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Instead of a subjective listening test

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sorepinky:
OK I realise this is a diversion, so Jim please feel free to shift these posts elsewhere, but as an experiment I have done this in DSP Studio:



The result is inaudibility of any sound whatsoever over the 35 or so dB background noise in my study from both of my speakers when turned up to 100% and playing any stereo track and a blank screen in the "Analyzer"! This is using my basic PC speakers, but it establishes a baseline.

So as an alternative to the subjective "listening test" (where the same track with different formats is compared at different times) why not make another routine called say "Play the difference" (or "What's over Red Book?" or something else) in which the user could select any high-res track and have a routine do this:

(it's intended to compare just the left channel of a high res track with itself after being down-converted then up-converted to where it started, but to play back the difference in both channels)

Make a temp file copy of the hi-res track - save that as Temp File A
Downsample Temp File A to 44.1/16 - save that as temp File B
Upsample Temp file B back to the original format and save that as Temp File C
Delete Temp File B
Use Temp files A and C to make a track with the left channel of Temp file A as the left channel and the left channel of Temp File C as the right channel - save that as Temp File D
Delete Temp Files A and C
Play Temp File D doing the following:
Reverse polarity of right channel
Add left to right
Copy right to left (so that any difference will be heard through both speakers)

Imagine the blank looks on people's faces when listening to nothing and seeing nothing in Analyzer, or the smiles on their faces when they can actually hear and see a difference!

Hendrik:
We already know that there are mathematical differences between various formats, thats not the question and easily proven, and listening to such differences would be pointless, since its nothing but noise if you take out the common signal.
If it would be so easy to debunk or prove high-res audio or whatever, people would've done it years ago. :)

The real question is if there are actual audible differences people can make out between various formats under real listening conditions, or if those miniscule differences between these formats are imperceptible?

sorepinky:
My proposal will play the actual audible difference if one exists.  Simple as that.  If a null audible result is confronting to some people, that would be a mere side effect.  If I'm sitting in front of speakers that are apparently playing nothing, the listening condiions (which are real) are exactly the same as if something is playing as usual.

Apart from removing the placebo effect and all the other problems associated with playing tracks at different times to enable the making of subjective assessments, my proposal automatically removes any imagined differences.  It also removes the need for double-blind test conditions.

The listening test as it stands does neither of these.

By the way, your comment that the difference is just noise may well hold true for the listening test as it stands anyway.

JimH:
I moved these posts from the Listening Test thread since they were off topic.

Maybe you could try the Listening Test and post your results in that thread.  As Hendrik said ...


--- Quote from: Hendrik on February 07, 2017, 03:45:23 am ---The real question is if there are actual audible differences people can make out between various formats under real listening conditions, or if those miniscule differences between these formats are imperceptible?

--- End quote ---

sorepinky:
I already did, and whilst Hendrik may well be referring to a "real" question, so am I.  I'm just taking the subjectiveness out of it.

At the moment I am trying to find a way to do the following step myself:

"Use Temp files A and C to make a track with the left channel of Temp file A as the left channel and the left channel of Temp File C as the right channel - save that as Temp File D"

Can someone help me or guide me to free software that will enable that step to be done, or can someone offer to do it for me if I send them files A and C as 176.4/24 WAVs.  I can create File A using dbPoweramp or Audiogate from DSD (yes I still have an old version which allows that).  I can create File C (down-converting and up converting FIle A) using dbPoweramp.

The only problem that I can see in my approach is that if the down-conversion and up-conversion introduced any kind of phase shift (which would be inaudible on playback of file C just as if using the "listening test"), they could affect the summing step to produce an audible difference that could not be attributed to the format difference per-se.

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