tap upscaling just fine (even from 720p to 1080p).

So it's not that there's no difference; it's that the difference is small and specialized hardware may not be necessary to achieve that small difference.

[mattkhan]

Playing 1080p content on a 1080p screen is one of the least demanding scenarios for MadVR; that doesn't mean that ROHQ can't produce some moderate improvement over RO Standard (chroma is stored at a lower resolution even in 1080p sources, so some upscaling still needs to be done), but the differences between ROS and ROHQ in that use case will be subtle and the GPU load will be comparatively low. 

IME the major use case for madvr when doing 1080p->1080p is the 3D LUT

[hsnopi]

Would using this box as a NAS as well make a valid case for a separate gpu?

[mojave]

Playing 1080p content on a 1080p screen is one of the least demanding scenarios for MadVR; that doesn't mean that ROHQ can't produce some moderate improvement over RO Standard (chroma is stored at a lower resolution even in 1080p sources, so some upscaling still needs to be done), but the differences between ROS and ROHQ in that use case will be subtle and the GPU load will be comparatively low.

I max out my GTX970 or GTX960 when playing 1080p content on a 1080p screen. By max out I don't mean the GPU is running at 100%, but that processing can take so long that frames are dropped. Also almost all concert Blu-rays are interlaced (1080i) and this really takes a toll on the GPU with CUVID hardware deinterlacing.

I just checked my GTX970 with 1080i and the GPU is at around 40% utilization with the temps staying at 40 C. This means the fans on my MSI GTX970 Gaming graphics aren't even turning since they don't start spinning until GPU temps reach 60 C. I love the MSI cards.

Improvements aren't as noticable on a smaller screen, but with a projector one can see differences with the following:

• Artifact Removal - using reduce banding artifacts with high strength
• Image Enhancements - Sharpen Edges, Crispen Edges, Thin Edges, Enhance Detail, LumaSharpen, AdaptiveSharpen
• Chroma Upscaling - super-xbr or NNEDI3, activate anti-ringing filter, activate SuperRes filter
• Rendering - Smooth Motion on when needed (I prefer 60 Hz with smooth motion over 23.97 Hz), Error diffusion - Option 2 vs Ordered Dithering

I also use a 3DLut in madVR. Next week I'll get to play with madVR's automatic lens memory control of JVC projectors.

I agree with RoderickGI and use the MSI GTX960 Gaming 4G in any of my HTPC builds. MadVR has recently had a huge performance increase with its black bar detection that allows the GTX960 to currently perform on 2.39 1080p content the same as my older, but more powerful GTX970.

[hsnopi]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157497

would this handle 1080p systems?

[eam81969]

So, it seems that JRiver has a plethora of optional improvements that can tax a GPU.  The question is whether or not you need or want these improvements.  From what I've read so far, it seems I do not need most of them.  99% of my movies are Blu-ray disks playing through a full 1080p setup.  I'll start with RO standard, then tweak upward as far as my GPU is comfortable with.  I'll post my build details after its completed.

[Boldlygo]

I just built a new media server for JR. I used to use a Lenovo laptop, but have now switched to a neat mini-PC made by Zotac. It's their RI531-U barebone system which comes with an i3-5010U 2.1GHz processor, Intel HD graphics 5500, HDMI/DP out, WiFiac, BT4.0, 2x Data 6.0Gps.
I put in an 8G ram stick (can hold 16), a Samsung 850 EVO 500G mSata SSD for the OS (Win7Pro), JR and all my high-def 2-ch audio music.
I then installed 2 Seagate hybrid 2.5" 1Tb drives and set them up as a RAID1 for all my other CDs. I also use a QNAP NAS to store all my multi-ch music and all my video files that I have ripped which MAKEMKV.
This little mini-PC fits really nice beside my Marantz pre/pro on my rack, has a red led power light when it's off which turns blue when on. It's very fast (and quiet!) and the sound out of USB to my Wyred4Sound DAC is great and the videos & multi-ch music out HDMI to the Marantz are too.

[eam81969]

A month later and the build is complete.  This hardware should be very capable of 1080p video.

i5-6500 6M Skylake Quad-Core 3.2 GHz LGA 1151 with Intel HD Graphics 530
ASRock H170M Pro4 LGA 1151 Intel H170 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
HGST Deskstar NAS H3IKNAS40003272SN (0S03664) 4TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" High-Performance Hard Drive
8GB (2 x 4GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 2133 (PC4 17000)
EVGA 220-GS-0550-V1 80 PLUS GOLD 550 W
Pioneer Blu-Ray/DVD Drive
Windows 10
HP Infrared USB reciever

It works only moderately well.  There are times when the video pauses briefly (.25 sec) and sometimes the image seems blurrier than expected.  Hopefully,  I can resolve these issues by tuning JRiver.

[BryanC]

It works only moderately well.  There are times when the video pauses briefly (.25 sec) and sometimes the image seems blurrier than expected.  Hopefully,  I can resolve these issues by tuning JRiver.

What are your video settings? VideoClock? RO Standard or HQ?

[eam81969]

The video looks much better now.  This was done by turning on ROHQ, and setting my HTPC GPU to 24Hz.  I was already using VideoClock and Smooth Motion.  Its either resolved, or so slight that I can't tell its not perfect.  I think there's a micro adjust setting where I can "pad" my 23.976.  Not sure if I'll see the difference or not.

Also, I was wondering about ReClock.  The JRiver GUI looks better in 60p, and I need 24p for most of my movies.  I recently read that the latest JRiver versions don't benefit from ReClock, because VideoClock and Smooth Motion make it obsolete.  Is this true?  Are there any benefits from adding Reclock or not?  Thanks.

[mojave]

The video looks much better now.  This was done by turning on ROHQ, and setting my HTPC GPU to 24Hz.  I was already using VideoClock and Smooth Motion.  Its either resolved, or so slight that I can't tell its not perfect.  I think there's a micro adjust setting where I can "pad" my 23.976.  Not sure if I'll see the difference or not.

Also, I was wondering about ReClock.  The JRiver GUI looks better in 60p, and I need 24p for most of my movies.  I recently read that the latest JRiver versions don't benefit from ReClock, because VideoClock and Smooth Motion make it obsolete.  Is this true?  Are there any benefits from adding Reclock or not?  Thanks.

VideoClock and Reclock do the same thing so you don't need Reclock.

You can actually get by with Smooth Motion only but need to always run at 60p. I use VideoClock and Smooth Motion and watch all content at 60p. This provides the best JRiver GUI and motion looks better to me at 60p than 24p.

Here is madshi's explanation of smooth motion:

Introducing the new Smooth Motion frame rate changer (FRC) with the following main features / benefits:

(1) Can convert any source frame rate to any display refresh rate, while maintaining smooth motion.
(2) Endless playback without frame drops/repeats (if your PC is fast enough) without needing VideoClock.

There are disadvantages, too, of course:

(1) Slightly higher GPU usage (not too much) with default settings.
(2) Some sharpness loss (almost invisible with 23-25fps -> 60Hz conversion).

23-25fps -> 60Hz: minimal sharpness loss, nearly invisible
24fps -> 24Hz: visible sharpness loss
(check "enable motion frame rate conversion only if there would be motion judder without it" so it isn't used all the time)
60fps -> 24Hz: very noticeable sharpness loss

Basically the higher the refresh rate, the better. And the lower the source framerate, the better.

Technically the FRC algorithm simulates a display with infinite refresh rate. Which means that every video frame is displayed exactly when the timestamps ask for it. Consequently the motion smoothness depends on proper timestamps. If the timestamps (or audio clock) contain jitter, the playback will contain jitter, too. So even if VideoClock might not be needed to avoid frame drops/repeats, anymore, when using madVR's new FRC algorithm, you might still want to use VideoClock
because it provides a stable and reliable audio clock with very low jitter, and it supports WSAPI exclusive mode, too.

To my best knowledge madVR is now the only way to playback Blu-Ray/DVD movies without 3:2 pulldown judder on displays which don't support 23.976Hz playback properly. I don't think any hardware Blu-Ray player can do that, or even any of the expensive video processors. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

One last hint: There's a new "trade quality for performance" option in the madVR settings which affects the quality of the FRC frame blending. By default frame blending is done in gamma corrected light, which is fast, but not mathematically correct. If your GPU is fast enough, it's highly recommended that you disable the "trade quality" option for highest image quality. There are no negative side effects to blending frames in linear light - except for higher GPU usage, of course.

P.S: Just to avoid confusion: madVR's smooth motion FRC does *NOT* modify audio in any way. Playback speed is not affected at all. The only thing that changes is that motion looks much smoother, if the display refresh rate isn't an even multiple of the source framerate.

[millst]

Buy yourself a hardware Blu-ray player and save your time/money. You can go to Best Buy and pick one for the cost of AnyDVD by itself. The chipsets are very mature and Blu-ray quality is already very high. There is little to nothing to be gained from MadVR. Perhaps, if you were an Anime fanatic with an extensive DVD collection...

-tm