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[jleerigby]

This is a reply to Nila's post in the .238 bug thread.  I'm posting here so I don't get 'done' by Jim for starting a discussion in the bug thread!

The back button is great but the lack of a 'home' button or right click options to navigate means that it can be a lot slower to get to some items.

Giving us back the right click option to navigate would also make 'back' a lot more useful as we could get to any item from any item and so 'back' would be a lot more useful. Right now there is no way of going directly from one screen to the next.

I think that's a bit harsh.  There's not that many levels.  I don't see how it can be a LOT slower to get around.  I think Matt's done his best to simplify navigation without making major changes that would create even more debate before 9.1 is released.

There's all sorts of ways that the AW navigation can be improved but they have to draw the line somewhere and I personally think it's looking really good now.  

Maybe adding the ability to view the results of a Drag & Drop to CD Burner (like playlists) would be a good addition but that's about all that's needed IMHO.

[jleerigby]

BTW - Bringing back the right click to allow easier navigation (i.e. less clicking) between items is a false economy as the right click itself in one click, then you have another and another before you've selected what you want.  

You could just as easily left click on the back button a couple of times and get there just the same.  I think this way is more intuitive for new users (and experienced for that matter).

[MachineHead]

simplify navigation without making major changes

Hmm. You mean to tell me that in the few weeks that 9.1 has been out that there are no major changes? I must be getting slow...but the change from 9.0 to 9.1 is major.

And, for the record, 9.0 was barely out of its diapers when they dumped this version on the world. So what does it take for something around here to not be a major change?

[jleerigby]

Yes there have been major changes. 9.1 has seen major after major after major change and all for the better as this is now an awesome product.  But, like I said, it's a beta and they have to release it sometime so they can get on with the next project that we'll all benefit from.

[MachineHead]

I really do not see how an 'Action Window' has made the base product any better. Truth be told, MC needs more work on a few other things for some real power. Linking to files and such from a new navigation window is not earth shattering news.

How about support for AAC? How about the option of adding apev2 tags to mp3's? How about just getting the darn burn window to show up without having to go through several steps in the first place?

There could, and should, be more to MC then Action Window madness.

[clout]

Truth be told, MC needs more work on a few other things for some real power

MC has improved dratically since v9.0, but I agree that other areas other than cosmetic layout need to be improved.

I bought MC based on JRiver claim that it was a complete all in one Media Centre. Whilst the database facilility is great, the program to me is still only an audio jukebox with limited features for other media.

One of the main features I bought it for was the xfading and DSP functions, which they don't mention only work with audio files. My main use is with video clips, and because MC can't handle these well, I am having to still use Winamp to run these with MC just being used for it's database facility.

MC has the potential to be a great program, but let's remember there is more to Media than audio.

[Ingo]

to make it short: I'm not happy with how this action window works now.

the longer version:

• it might be good for new users to find everything... but how do they know that clicking on a icon opens up a folder of more possibiblites?
  
• it's great to have playing now there.
  
• it might even be usefull to have playlists there, but here it starts, having a lot playlists (nearly all of them are imported junk) it's quite unusable. a loooooong list of icons, all looking the same. make them a list- or treeview and it will be usable.
  
• the worst thing: there's no direct way to go where I usually want to go.
  I usually need "playing now", "details view", "image" and maybe "file playlists".  this might be different for other people, but I think everyone has his own set of pages he uses a lot and would be happy to access them with _one_ click.
  looking at nila's mock up screen shot (which looks a lot better than what we currently have), right of navigation icons there's enough room for a few user configurabel icons that would allow one-click-access (TM ;-) ) to let's say up to 4 pages.
  

Ingo

[jleerigby]

Ingo said:

the worst thing: there's no direct way to go where I usually want to go. I usually need "playing now", "details view", "image" and maybe "file playlists".  

And just how difficult is it exactly to navigate to these in the current AW?  Not difficult at all.  Just a couple of clicks away all of them, 3 click at the very most which is what you would have had before with the right click menu. Only this is more intuitive - many people don't use right click.

I'm not saying it's perfect and I know they will want to improve it in the next release but it's now easy to get to where you want to be.  

Clout said:

MC has improved dratically since v9.0, but I agree that other areas other than cosmetic layout need to be improved.

MachineHead said:

Truth be told, MC needs more work on a few other things for some real power. Linking to files and such from a new navigation window is not earth shattering news.

Glad you acknowledge that a lot has improved in 9.1.  And in such a short space of time too.  Maybe if we give them the support they need to get 9.1 released and looking good instead of whinging about an extra click here and there they will release it, attract some new customers, make some money, and get on with 9.2 or 10 which will take them nearer to where they want to be.

Machinehead said:

How about support for AAC? How about the option of adding apev2 tags to mp3's?

This might be what YOU would find useful but personally I find the functionality offered by the AW to be far more useful - like the ability to drag and drop into PN and playlists, auto resizing, etc.

How about just getting the ** burn window to show up without having to go through several steps in the first place?

I just select the files I want and press burn on the tool bar.  

[aussie1]

A good UI is critical and MC 9.1 has made great strides over 9.0. I applaud this. I consider the UI part of the base product, and, in that sense, I think the base product is better.

There are so many software products out there that are packed with features but difficult to use. The computer as the center of home entertainment is still only for technically savvy users.

The industry needs to spend more time making it easier for consumers to assemble all of the technical pieces together rather than chasing the latest and greatest file format.

The only way 95% of the newbies can get multi-zone, netremote, tv, and all of these fancy things to work is to peruse the forums, ask lots of questions, and apply lots of trial and error. I would never have known many of these things unless I was a regular reader. And other than those who are addicted to the MC drug, how many people have the time to do this.

So, adding the panes, adding the AW, and considering a UI without the tree are necessary steps.

Of course, competitors will continue to innovate in the funcionality area too. MC will never be finished because there will always be someone else out there pushing the envelope. Such is the software business.

It will be a challenge to be an all-in-one Media Center that is top-notch in all areas while other companies are focused on only a specific segment such as TV recording or photo albums.

But MC will be sufficient to meet the needs of most users. The value of integrating it under one easy to use interface with a sophisticated database will outwiegh the added cool things I can do with a different DVD player or my ATI video recording software.

[Ingo]

And just how difficult is it exactly to navigate to these in the current AW?  Not difficult at all.  Just a couple of clicks away all of them, 3 click at the very most which is what you would have had before with the right click menu. Only this is more intuitive - many people don't use right click.

I'm not saying it's difficult. It might even be better for new users. At least it reveals more power to them.
But for power users it's just 2 clicks and a lot of mouse movement to much to go where they want to.
The old cycling buttons at least didn't need any mouse movements.
And: I'm not talking about (re)adding a right-click menu... this would still need a lot of mouse movements... all I want is a one-click-access to the stuff I need most. And I really switched the old properties window around quite a lot. And it needs a huge lot more mouse usage now. This just makes MC a lot less powerfull for power users.

I'm not saying it's perfect and I know they will want to improve it in the next release but it's now easy to get to where you want to be.  

I know... and I'm just trying to help... and steer in in my direction ;-) , which I hope would help a lot other people as well.

Ingo

[MachineHead]

Maybe if we give them the support they need to get 9.1 released and looking good instead of whinging about an extra click here and there they will release it

Umm, there isn't an issue about support. I still think MC is above and beyond anything out there. Have thought that since v7. And I wouldn't exactly call someone elses concerns whining.

This might be what YOU would find useful but personally I find the functionality offered by the AW to be far more useful - like the ability to drag and drop into PN and playlists, auto resizing, etc.

I'd venture a guess that all the iPod junkies here would really like to see MC have improved handling in this area (AAC). If MC is going to advanced, why not have it support advanced codecs? And in case you don't remember, MC did do drag and drop in 9.0. It was called the Drop Target.

I just select the files I want and press burn on the tool bar.

And once again showing the limitation of the AW. At least with the drop target of 9.0 you could just click that after assigning it as the location and get into the burn interface. As it stands now you can click the nice little icon in the AW all day and it's just gonna ignore you. This needs to be linked to that interface so a person doesn't need to use the toolbar button. This is not very intuitive.

[zevele10]

Maybe adding the ability to view the results of a Drag & Drop to CD Burner (like playlists) would be a good addition .

=-=-=-=
Let me know when this is added ,i may install MC

[nila]

I think that's a bit harsh.  There's not that many levels.  I don't see how it can be a LOT slower to get around.  I think Matt's done his best to simplify navigation without making major changes that would create even more debate before 9.1 is released.

I wouldn't call it harsh, it's simply a comment and not a put down in the slightest, I've never said anything spiteful or harsh (to my knowledge) about the team or JRiver.
Nothing I suggested was a huge change. Matt's done a great job and I've said on MANY occassions in the forum that he usually takes any idea we come up with and makes it one step better/easier.

Nothing I suggested was a big change and in fact almost ALL of it has been implemented in the AW at some point over it's development - my idea simply combined parts from several different builds.


BIG PIC: http://www.phazeclothing.com/temp/AW-big.jpg

• The 'pin' idea is basically just putting the AW into the mode it is in now (does not change automatically) - unpinning it puts it back into the mode it was in the last build (changes automatically)
  
  There is nothing new there - JRiver came up with both modes and made them both work great - the pin would just be a way to toggle between them - its straight out of MS Outlook and so would be familiar to new users and as you can see in the build thread - gkerber as well as some others likes static - some others including me liked auto but just need static at times (ie when tagging) - pin would please all parties (permenantly changing, never changing, changing sometimes).
  
  
  
• Navigation buttons - Home was in the last build, back is in this build - both were implemented by JRiver - this would just be combining them both to make it suit everyones way of working. The 'Forward' button is new but would basically just be the same as the back button but in the oposite direction.
  
  Again nothing dramatically new there. Also - I dont agree that new users like or find it easier clicking through nested menu's to get to items - I think for them one click access to things is just as important and these icons/ideas (back/home/previous) are straight out of IE and so would be extremely easy for them to grasp and understand.
  
  
  
• Direct access via a right click menu does not make it more complicated as this menu would only appear when you click on the 'spot' and so would not negatively effect anyone - the normal menu would be no more complicated but it would mean you could go directly from say 'File Properties' to 'CD Burner' and then just use the Back/Forward navigation buttons to bounce backwards and forwards between the two screens giving even more power to the 'back' button that JRiver just introduced.
  
  Again - this menu was in previous builds and so is nothing new or requiring big changes.
  
  
  The 'navigation' controls were put at the bottom to prevent the top toolbar from getting cluttered and making it seem more complex to users. Also - the AW window seems to (at least on my screen) usually have 2 or 3 cm of spare space underneath it and so this would not be taking up any extra space - it would simply be putting some free space to good use.
  
  
  
  
  I did not look at the AW as a way to simply gain three button click access to everywhere instead of having three sub-level right button menu access. I thought the idea behind it was to increase ease of use and reduce the amount of clicking required and try to, as best as possible, provide instant (one click) access to things.
  
  Ingo's idea of providing a mini shortcuts toobar to the right of the 'navigation controls' that users could drag items onto (or right click and chose shortcuts like with other toolbars) would be something new but would also then be the ultimate achievement of letting users configure the AW to have one button access to all the screens they wanted or used. Again - as he pointed out, everyone has different uses for the AW and so letting users chose their own shortcuts makes perfect sense.
  
  
  
  The AW window mimics a 'micro web (in this case - tools) browser' in it's behavior and so the navigation controls would mimic those implemented on a browser and so would be intuitive to new users and power users alike. They are also tried and tested ways of controlling a web (tools) browser that work well and are simple to use. The 'right click menu' would mimic the 'favourites' from a web browser providing menu access to any page users wanted directly and the 'toolbar' suggestion of Ingo would mimic the 'Links' toobar also found on web browsers to give users one button click access to pages (screens) they used a lot.
  With this extent of navigation control - JRiver would then be able to as they wanted add infinite more pages/items to the AW without worrying about complicating it as users could navigate it easily and quickly and customise access to the screens/items they wanted.
  
  

  
  There's all sorts of ways that the AW navigation can be improved but they have to draw the line somewhere

  - This would suggest that you too think that it could be improved a lot.
  
  I know they have to draw the line somewhere which is why I did not suggest anything new or any radical changes - I think they have done a great job with it.
  All I did was suggest some small changes and mixes of features that JRiver has themselves previously already introduced and came up with an idea of how they might be combined to make the AW as powerful and user friendly as possible.
  
  
  
  I also agree with Ingo's comment about the 'playlist' pane as all I have in it is a LARGE list of icons with half missing text making it of no useable use to me. It also doesn't allow me to select multiple playlists to delete (something I cannot do in the tree either) and so I have no way to reduce this huge list of playlists.
  At the very least it should follow the heirarchy of the playlist tree so that to get to items inside of a group, we need to double click on this group name to then see the items inside of it.

[jleerigby]

This would suggest that you too think that it could be improved a lot.

Agreed.  And don't get me wrong, I like your ideas a lot.  I just get the impression that despite what you say these would be fairly big changes right now.  Otherwise I think they would have done more with the AW - like SlikViks suggestion last week sounded really good to me but didn't get implemented.  Then Jim/Matt posted the whiteboard pic that suggested a major overhaul which was subsequently scrapped as a 9.1 change (rightly in my opinion).  Despite loads of suggestions the changes we have seen lately are fairly small but are an improvement non-the-less.  So I get the impression that they are looking for a quick win to finish 9.1 off and IMO the most recent changes, though small are very welcome.

[nila]

Glad to hear you like them.


The BIG GUI changes mentioned suggested that v10 might be in for a BIG overhaul and that is why v9.1 needs to be made as solid and 'finished' as possible before release - it's going to be the final stopping point for people who aren't into the totally new GUI and therefore will still be a major selling item for MC.

At the point where the new GUI is started - the AW on MC in it's current form is going to be totally left and no changes are going to be done afterwards (as with v9 - if u want changes you need to go to v9.1 - once it was done that was it, no more changes).

For anyone not wanting the new GUI it would be nice if the AW was finished and done to a manner where it was easy and quick and intuitive to use - not where it was 'useable but could be a lot better'.

v10 is also going to be a new version and therefore obviously going to cost for the upgrade - I'd hate to have to pay for $40 just to get a finished and easy to use AW - as I've said before - I'd like to be paying for new versions to get new features - not to get upgrades or bug fixes.

I could be wrong, and if I am sorry, but I cant see how they could be 'that big' of a task to implement - all the code for it is already written pretty much and would just have to be combined from previous builds and put together in a new build. Combing it all might take a bit of work but thats about it.

Anyway - it was just an idea to see what people thought - for me personally - combined with Ingo's idea of a little 'favourites' type toolbar - it would leave the AW in an extremely easy to navigate manner that I'd be more than happy to live with.
The time and energy could then be moved to other aspects of the AW other than navigation to finish it off (ie the point Ingo made about playlists being usesless here as large icons with truncated text)

[Pink Waters]

i installed this new build but the action window is the old one except for no home button... and where is that darn back button!?

[nila]

Tommy - thats what I thought at first - it took me a good half hour of solidly playing with it to work out what was happening.

I hadn't used the AW in ages and wanted to really give it a go and see if I could get used to it and like it how it was (thats when I came up with that idea for the AW design).


Click the spot where the old home icon was - the icon is just missing which makes it confusing - if you click that spot though it'll work.

At first it'll seem like it's the same but then you'll realise it's not going to 'home' any more but to whatever screen you were last on (this will often just be 'home' anyway)