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[blgentry]

I'm helping a friend set up a handful of audio zones in his new house.  I'm fairly certain we are going to use a 5.1 or 7.1 channel USB DAC to send audio out of MC (which will run on an i5 PC running windows 10).  He will operate the system primarily through JRemote, but might also use theater view; it's hard to say just yet.

Our goals include the following:

1.  Simple.  This should be easy to figure out for the non-technical.
2.  Playing up to 2 sources in different zones.  Probably never 3 sources at the same time, but 2 for sure.
3.  This one is unusual:  He wants to mirror whatever plays in the living room into the kitchen also.  The living room will primarily be 5.1 sources like music videos, movies, etc.
4.  Minimal cost.  This is an almost zero budget project.  He's going to buy MC and a USB DAC.  He already has 2 receivers, both of which are 2 zone.  We are hoping to use what he has and purchase what little he might need.

The real questions come up in this project with source selection.  Because JRemote doesn't do zone linking, he's kinda stuck.  My first idea was to use a hardware switch like this one:

http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8232

That makes it really simple:  Two sources, 4 outputs.  On, off, source, and volume for each output.

The problem comes with #3 above; how to mirror that output. ...and what if he decides he wants the living room audio to go everywhere?  It sort of implies that I need 3 inputs for each zone.  I'm certain I can do this with his receivers.

The big questions then become, how do you remotely command the receivers different zones to change inputs.  Certainly they have IR codes for making (for example) Zone 2 switch to Tape1 input.  You'd want to do this from the same ipad running JRemote probably.

Are there IR command apps that will let you do things like make a matrix of buttons that do things like change sources and things like that?  I can imagine a little grid with 4 zones of output, with 3 sources for each input (12 buttons).  Just press the right button and it plays the desired source in the zone you want.  I did some research on IR control apps, but I didn't learn much.  There are a TON of choices.

Thanks for any advice.

Brian.

[mwillems]

I'm sure you've already thought of this, but have you considered implementing all this in MC zones without using zonelink?  Because one DAC will be driving all the zones, you have unique flexibility: you can output in two or more physical zones with only one JRiver "logical" zone, and you can address different physical zones multiple times in different "logical" zones.  
So instead of having a 12 way switch or something, you could just make a JRiver zone for each playback permutation. So you could have seven zones:

Living Room
Kitchen
Bedroom
Living Room and Kitchen
Living Room and Bedroom
Kitchen and Bedroom
Whole House

It would be easy to control as whoever was controlling it in JRemote could just select the appropriate zone and everything would be clearly labelled.  It sounds like (based on his use case) you could even skip one or two permutations making it even easier. Best of all, it's "free" (for the cost of a JRiver license).

To be extra clear, this doesn't involve zone link at all and sync would be perfect. If you need some technical explanation, let me know, but it's just a basic channel routing issue using DSP studio.

[blgentry]

I'm sure you've already thought of this, but have you considered implementing all this in MC zones without using zonelink?

Actually I had not thought of that at all!  That's very clever actually.  Just use some PEQ routing to copy LR to more than 2 channels:  Copy it to 4 or even 6 or 8 channels depending upon which "virtual zone" you are defining.  That makes a lot of sense.

However, I'm not sure how friendly this will be for everyday use.  As an example, if something is playing on the Patio and someone inside says, "hey, play that in the kitchen too.", then what's the procedure?  I'm pretty sure the answer involves somehow rebuilding the current playlist in the relevant "joined zone", stopping playback in the current zone, and starting playback in the new zone which includes the patio and kitchen.

I'm not trying to be difficult.  I swear.  I'm just familiar with what happens when you give average users the ability to do something.  They immediately think of a bunch of other stuff they want to do.  In this case, I think my example is a pretty reasonable and normal request.

I guess I need to interview my buddy some more.  I think I should also be researching IR control apps and see if what I think he wants is possible and/or how much it costs.

Thanks again.  I HONESTLY appreciate the input. 

Brian.

[mwillems]

However, I'm not sure how friendly this will be for everyday use.  As an example, if something is playing on the Patio and someone inside says, "hey, play that in the kitchen too.", then what's the procedure?  I'm pretty sure the answer involves somehow rebuilding the current playlist in the relevant "joined zone", stopping playback in the current zone, and starting playback in the new zone which includes the patio and kitchen.

This is a limitation of the system, but perhaps not as big of one as you're imagining.  The stopping and starting issue is potentially resolvable through zoneswitch, which allows playback in one zone to stop playback in another.  So for example, each zone containing the kitchen zone could automatically stop playback in any zone containing the kitchen but the selected one, etc.  Even if that didn't work, you can make the multi-room zones take exclusive control of the sound device, which would have the effect of stopping playback whenever new playback is started, etc.  So in either case, in a context switch all that would be required is starting playback in the new expanded zone. 

How much of a problem that represents depends very much on his listening habits.  For my part, 99% of my listening is album listening.  So if I want to change locations, it's just a matter of selecting the correct zone and starting the album at the track I'm listening to.  It could get much less convenient if he's in the habit of building playlists on the fly and not saving them, etc., but I'm not sure how practical that is when using JRemote for control in any case.

But any method used for switching will have some limitations; this method allows for all electronic control, in one place, for free.  At some point JRemote may come to support on the fly zone-linking in which case you'd have close to a 100% solution.

[blgentry]

But any method used for switching will have some limitations; this method allows for all electronic control, in one place, for free

This is true.  I'll give it some more thought and see how it fits in.

I think I'd be less "stuck" if he didn't want the living room and kitchen to be playing the same thing all the time.  This is weird because the living room will be HDMI out from the computer, while the kitchen will be ... unknown.  I guess probably fed from one of the U7 outputs.  This means a link across two different types of sound output devices, so there will probably be a link timing issue.  ...and if it drifts, it will be noticeable because the kitchen and living room are very close to each other.

Which actually brings up another switching issue:  He would like living room audio from TV to be available in the other speaker locations in the house.  The more we get into this, the more complex it becomes.  I guess at some point, he has to choose features or money.

What's that old saying?  Fast, Cheap, or Good:  Choose two. 

Brian.

[mojave]

The real questions come up in this project with source selection.  Because JRemote doesn't do zone linking, he's kinda stuck.

That is why I recommended the Eos app instead in the other thread. It plus an Amazon Fire tablet cost $55 and with separate Zones setup in JRiver, handles all your issues.

However, I'm not sure how friendly this will be for everyday use.  As an example, if something is playing on the Patio and someone inside says, "hey, play that in the kitchen too.", then what's the procedure?  I'm pretty sure the answer involves somehow rebuilding the current playlist in the relevant "joined zone", stopping playback in the current zone, and starting playback in the new zone which includes the patio and kitchen.

In Eos, you just press the Zone button, Click the Link button, and then check the Kitchen Zone. It will instantly start playing what is in the Patio Zone with no stopping of any playback or restarting. It just starts playback in sync with the Kitchen Zone.

What doesn't work well is if you start mixing Zones with different outputs, like the HDMI Zone with the USB DAC Zones.

Can you tell us what receivers he has available?

[blgentry]

That is why I recommended the Eos app instead in the other thread. It plus an Amazon Fire tablet cost $55 and with separate Zones setup in JRiver, handles all your issues.

That you did.   He already has an ipad and has purchased JRemote... but if he has to throw away $10 (jremote purchase) in order to get better functionality.... Hmmm...  I will have him play with EOS the demo on his Android phone and see how it works.  Oh wait.  You can't actually *do* anything with EOS until you buy it.   Well... I'll at least have him walk through the menus and see what it *can* do once it's purchased. 

Is that Fire tablet any good?  I ask because I've read that a lot of Android tablets are rather low powered compared to IOS devices.  The Ipad 4 is just a screamingly wonderful performer with JRemote.  I have very little tablet experience.  So my question really comes from a lack of exposure to what's out there.

What doesn't work well is if you start mixing Zones with different outputs, like the HDMI Zone with the USB DAC Zones.

Which he is probably going to want to do.  Darn it.

Can you tell us what receivers he has available?

I've done the research on this already and found that one of his receivers, a Denon 1707 has 2 zones.  His other receiver, a Denon 487 only has it's one primary set of outputs and that's it; no zone 2.  So he's probably going to have to purchase something else.  It would be wonderful if he could afford a "matrix style amp" with 4 to 6 stereo outputs and 4 (or so) inputs.  But again, we're working with a beer budget, so I'm not sure what's going to happen.

Thanks,

Brian.

[blgentry]

Ok, I just downloaded the EOS demo and played with it again (it's been over a year since I tried it last).

I'm pretty impressed!  I could live with this as my only remote I think.  Have any of you guys tried the Amazon Fire tablet with EOS?  Or just used the Fire at all?  I'm interested in how "snappy" or sluggish it might be on an app like this.  Part of the appeal of JRemote on IOS is that it's so smooth and such a nice presentation.  Just trying to compare the two a little.

If it works decently, I think my buddy might use EOS as a second remote, or even as just the "zone linker".

Brian.

[blgentry]

That is why I recommended the Eos app instead in the other thread. It plus an Amazon Fire tablet cost $55 and with separate Zones setup in JRiver, handles all your issues.

I wanted you to know that reading this, and then playing with the EOS demo got me so interested that I bought the app.  I'm pretty impressed with it!  It has it's quirks.  I managed to make it lock up Media Center pretty hard once, by doing a bit too much zone linking and unlinking.

But it's largely a GREAT remote.  The screen with all of the zones is really useful and pretty well thought out.  I really like the ability to edit playing now in a fairly intuitive and easy way.  It probably goes without saying, but this thing is a HUGE improvement over Gizmo.  Gizmo is really nice for a free app.  But EOS is very much worth the $5 for such a large improvement in the interface.

I haven't really played with JRemote enough to know everything it can do.  I've got maybe 10 to 15 minutes of hands on experience with JRemote.  But I'm liking EOS.  I'd really like to see it on something like a 9" tablet.  So far I've only used it on my rather small phone.

Thanks Mojave for pointing me in the right direction.  Twice. 

Brian.