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[johnb263]

Hi, I've seen a problem with older versions of MC - I updated to the latest version (22.0.48), and I still see the same - trying push raw format from a ISO file through to a AVR using Wasapi.

I followed the instructions to mount and play ISO files on the JRiver Wiki (except for the part using MadVR to smooth out the video, since I have no problems with Video)
I have MC running on Win8, through a Sapphire Radeon RX480 connected via HDMI to a Denon AVR-X2000 which I use for sound. The HDMI passes from there to a TV.

Windows sound is set up for WASAPI (sound:Denon -> advanced -> allow exclusive access), and I have enhancements turned off. There are several sound devices on the setup, I have the Denon selected as the default.

JRiver MC is set up to use DENON-AVR (2-AMD High Definition Audio Device) [WASAPI],
with "open device for exclusive access", Automatic bit depth, 100 milliseconds buffering. I've tried with and without "Disable event style" without any difference in the issue

I've imported several DVD's and BD disks to the library - they play fine on MC, excellent video quality and the Audio works, but I would like to pass the original format through to the Denon AVR using Wasapi. I can (and have been able to) do this (with the same ISO, and the same setup) using Kodi without any issues, with the Denon recognizing the original format without fail. This works with all the formats that I could throw at it (using Kodi).

But, with MC, I've not been able to get the Denon to recognize anything but PCM audio. JRiver MC reports through "audio path" :
48kHz 24bit 8ch from source format dts-hd ma (which is the format of one of the BD's, Promethius, for example, and supported by the denon)
No Changes,
and
48Khz 24bit (padded) 8ch using WASAPI (direct connection).

But The Denon recognizes it as PCM. With Kodi, it would recognize it as DTS-HD.

I suspect it has something to do with the "padded" thing above - but I'm not sure.

Apologies in advance if I've missed something on the forums / web - I've been searching and trying to solve this for a long time -

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


 

[CountryBumkin]

But, with MC, I've not been able to get the Denon to recognize anything but PCM audio. JRiver MC reports through "audio path" :
48kHz 24bit 8ch from source format dts-hd ma (which is the format of one of the BD's, Promethius, for example, and supported by the denon)
No Changes,
and
48Khz 24bit (padded) 8ch using WASAPI (direct connection).

But The Denon recognizes it as PCM. With Kodi, it would recognize it as DTS-HD.

I suspect it has something to do with the "padded" thing above - but I'm not sure.

Apologies in advance if I've missed something on the forums / web - I've been searching and trying to solve this for a long time -

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

The Denon showing "PCM" is correct - its is still DTS-HD or whatever you are sending but since JRiver is doing the processing of the audio it show as PCM.

If you want to see the "DTS-HD" light on the Denon, then you select  "bit streaming" under Audio settings in MC. Then the Denon will do the processing internally, but then you can't use the JRiver audio processing (DSP) features like "volume leveling", and "VideoClock". It's up to you. try it both ways and see if you have a preference.

[johnb263]

Thanks for the quick reply - I tried using bitstreaming (I had it set to none) -
using bit-streaming -> HDMI gives the "play back problem" window with "the audio format may not be supported etc.etc.")

I then tried the different options under bit streaming -> "custom" - for the Promethius video as example (DTS-HD), I selected DTS-HD only - the video plays but it  still shows up as PCM.
Dolby D (Joe Black, hitch hikers guide), works as advertised - Denon reports Dolby D. Unfortunately most of my BD's are in DTS-HD..

On a sidenote, in the bit streaming -> custom dialog, I can select all the formats except DTS (not DTS-HD). Selecting DTS will cause the "play back problem" window.
There are no selections in DSP Studio (in case that is important).

[astromo]

Apologies if I may be misunderstanding the problem but is selection of the audio stream from within MC relevant?

So, during playback, go for the context menu / right click and pick "Streams" (I think?) and the options for audio should show up or not be too hard to find. MC might be stuck on PCM as the default selection. I'm probably wrong, I'm a simple stereo kind of guy.

Good post of the problem. Excellent detail.

[johnb263]

Checked -  the "streams" context shows
dts-hd ma, 48000hz,  5.1, s24
same as the "input" in the audio path dialog.
When I play a Dolby D ISO, the output format description in the audio path does not contain the "padded" description. But then, it's also 16 bit instead of 24 bit.

So, for example,
input 48 bit, 16bit, 2ch from source format ac3
output input 48 bit, 16bit, 2ch using WASAPI (bitstreaming)
and Denon reports Dolby Digital.

but with BD DTS-HD:
input 48kHz 24bit 8ch from source format dts-hd ma
output 48Khz 24bit (padded) 8ch using WASAPI (direct connection).
and Denon reports PCM.

What does "padded" mean? 16 Bit padded to 24 bit? MC should be able to handle 24bit audio?

[CountryBumkin]

Also don't forget to check the settings in Windows Sound if your using WASAPI. Windows Control Panel >Sound, then look at the settings for your default audio device (under Advance tab). Sometimes these get reset during windows updates.

[blgentry]

Just for clarity:  When your Denon shows PCM as the input, that's because MC is sending PCM to it.  PCM is uncompressed and is a full bandwidth full quality format.  You're not losing anything.

Why is MC sending PCM?  Because MC is acting as the decoder:  MC's internal algorithms are converting from the various formats (AC3, DTS, DTS-HD, etc) to PCM.  Guess what the Denon does when it receives multi-channel formats like DTS?  It converts them to PCM!

So really this is just a question of which component is doing the conversion.  If MC and the Denon both follow the specs of the format, then the results should be identical.  As in BIT IDENTICAL.  I've read (and heard) all kinds of crazy BS about how much better "my receiver" is at converting DTS (or other surround formats) than MC is.  But, to me, this is all a bunch of wild speculation and "buyers loyalty" because they spent so much money on their receiver. 

Unless the receiver manufacturer is doing something that's beyond the spec of the format (like adding in their own surround effects, tweaking the equalization without telling you, or playing psychoaccoustic tricks), then the results will be identical from MC.  Think about it.  What would a receiver be doing differently than MC?  The spec (for each surround format) is the spec.  You either decode it properly or you don't.

The only real compelling reasons to use your receiver for decoding are:

1.  The speaker size/distance and subwoofer management in your receiver are much easier to use, or don't work with a PCM source.
2.  You have a large collection of movies that contain surround formats that MC will not decode.

Otherwise, it's pretty much a wash.

Why am I writing SO MUCH about this subject that doesn't even affect me?  Because I watch discussion after discussion about this and about the difficulty of getting bitstreaming to work with every single format.  Bitstreaming is tricky to set up for whatever reason.  But here's the thing:  You aren't really gaining much unless #1 or #2 above apply to you.

All of this, as usual, is just my overly opinionated perspective.  Do what makes you happy. Which might include ignoring me! 

Good luck,

Brian.

[johnb263]

Well - you've hit the nail on the head - "because they spent so much money on their receiver".. 

As for me, I'ts nice to have some "proof" that the audio is not modified from source to receiver - and if the receiver reports the original format - then I know at least that what I'm listening to is what was advertised on the cover. If anything sounds strange, then I can blame the receiver, speakers or the rest of the system.  I appreciate the fact that MC should not modify the audio - PCM or not - but, it's software.

And then, Why is DTS-HD handled differently than Dolby? Is there no pcm encoding in dolby?

I dont have a super expensive receiver, for sure - but it was great to see this working with Kodi, and it sounds great, even on what I have. And, it seems that the receiver now acts as the audio processor - as it should - so it should receive audio that is pushed straight from the source. Kodi have other problems, though, and I like MC's interface and PVR functionality (so far).

As for the "padded" acronym, I found this post:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=86325.0
But it still does not explain why it works in one case and not in another.

Finally - in windows, I have the properties of the AVR set as 24bit, 48000hz, and have "allow exclusive access" ticked. I don't have any enhancements selected - again, these settings work fine with Kodi / XBMC.

Thanks for the replies - much appreciated.

[johnb263]

Following up, problem seems solved with the BD ISO audio format not being recognized by a Denon AV player. Not sure which part fixed it, though -

I was running on windows 8.1 64bit, upgraded to Windows 10 (not a fresh install), so had to install a new version of Media Center. In the process of course WMC got removed. I also uninstalled Kodi. I uninstalled the previous version of JRiver, downloaded and installed again.  I had to go through all the settings (luckily the Library files and TV channel favorites / ignore list was kept intact).  I *think* something that that's different now is that I deselected options - audio - volume mode: disabled volume.

BD, DVD/ Video ISO's now show the play back format on the Denon in the advertised format as shown on the disk cover. Audio Path no longer shows "padded".

Audio files, not so much, still shows "padded" in the audio path - I can live with that, but it got me thinking that if there are specified cross-fading etc, in the options, then of course the audio volume needs to be modified. Disabling that does not change anything though.

So, the conclusion is that it is possible, after all (although it may not be that useful as far as sound quality is concerned).