Topic: Record Vinyl with MC22 :) (Read 10818 times)

Hilton · « **on:** December 23, 2016, 05:13:50 am »

Here's a new use for MC22 - I got a RIAA equalization VST and a recording VST to record via USB to WAV with RIAA equalization applied in DSP studio

record vinyl by Hilton, on Flickr

Hilton · « **Reply #1 on:** December 23, 2016, 05:23:32 am »

Also for those that want to know what I've used hardware wise.

Technics SL1210 MK5 TT with Ortofon Stylus 40 (Super OM40) connected to M-Audio ADC 2 channel > USB on the PC > MC22 Live capture > DSP with RIAA and MRecorder > Wav

Rip vinyl by Hilton, on Flickr

Blu99Zoomer · « **Reply #2 on:** December 23, 2016, 09:49:42 am »

This looks really interesting. Next project has to include an ADC now. SANTA!! Am I too late...

davelr · « **Reply #3 on:** December 23, 2016, 09:57:28 am »

You might want to look into "Vinyl Studio". I used to use Audyssey for vinyl capture, but Vinyl Studio makes the entire process very much easier. Track isolation and naming are quite easy and the click and pop removal is very good. An old and quite worn copy of "Cheap Thrills" that I had came out of the process almost without any clicks or pops. Can't recommend it enough.

Blu99Zoomer · « **Reply #4 on:** December 23, 2016, 10:00:49 am »

Nice. I have read some postive comments about Vinyl Studio in the past and had forgotten about that. Thanks davelr!!

Best Regards,

Blu99Zoomer

MusicHawk · « **Reply #5 on:** December 23, 2016, 01:54:22 pm »

Thanks for sharing your setup. I'm curious about the frequency response coming off the turntable. More than just amplifying the very low output and flattening the RIAA pre-emphasis, a true phono preamp also loads the moving magnet (MM) cartridge with the official high resistance of 47,000 Ohms and capacitance of ballpark 100 picoFarads. (Pro gear often allows these to be adjusted to account for cartridge and cable variations.) The very high impedance is why turntable cables must be short and carefully arranged.

Feeding a high impedance MM phono cartridge into a low impedance microphone input on-paper doesn't present an appropriate load. For instance, a typical pro mic load is 600 Ohms. This low impedance allows long-ish microphone cables, especially when the mic-cable-input is a balanced (3-wire) circuit.

Of course, standards are on paper, which the real world often ignores. And, the specs arose in vacuum tube days, which were more sensitive to variations than modern circuits. So, in your setup, how is the phono cartridge as source being handled? Is the mic input switchable to provide a "phono" cartridge load? Do you detect any audio anomalies that the software doesn't fix?

dtc · « **Reply #6 on:** December 23, 2016, 05:47:53 pm »

Vinyl Studio is the way to go. It is easy to use, can separate and name your tracks using Internet searches to get the information and does a good job of cleaning up pops and clicks, hum, etc. $29 and a free trial. It also has RIAA equalization for almost any record you might have. That is important if you are doing early records, since it has changed over time. You can record in PCM or DSD, although you should be aware that you cannot do pop and click removal with DSD.

Hilton · « **Reply #7 on:** December 23, 2016, 06:12:00 pm »

Quote from: MusicHawk on December 23, 2016, 01:54:22 pm

Thanks for sharing your setup. I'm curious about the frequency response coming off the turntable. More than just amplifying the very low output and flattening the RIAA pre-emphasis, a true phono preamp also loads the moving magnet (MM) cartridge with the official high resistance of 47,000 Ohms and capacitance of ballpark 100 picoFarads. (Pro gear often allows these to be adjusted to account for cartridge and cable variations.) The very high impedance is why turntable cables must be short and carefully arranged.

Feeding a high impedance MM phono cartridge into a low impedance microphone input on-paper doesn't present an appropriate load. For instance, a typical pro mic load is 600 Ohms. This low impedance allows long-ish microphone cables, especially when the mic-cable-input is a balanced (3-wire) circuit.

Of course, standards are on paper, which the real world often ignores. And, the specs arose in vacuum tube days, which were more sensitive to variations than modern circuits. So, in your setup, how is the phono cartridge as source being handled? Is the mic input switchable to provide a "phono" cartridge load? Do you detect any audio anomalies that the software doesn't fix?

Hi - yes you're quite correct - the inputs on the m-audio have instrument/line level switches.

The instrument level provides the high impedance needed by the MM cartridge. The effect of switching in between line/instrument is quite pronounced with a big roll off of the HF sound when using standard line in setting. So the MM phono definitely needs the high impedance load. The gain setting on the m-audio input is almost maxed out and set for about -10db to boost the low level signal.

As for how it sounds - I've listened back to a couple of tracks that I have on both vinyl and FLAC from CD and the vinyl sounds wonderfully full with a very even response. There's maybe a little more sparkle in the FLAC but the vinyl rip doesn't lack any high end, it cuts through nicely with no detectable sibilance.

That's down to the excellent ortofon super om40 cartridge/stylus. It's tonally very accurate with specs of 20hz - 30khz. A very well loved sound by even vinyl purist audiophiles. You can certainly get better but there's diminishing returns at this point.

The original Super OM40 was so loved that now they're out of production the price has gone up if you can find one. Full fat bass without getting boomy, wide soundstage, very natural and easy to listen to. Needs careful setup but once done it tracks everything beautifully.

Hilton · « **Reply #8 on:** December 23, 2016, 06:53:10 pm »

Quote from: davelr on December 23, 2016, 09:57:28 am

You might want to look into "Vinyl Studio". I used to use Audyssey for vinyl capture, but Vinyl Studio makes the entire process very much easier. Track isolation and naming are quite easy and the click and pop removal is very good. An old and quite worn copy of "Cheap Thrills" that I had came out of the process almost without any clicks or pops. Can't recommend it enough.

Thanks will have to check that out!

blgentry · « **Reply #9 on:** December 23, 2016, 06:57:42 pm »

If you're interested enough in sound quality to invest in a "serious" cartridge and stylus, why in the world would you not use a REAL phono preamp instead of leaving it up to guess work to match impedance?

A REALLY nice phono preamp can be had for ~$100 US. (Schiit Mani for example gets incredible reviews and was designed by someone who is deeply familiar with the requirements of making a phono preamp with great sound quality).

Brian.

Hilton · « **Reply #10 on:** December 23, 2016, 08:15:56 pm »

Quote from: blgentry on December 23, 2016, 06:57:42 pm

If you're interested enough in sound quality to invest in a "serious" cartridge and stylus, why in the world would you not use a REAL phono preamp instead of leaving it up to guess work to match impedance?

A REALLY nice phono preamp can be had for ~$100 US. (Schiit Mani for example gets incredible reviews and was designed by someone who is deeply familiar with the requirements of making a phono preamp with great sound quality).

Brian.

Yes for sure - was using what I had around. Am looking for a decent preamp. Still nice to learn the reasons for things and the bits and pieces needed to make a good signal chain.

Hilton · « **Reply #11 on:** December 24, 2016, 04:38:21 am »

Here's a rip of Dire Straits Private Investigations from the Album best of Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler.
No editing straight from vinyl to 44/16bit Wav with RIAA equalization done in MC22. (as per my above configuration)

Let me know what you think - I'm sure some of you have this one around somewhere in SACD or FLAC.
I compared it to a different mix I have on SACD and the Vinyl sounds more spacious with more air with a much bigger sound stage. It's a very quiet piece of vinyl this one.

[link removed by JimH]

BillT · « **Reply #12 on:** December 24, 2016, 04:49:25 am »

Quote from: blgentry on December 23, 2016, 06:57:42 pm

If you're interested enough in sound quality to invest in a "serious" cartridge and stylus, why in the world would you not use a REAL phono preamp instead of leaving it up to guess work to match impedance?

That's what I was thinking. It's clever that you can do equalisation in software, but it seems simpler and more sensible to impedance match, equalise and raise levels the old fashioned way.

Unfortunately there can still be a bit of trial and error involved in MM cartridge matching. Some cartridges were very sensitive to capacitive loading and others weren't. If a cartridge was load sensitive and you were bothered by it you may still want to add or remove capacitance from the amp input (or even change the resistance, not all cartridges wanted 47k load resistance).

I use an old Project Phonobox MM, which is cheap and more than good enough for analogue records.

Hilton · « **Reply #13 on:** December 24, 2016, 05:14:30 am »

Yeah this Ortofon Super OM40 is designed for 47k impedance and 200 to 400pf capacitance.

From what I understand the capacitance moves the resonant frequency up or down the audio spectrum and the impedance provides the HF lift or droop from 8k to 20k.

I think the M-Audio ADC sounds quite nice set with instrument impedance. Don't know what the capacitance is on it but my ears like the sound signature. Not too bright not too dark - just right.

Hilton · « **Reply #14 on:** December 30, 2016, 07:23:41 am »

Just wanted to let you guys know that iZotope VST plugins work great in MC22.

I'm trialing the iZotope RX Plugin pack and the de-click and de-noise work very very well. (de-noise removes rumble and hiss)
You can even output the "clicks only" in real-time that it's removing to make sure it's not de-clicking anything it shouldn't be.

Izotope-declick by Hilton, on Flickr

izotope-denoise by Hilton, on Flickr

De-click is not quite as good using Click Repair on a recorded file, but pretty dam close, plus you can hear in real-time what it's doing.

If you wanted to rip your vinyl and just keep the original raw files you could then use the plugins when you want to playback original rips and apply whatever settings you feel like or use them when you create transcodes to other formats with the de-click and de-noise. That way you've always got the original file and don't have to spend anywhere near as much time on cleaning them up.

dtc · « **Reply #15 on:** December 30, 2016, 07:48:38 am »

Have you tried Vinyl Studio? It does declick and hiss and hum removal and also preserves the original file. Not a plugin, but I do not see a need to do cleanup on the fly within MC. It is pretty much a one time operation. Of course you can always go back and change a portion if you wish. With VS you can look at the waveform you are fixing and see the before and after and you can apply manual fixes if you want. That is very useful for hard to fix portions. It also has settings for brass and percussion which helps false positives for those sounds. Only $29 with a 30 day trial.

Hilton · « **Reply #16 on:** December 30, 2016, 08:02:46 am »

Yeah I've got it. Vinyl Studio De-click is not real great - it works but it's not as good as Click Repair or iZotope de-click. It leaves a lot of aliasing noise after the de-click compared to the others.

I spent ages trying them all on lead-ins and lead-outs from a few albums and Click Repair has least effect on the dynamics of the track and leaves no evidence of it's work. So for offline work I think I'd use Click Repair and then Vinyl Studio for the cutting and tagging.

I did really like the noise reduction filters in Vinyl Studio though, very good, along with all the other features.

I also just like to put on vinyl and listen to it too though, so using the plugins in MC allows me to playback in real-time and clean the vinyl up in real-time.
There's something about handling vinyl.

This let's me serve my handling vinyl fetish and it gives me the best sound I can get out of it.

lepa · « **Reply #17 on:** December 30, 2016, 01:26:09 pm »

I'd prefer thorough cleaning of the record (or quiet pressing) instead of doing any noise reduction by SW (maybe very gently on noisy passages). Click removal by hand (ClickRepair / izotope) but no noise removal. For RIAA maybe it would be wise to use SW RIAA only for old 78" records because at that time curves could be different for different labels. If there is hum then definitely solve it on HW level..

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #18 on:** December 30, 2016, 03:11:18 pm »

Wow I know I haven't been around for a while but I just had to chime in

.

Nice setup. When I recorded I used Audacity. I tried noise reduction and click reduction but it was way too much work. I eventually decided to stop recording vinyl at all and simply play vinyl

.

If you're still looking for a (very!) good pre-amp, look at Emotiva's XPS-1.

This is basically the same phono pre-amp that is in their XSP-1 reference stereo pre-amplifier. I own one and it is really, very good.

Nice turn table by the way

.

Here's my setup in the pictures attached. Just today I sunk the turntable into the cabinet, so that it's flush with the top. Cartridge is a Audio Technica MLX150, not on the picture because I took it off while moving the turntable and working on the cabinet. I still need to do some work on the edges though, I don't mean to leave it with that gap, but the turntable needs to be detached otherwise it gets a nasty ringing and resonance.

syndromeofadown · « **Reply #19 on:** January 03, 2017, 03:52:48 pm »

Quote

I got a RIAA equalization VST

What one are you using?

Quote

I'm trialing the iZotope RX Plugin pack

How did you find the install and licensing for this product?
I gave it a quick try but with no luck.

Thanks for all of the great information here.

Hilton · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2017, 12:44:26 am »

No worries mate Ill get back to you on the RIAA VST with a link.

I settled on a decent Phono-Pre today for my Birthday (1st Jan - yeah for me)

Here's a couple pics unboxed. I'll let you know later how it sounds being captured by the Asus Sonar Essence STX II @ 192/24bit

Very adjustable little box. $770 AU from Apollo Hifi in Marickville. (thanks guys!)

I nearly settled on Cambridge Audio CP2 but the little Pro-ject Tube Box DS has way more adjustability to cater to system tweaks, upgrades and personal sound preferences!
Adjustable capacitance, gain and impedance loading (variable at that)
Also you can roll tubes through it though I'm not sure I'll go that far with it.

Pro-ject Tube Box DS by Hilton, on Flickr

Hilton · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2017, 04:08:40 am »

Quote from: syndromeofadown on January 03, 2017, 03:52:48 pm

What one are you using?

How did you find the install and licensing for this product?
I gave it a quick try but with no luck.

Thanks for all of the great information here.

Here's the RIAA VST.
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Audio/Audio-Plugins/RIAA.shtml

Installation of Izotope was straight forward. Just add the 32bit VST DLL to DSP studio in MC22. default installation directory is here> C:\Program Files (x86)\Steinberg\VstPlugins
When you run the VST in DSP studio just click the trial button. I haven't purchased yet but will tonight.

Off to play with my new toy..

Hilton · « **Reply #22 on:** January 04, 2017, 04:28:43 am »

Hey Jim and guys - Does MC22 wdm sound card not support 24bit?
Guess I'll have to install another capture device that does.

MC22 WDM by Hilton, on Flickr

HiFiTubes · « **Reply #23 on:** January 04, 2017, 05:47:57 am »

There are some proven benefits to digital RIAA which PureVinyl is based on. If you were using a MM or MI cart you could use something the the AEA Big Ribbon mic pre which has a good enough match for the Grado carts. I think it was a about 35K whcih some argued was much better loading for Grados higher end Moving Irons.

I will dig around for the 192kHz VST I got on head-fi which has some heavy math and very little error. I use an analog stage now, but digital RIAA can sound incredible.

Quote from: BillT on December 24, 2016, 04:49:25 am

That's what I was thinking. It's clever that you can do equalisation in software, but it seems simpler and more sensible to impedance match, equalise and raise levels the old fashioned way.

Unfortunately there can still be a bit of trial and error involved in MM cartridge matching. Some cartridges were very sensitive to capacitive loading and others weren't. If a cartridge was load sensitive and you were bothered by it you may still want to add or remove capacitance from the amp input (or even change the resistance, not all cartridges wanted 47k load resistance).

I use an old Project Phonobox MM, which is cheap and more than good enough for analogue records.

Hilton · « **Reply #24 on:** January 04, 2017, 05:53:59 am »

Wow that little box sounds amazing!

I thought the system sounded good before with M-Audio and VST RIAA - this little beasty has smoothed out the treble slightly and is very natural, fast and warmish without being bloated.

For my Ortofon Super OM40 cartridge/stylus it's set for 40db gain, 147PF capacitance, 47k load impedance. (with cable inductance of around 90pf that'll end up just over 240pf which is what's recommended for that stylus)

I'll post a video shortly of how I've got MC22 setup.

Hilton · « **Reply #25 on:** January 04, 2017, 06:17:22 am »

Quote from: HiFiTubes on January 04, 2017, 05:47:57 am

There are some proven benefits to digital RIAA which PureVinyl is based on. If you were using a MM or MI cart you could use something the the AEA Big Ribbon mic pre which has a good enough match for the Grado carts. I think it was a about 35K whcih some argued was much better loading for Grados higher end Moving Irons.

I will dig around for the 192kHz VST I got on head-fi which has some heavy math and very little error. I use an analog stage now, but digital RIAA can sound incredible.

Thanks for the info - much appreciated! The Ortofon Super OM40 is actually a MI cartridge/stylus but most people don't know what a MI cart is. So most people think of it as a MM. The coils and magnets for the OM40 are built into the housing and the stylus tube cantilever end is made of iron instead of a magnet. Advantage is lighter tracking force and more detail is extracted and higher frequency response. MI gets some of the benefits of MC without the downside of low output and hum issues of MC. MI also track much better than both MC and MM carts. The Super OM40 is about as close to a MC as you can get. (with better tracking)

HiFiTubes · « **Reply #26 on:** January 04, 2017, 06:21:24 am »

Sounds like a great cart. I used to have the Ortofon X5MC? High output?

Great to see folks using MC for phono recording. I had a PS Audio phono for a while and was recording in DSD but eventually just went with another nice stage; no time to record any more.

I'd love to try another moving iron as I think Grado has some lower mass carts out now, but I am using a really low oupyt MC the Audio Technica Art9.

Keep it spinning!

Hilton · « **Reply #27 on:** January 04, 2017, 06:23:42 am »

Video of the setup. (click the pic to go to flickr and watch the video)

Project tube box DS MC22 capture by Hilton, on Flickr

Hilton · « **Reply #28 on:** January 04, 2017, 06:36:17 am »

Quote from: HiFiTubes on January 04, 2017, 06:21:24 am

Sounds like a great cart. I used to have the Ortofon X5MC? High output?

Great to see folks using MC for phono recording. I had a PS Audio phono for a while and was recording in DSD but eventually just went with another nice stage; no time to record any more.

I'd love to try another moving iron as I think Grado has some lower mass carts out now, but I am using a really low oupyt MC the Audio Technica Art9.

Keep it spinning!

Yes the X5MC is a HOMC with the same stylus tip as the OM40.

I looked at the Korg DS-DAC-10R to record in DSD 2.8Mhz or 5.6Mhz - Now that's a device you don't hear much about. It also does digital RIAA in Audiogate software and has several RIAA curves available. (all RIAA and editing is done in 2.8Mhz or 5.6Mhz PCM so it's not a pure DSD recorder but you'd be hard pressed to hear the difference)
Hard to get in Australia but I think I'll probably end up with one at some stage to play with.

(it does playback and recording of DSD and PCM)

Wow the PS Audio Phono is half price at the moment (around $900) that's a steal. Might have to get one!

dtc · « **Reply #29 on:** January 04, 2017, 11:24:34 am »

The Korg is a newer version of the MR-2000s which was a commonly used adc for digitizing vinyl before it was discontinued. The 2000s stored files to disk whereas the new version uses usb. I like writing to disk better, since it does not tie up a PC while recording and there is no chance of computer noise interferring. Korg is mainly aimed at the professional market. The new 10R is an exception. It is a third the price of the old 2000s, although that was often discounted so it was only twice the price of the new 10R. The 10R is a direct competitor to the Tascam DA-3000, which does write to disk rather than using usb, at a lower price. For entry level digitizing, the Korg DR-05 ($100, 96 KHz) and the DR-100mkiii ($300, 192 KHz) are good if you do not need DSD. The problem with DSD is that you cannot edit it without converting to PCM.

I use Audiogate simply to stitch files from the my MR-2000 back together. (When recording to disk files are limited to 1 GB, so several files are needed for higher sample rates.) The other functions in Audiogate are pretty primitive, although the DSD to PCM conversion routine is pretty good. I find Vinyl Studio much easier to use for pretty much everything. VS also has a very large selection of RIAA conversions available.

The Pro-ject is a nice little box. The adjustments are particular nice in that price range. Does not look like you can turn on RIAA though.

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Author Topic: Record Vinyl with MC22 :) (Read 10818 times)