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[gkerber]

I don't claim to know the Action Window purpose, I'm not part of the development team.  I'm providing my thoughts as to what I think the purpose should be.  The Action Window is new and still rough and still in the requirements stage, I know that, and now is the time to voice these thoughts before it's too late.

Most of the Actions it offers access to, are all easily run from other places, so the actions offer nothing new, just another way to run them, with more mouse clicks than before.

It does have value as a display area. It would be nice if there were screen space to display all of the items at the same time, but screen space is limited, so compromises must be made.

A useful goal for any new feature should be to provide extra functionality, while not eliminating any existing functionality or making existing functionality harder to use on a day to day basis.  That's a tough goal, as I've learned, we all use MC differently (that it can be used differently is a strength of MC).


So far, the Action Window has provided to me a view of the Playing Now, I like that.  All the other views it offers have little value to me (note that I say for me, not everyone).  I'd like the image view, but only if it shows the image for the currently playing now track, it doesn't.

The properties view is way too narrow to be of value to me.

Burn Cd eludes me.  I select tracks in the track area and click Burn Cd and it says no files selected.

Anything in Tools eludes me.  I select anything in Tools and I get a large MC icon in the Action Window area ??

I select Handheld and I see some text that says "Nero Fast Burning Plug In"  ??

What is Playlists for?  It brings up a dialog for Path?  What is that for?  Are these supposed to be the same playlists in the tree?

What are these things supposed to do, even if they are not working yet, what are they supposed to do?

If the Action Window is set for undocked, and out of sight, and I select some tracks in the track area and click a toolbar Burn CD button, up pops the Action Window with a picture of a stack of cd's and the only text being how many tracks I selected and the total time.  So I kill that window and can burn a cd.

Moments later I select some tracks and click the Properties button on the toolbar, do I get an undocked properties?  No, I get the same Action Window with the picture of the stackof CD's, no properties.  Then I must start clicking to get the Properties display.  Multiple clicks to get what should be one click and what used to be one click.

So far, the Action Window is more of an annoyance than a help for the way I use MC.  The only new thing it offers me is Playing Now, and to use that, makes using Properties way harder, so I keep the Action Window as undocked, out of my way.

I can easily live with the Action Window configured to be undocked and set to Properties.  I would very much appreciate it if I could use MC this way without the Action Window switching from Properties to other things.

I know MC can't please everyone at all times.  Thanks for listening.

Some will agree with me, others won't.  That is perfectly okay and the purpose of discussion.  If you disagree, tell me why, don't attack me.  

[sraymond]

Anything in Tools eludes me.  I select anything in Tools and I get a large MC icon in the Action Window area ??

The Action Window seems mostly to be a "drop box" for sending selected and dragged items to various destinations.  This is actually quite efficient!  But I balk at the broken model because some of the "Actions" are *not* destinations - such as Properties.  But maybe that's the only one.

Drag and drop is a nice addition, I think.

Scott-

[nila]

For me personally - I hate having to click back to properties every time I want to use it. As such the action window is always going to just stay as a properties window for me.
I use properties all the time and dont fancy the extra clicking/navigating to get back from properties to whichever window I was in.

As such - the properties window is staying as a properties window for me but I'm going to call it an action window.

The one real good use this could have for me that I would use it for is giving me some way to tag using list types when not in the media library - a single plane display here so that we could set single list type fields easily with a GUI. I'd love that and use it quite a bit.

The biggest killer of the action pane for me is the fact that properties is mixed in with it - I use properties all the time and dont want to have to change out of it, into it, out of it, etc.

IF properties was remoted from the action pane and put as a seperate pane below the action pane that could be opened and closed individually then it'd totally change that for me. On the left we'd have three items:

• The tree
  
• Action Window
  
• Properties
  action window and properties could both be minimised out of view seperately.
  
  It wouldn't effect anyone negatively as if they dont want the extra window they simply leave it minimised (leave the properties window in the action pane as well for those who want it there)
  
  I could then edit properties quickly and easily and use the action pane without it effecting my properties.
  
  For me this would be the ideal situation. There's just too many tools grouped into one window for me - too much bouncing around. Its not the way I like to work.
  
  
  I would use the action window when burning a CD IF I could see the list of files in the list, otherwise to me it has no advantage over just right click, send to, burner.
  
  
  This should be an interesting thread, lets hear all your uses and views

[jimpmc]

For many of us, it has proved to be an extremely useful addition in that it allows 2 views of "lists" at once.  Namely, I now can build/organize the playing now and playlists much more effectively by being able to see the contents of them along side with the entire media library.  Before the action window, you had to switch views to get the details about either.  I find this much more interactive, and it has inspired me to start using playlists again.  

I have read your many posts, and they all seem pretty negative about the action window.  It's not that much different (user interface wise) than the properties, etc. which had been there for a while...it just adds some more functionality.  

Perhaps making the action window sizeable vertically with the tree might be useful.  Also, if the properties are too narrow, then why not make the entire left part wider since you have that control?

-J

[Doof]

The properties view is way too narrow to be of value to me.

What would be really nice here, is if the Action Window could not only autosize vertically, but also be manually sized vertically and horizontally and remember those sizes for each view. Would that be a good compromise?

Burn Cd eludes me.  I select tracks in the track area and click Burn Cd and it says no files selected.

It's been stated that this needs and will receive work.  think the direction it may be heading in is similar to that of the Playing Now view, which would be handy.

Anything in Tools eludes me.  I select anything in Tools and I get a large MC icon in the Action Window area ??

If you remember that this is also the replacement for the Drop Target, you may understand this a bit better. Files you drop onto the Tool you selected will send that file to that tool.

I select Handheld and I see some text that says "Nero Fast Burning Plug In"  ??

I'm assuming this is intended to be the same as the CD Burning view. Not sure why the Nero thing is showing up for you, though.

What is Playlists for?  It brings up a dialog for Path?  What is that for?  Are these supposed to be the same playlists in the tree?

For me, this brings up a list of playlists. When you choose one of the playlists, it is displayed the same way Playing Now is, allowing you to add files to a playlist from Media Library and put it where you want it in that playlist.

There's another playlist view in File Properties that shows you what playlists a file belongs to and allows you to check a box to add files to a playlist.

If the Action Window is set for undocked, and out of sight, and I select some tracks in the track area and click a toolbar Burn CD button, up pops the Action Window with a picture of a stack of cd's and the only text being how many tracks I selected and the total time.  So I kill that window and can burn a cd.

One of the quirks that needs to be ironed out, I'd say.

Moments later I select some tracks and click the Properties button on the toolbar, do I get an undocked properties?  No, I get the same Action Window with the picture of the stackof CD's, no properties.  Then I must start clicking to get the Properties display.  Multiple clicks to get what should be one click and what used to be one click.

The toolbar button for Properties has now been turned into a toolbar button for Action Window. Once you think along those terms, it's pretty clear why it does what you describe. Personally, I agree with you that there needs to still be a seperate toolbar button that takes you straight to File Properties.

So far, the Action Window is more of an annoyance than a help for the way I use MC.  The only new thing it offers me is Playing Now, and to use that, makes using Properties way harder, so I keep the Action Window as undocked, out of my way.

This would be where that warning about "If half-finished features bother you, don't download this build" come in.

[gkerber]

For many of us, it has proved to be an extremely useful addition in that it allows 2 views of "lists" at once.  Namely, I now can build/organize the playing now and playlists much more effectively by being able to see the contents of them along side with the entire media library.

I agree, and have stated, that having playing now visible along with the tracks frame is great.

Perhaps making the action window sizeable vertically with the tree might be useful.  Also, if the properties are too narrow, then why not make the entire left part wider since you have that control?

Yes, that can be done, and everytime I want to do something a little different, I always have re-arrange my screen for the current task, again more clicking and moving stuff around to get things done.

And what about others that use MC at my house?  Everytime anyone starts MC, it always looks different.  MC is already difficult enough (for non-regular users) to figure out what is where without having it look different everytime they see it.

[gkerber]

The Action Window seems mostly to be a "drop box" for sending selected and dragged items to various destinations.  This is actually quite efficient!  But I balk at the broken model because some of the "Actions" are *not* destinations - such as Properties.  But maybe that's the only one.

Drag and drop is a nice addition, I think.

Scott-

You mean I'm supposed to drag tracks to that MC icon?  Am I the only one who had no clue about that?  Was it obvious to everyone?  Oh well, I guess it was not intuitive to me since I'm not a drag and drop - icon - kind of user.

[gkerber]

For me personally - I hate having to click back to properties every time I want to use it. As such the action window is always going to just stay as a properties window for me.
I use properties all the time and dont fancy the extra clicking/navigating to get back from properties to whichever window I was in.

Me too.

The biggest killer of the action pane for me is the fact that properties is mixed in with it - I use properties all the time and dont want to have to change out of it, into it, out of it, etc.

Me too

There's just too many tools grouped into one window for me - too much bouncing around. Its not the way I like to work.

Me too.

[Doof]

You mean I'm supposed to drag tracks to that MC icon?  Am I the only one who had no clue about that?  Was it obvious to everyone?

Well, it was pretty much stated right when the Action Window first appeared that they were moving the Drop Target there...

[gkerber]

What would be really nice here, is if the Action Window could not only autosize vertically, but also be manually sized vertically and horizontally and remember those sizes for each view. Would that be a good compromise?

And would it intrude into the track area?  Not sure that would be even possible within windows.  But anyway, It's mostly the bouncing around, things changing without my consent, too much mouse clicking to get the things done that I do, than it did before.

If you remember that this is also the replacement for the Drop Target, you may understand this a bit better. Files you drop onto the Tool you selected will send that file to that tool.

Amazing.  I would have never guess I'm supposed to drag things to an icon in the Action Window.  Anyway, is this easier or more intuitive than the old way?  As long as the old way still works, I have no opinion on whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.

The toolbar button for Properties has now been turned into a toolbar button for Action Window. Once you think along those terms, it's pretty clear why it does what you describe. Personally, I agree with you that there needs to still be a seperate toolbar button that takes you straight to File Properties.

This is a BAD thing.  Removing existing functionality, forcing more and more mouse clicks to get the same thing done.

This would be where that warning about "If half-finished features bother you, don't download this build" come in.

I understand what you are saying, but it really doesn't apply to this situation.  First off, how do we know what is finished and what is unfinished?  If something is finished and it's awful, it bothers me.  If unfinished, then all our thoughts and discussion may help finish it better.

No, I'm not bothered by beta's, I know what the meaning of beta is.  I also know from experience that MC evolves quite a bit from an early beta as work and discussion progresses.  This is discussion.

[gkerber]

Well, it was pretty much stated right when the Action Window first appeared that they were moving the Drop Target there...

Well then I missed that, and I never understood Drop Target in the first place.

Us UNIX guys need a little more training to understand gui's....

[sraymond]

For what little it's worth...  mixing "properties" with "actions" is not a consistent model.  I know Matt said that this is the way it will be, but it makes it hard to describe the area as a "Drop Zone".

I think some of us (me included!) get wrapped up in what works best for each of us in our own instance.  [I had to laugh when Matt wrote in another thread that he liked Hairstyle just the way it was.  I'd sure hope so!]  I won't get on my soapbox, but I will say that intuitive is an important consideration!  If gkerber didn't get it, maybe that's explained by his "tagging" density(HEY, JUST KIDDING!), but what about the rest?

Scott-

[gkerber]

I won't get on my soapbox, but I will say that intuitive is an important consideration!  If gkerber didn't get it, maybe that's explained by his "tagging" density(HEY, JUST KIDDING!), but what about the rest?

Drag and drop is not an intuitive MO for me, and I'm "smarter than the average bear" (anyone remember where that came from?) compared to the "average" computer user, or maybe not, unix is in my blood (real men use a command line).

Would the average user have a clue what is going on when they select CD-Labler and they get a MC icon in the Action Window?  I think not.

But I digress, if that's in MC and others like it and use it and new users can figure it out, great!

I just want to be able to avoid it, maybe see Playing Now in the Action Window and be able to use Properties without having to rearrange my screen every time I import a file or decide to change a property in an existing file.

I suspect there are lots of lurkers out there reading these posts and saying to themselves "oh I'm glad someone asked about this and about that".  The difference between me and the lurkers is that I am vocal and not hesitant to say I don't understand out loud.

I learned a very long time ago, there is a much better chance of getting what one wants if they let others know what they want, else everyone else has to guess at what you want (this lesson was not software related, it was girlfriend related, but the overall concept applies).

[xen-uno]

I (personally) would like to see the properties have it's own dockable box as in earlier versions. I know you can undock the Action Window...but it's just not the same. As Scott said, Properties is not an action, and the set width works for everything else EXCEPT properties. Long tag entries force a width change if you want to read them. That was not an issue before properties inclusion in the AW. Alt Enter should be reserved for Properties, not as a toggle for the AW. I'm at a loss now on how to (quickly) bring up the properties...it was so easy before.

10^-27

[rocketsauce]

Did someone say lurker? I haven't tried any of the beta builds for awhile and have mostly been lurking about since most of the discussion topics lately have been about various 9.1 features.

I will throw in with gkerber, though, and say that I don't find drag and drop function (in any software) very intuitive or useful. One reason is because it's usually too easy to accidentally drop to the wrong destination (although I don't know if this is a problem with the Action Window, since I haven't tried it).

Rob

[j_c_livingston]

Awesome - I've missed a few of the most recent betas only to return and find that 'two pane' has been implemented.

I particularly like the drag and drop facility - producing playlists and arranging tracks on the fly will be a breeze now.

When showing long lists - it would be nice in the window did not scroll back to the beginning following a drop.

Keep up the good work !!

[ZRocker]

All I wanted/suggested was the we be able to configure the FIle Properties display such that 'Custom' was supported and we could selected which fields are displayed (individually) in the properties area (just like we can define columns)...this seems like a no brainer  to include since those Categories don't satisfy anybody (General, Extended, File Info, Audio, Display, ...).  Somehow Action Wacker came along to solve 'something', I guess (not sure what yet).

[Doof]

The Drop Target was a lot smaller before. Having it set to be this big is a good thing. You can set it to what you want, and then just drop your files to it, and BAM! It just works.

Like if you chose the CD Labeler. Drag your list of files to the drop target, and MC fires up the CD Labeler and sends those files to it. Can you do the same thing using the Send To command? Sure. But this gives users another way to do it.

It's like Windows. One of the best things about Windows is that there are several ways of accomplishing the same goal. So people who think in drag & drop mindset can do that. People who like the right clicks can do that. And people who like the command line can still do that.

MC is beginning to mimic this more and more. It's a good thing, IMO.

The playlists and Playing Now views just build on that by giving us the actual list. So we can order things as we add them.

[zevele10]

I would use the action window when burning a CD IF I could see the list of files in the list, otherwise to me it has no advantage over just right click, send to, burner.

-=-=-=-=-=

And ,with the new burning fonctions look like more people would use MC to burn.
Well , they would use MC if they can see list of files somewhere without to have to plug a second mouse == one for each hand,like it you can master MC--maybe...

[gkerber]

It's like Windows. One of the best things about Windows is that there are several ways of accomplishing the same goal. So people who think in drag & drop mindset can do that. People who like the right clicks can do that. And people who like the command line can still do that.

MC is beginning to mimic this more and more. It's a good thing, IMO.

I totally agree, it's good that windows has many ways to do the same thing.

My concern is that one of the ways we used have just got more difficult.  Tagging is one of the prime things I do in MC (other than playing music of course) and it just got harder.

Other tasks may or may not have got easier with the Action Window, but tagging and accessing properties is a step backwards (as of now in beta development).

[Doof]

I agree. But I'm sure that'll get ironed out.

A couple of things that I think could help:

1. Give us back a way to go straight to File Properties. The Action Window is needless slowing us down from getting there, simply to allow the Drop Target to reside in the same place. Give us back a toolbar icon, and give us back the right click option.

2. Autoswitching needs to become smarter, or go away altogether. Although it is predictable, it is very confusing. The logic is such that anytime we send anything to anywhere, the drop target switches to that location. The flaw there is that we already sent it! While we MAY decide to send more, it's not a guarantee.

Perfect example:

I had the Action Window set to File Properties. I imported a new file. The Action Window automatically switched to Recently Imported. So I then had to switch back to File Properties. Kind of annoying.

Some things could be safely predicted. Like if I send some files to the CD Burner, it's certainly reasonable that I may send more, and showing me the list of files already there would be a big help. The same goes for Handhelds. It's reasonable to assume that I'm not going to suddenly decide to edit tags on those files.

But if I import files, the expectation is not that I'm going to suddenly start adding files to Recently Imported. A more reasonable expectation is that I'm going to start editting properties. So take me to the Recently Imported playlist, and have the Action Window open File Properties.

[gkerber]

1. Give us back a way to go straight to File Properties. The Action Window is needless slowing us down from getting there, simply to allow the Drop Target to reside in the same place. Give us back a toolbar icon, and give us back the right click option.

Absoutley

2. Autoswitching needs to become smarter, or go away altogether.

I vote for it going away

I had the Action Window set to File Properties. I imported a new file. The Action Window automatically switched to Recently Imported. So I then had to switch back to File Properties. Kind of annoying.

Totally annoying.

But if I import files, the expectation is not that I'm going to suddenly start adding files to Recently Imported. A more reasonable expectation is that I'm going to start editting properties. So take me to the Recently Imported playlist, and have the Action Window open File Properties.

I can go along with that.

[nila]

All I wanted/suggested was the we be able to configure the FIle Properties display such that 'Custom' was supported and we could selected which fields are displayed (individually) in the properties area (just like we can define columns)...this seems like a no brainer  to include since those Categories don't satisfy anybody (General, Extended, File Info, Audio, Display, ...).  Somehow Action Wacker came along to solve 'something', I guess (not sure what yet).

I agree.
For now I've just given up on groups all together, I've edited every field I want to be able to edit and put them all in the 'General' group and just left MC set to that.
The grouping is just not easy/intuitive  to change between  and has no real 'group' value.


Before we had 'properties' and 'drop target' both on screen at the same time - we could edit an item and then drop it somewhere easily in a continual workflow - now both these totally seperate things have been merged into one screen which just makes it more of a choice between the two areas.
I'd have much prefered to have the old drop target still - just slightly bigger with the functionality of the new 'action pane' and the seperate properties window.
The merging of these two items is what has (for me at least) made drop target even less apealing and probably something I'll never use.

The loss of the old drop target also means now that I lose any visible indication on screen about CD Burning information if I have the properties window displaying.


Also - with the problem of the 'jumping around' of the action window - how about possible just a right click option of 'lock pane/manual change' - which just locks it in it's current screen or turns of 'auto changing'?

I've been SUPER busy with work for the last couple of weeks so haven't been able play with MC much or use the action pane much - but if it starts bouncing around and moving off of 'properties' - its going to really bug me

[nila]

Oh yeah,
and can we PLEASE have manual resizing back??

All this auto doing stuff is reminding me of the auto correction feature in MS Word which is one of the things I most get people asking me for help with and asking me why it keeps changing everything they're writing.

[slikvik]

Just noticed this thread. Sorry Jim/Matt but I posted my thoughts in the Beta thread which was not the best place. So here they are in the right place:

I can't believe this action homepage is even being entertained. It's not intuitive and it add's more mouse clicks. Don't get me wrong, I think the action space for Playing Now and Properties etc is excellent, it's the implementation which is off (IMHO.) Left click on the 'Home' and 'Action Picker' bring complex, unclear items. Right Click on current action section is the same (no Clear Playing Now in Playing Now.)

I think there are much better alternatives, such as the one here: http://www.futurehome.de/mc/split_view.htm.  
I know you said that this is too much for the 9.1 release, but the basic concepts are very simlar.  

Even if you don't use all his ideas, the fact that there is a permanently visible button to select each page, IMO, is essential.  Alternatively, put them all back as toolbar buttons that pop-up in the 'Action' space.

In addition, the 'i' button should bring up properties not the action homepage. And the properties Action window should be as it was before, not the extra drill down that we have now.

Think VERY carefully about the way your going here, this is not another panes vs tree development.

Cheers

Vic

[Stilton]

Drag and drop is not an intuitive MO for me, and I'm "smarter than the average bear" (anyone remember where that came from?)

Winnie the Pooh.


Regarding this discussion, I see this Action Window Whatsit as a step back, and in direct opposition to the things discussed in the Useablility threads started by the admin a while back. I was completely confused by the action window. Partly I agree because it's not fully functional yet, and it's still in the 'ideas' phase. but overall I can't see making things much easier.

Repeating functionality in this way is confusing. The usual way tools are called are from menus/context menus, and from one place on the main form. This is the tree. It is expected that running the tool is also available from the menu. But having a box below it which repeats the functionality is confusing, and suggests that the functions are different. Having it auto-resizing is at best off-putting, and at worst forces me to keep the action window hidden.

The main use I find for the action window is the Playing Now (I don't use playlists, but for those who do I see this is a real benifit too). You guys listened to the need to be able to see the playing now, and implemented it, and for that we should be extremely thankful. But the implentation really confuses an already tricky interface.

I'm sure you are all bored and tired of us asking for the split-pane idea slikvik mentions above - but this is really what needs to be aimed for. It makes the inteface so much cleaner, and yet gives so much more power.

[phelt]

Winnie == dolt. Yogi was "smarter than the average bear". From the Yogi Bear Show, Hanna-Barbera. I love Google.

[nila]

Here's an idea - Alt+Enter has always been the shortcut to show or hide properties.

Properties is no longer an item and it is now the 'action window'

Why not instead restore this behavior to Alt+Enter so that if we hit this - it instantly brings up the properties pane in the 'action window' - hitting it again restores the action pane to whatever it was previous at.

Then assign a different key combo to hide or show the action panel?

Also with the properties button - make it so clicking it makes action window jump to properties - pressing it again makes it jump back to whatever it was at.
Add a new button to open or close the action pane.



Another idea might be to add a mini toolbar at the bottom of the action pane - a mini 'location' bar - that we can add buttons to to jump to spots in the action pane - like an explorer 'links' type bar so people can quickly get to panes they use a lot?

[jleerigby]

I just want to say that SlikVik's idea in the other thread is just fantastic.

[gkerber]

Who said - "'cause I'm smarter than the average bear"

Winnie the Pooh.  GONG.... It was Yogi the Bear.

[gkerber]

I've been SUPER busy with work for the last couple of weeks so haven't been able play with MC much or use the action pane much - but if it starts bouncing around and moving off of 'properties' - its going to really bug me

Well.... unless it's changed, you may want to stay busy at the office.

But MC has a way of tweaking and fiddling until they hit a good compromies, lets hope this time is no different.