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[loddie]

Hello all,

I have an Dolby Atmos/DTS:X receiver with 11.2 pre-outs.  It is likely it will be a very long time, if ever, before software decoders become available for these surround formats.  I'd like to use MC to take advantage of the digital volume control, auto re-sampling, and convolution capabilities (plan to use Acourate).  At the same time, I'd like to experience the new audio surround formats and use the same audio system for both home theater and serious audio listening (different surround formats though).  Thus, I'd like to combine the Pioneer SC95 receiver with a MC HTPC.  I am aware of the multiple AD/DA conversions, but am not concerned about that. If they are audible, I believe the addition DSP and channels will more than offset the negatives (if you want to discuss debate this, please start another thread - I like this thread to stay on topic of how to make this work). FWIW, I hope to accomplish this on the Mac version of MC, if possible.

For input AND output, I'll be using 4 Motu Travelers merged as an OS X "aggregate device".  I created the aggregate device and MC sees it, but my guess is MC only wants to use it for output, not input. Here is the proposed audio path:

HD Blu-ray player>Pioneer SC-95>Motu Travelers input>MC>Motu Travelers output>Amplifiers.

1. How do I take the 11.2 pre-outs of the receiver and input them into MC as independent channels?
2. Is this possible on the Mac version? If not, is it possible on the PC version?

This quote:

do you mean for asio line in? if so then the limit of 32 channels applies there as well

from https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,108772.msg753350.html#msg753350 seems to suggest this is possible.
 
I also have Plogue Bidule if needed, and I could acquire LoopBack for routing in OS X if needed (or Jack, had problems with Soundflower).

The final proposed set-up will be complex (up to 11.2 channel input/32 channel output), but I plan to start as simple as possible and build up complexity as I learn.  The first step is figuring out how to get the 11.2 pre-outs from the receiver into MC.

Any assistance is appreciated 

[mattkhan]

The Mac doesn't have line in capability, windows does so windows is the only option.

I think latency through jriver kills this idea though as there is no way to delay the video

[loddie]

Matt,

Thanks for the response. I'll try setting it up on a PC then. 

Yes, latency will probably have an effect.  Regarding latency, isn't the delay dependent on the filter length?  In other words, the number on channels doesn't affect latency (more channels doesn't mean more latency), instead the longest filter will determine total latency.

I'm going to try use MC to delay video. If it won't, I'll try other software.  Started a thread for a video delay PC/Mac here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,109302.msg756539.html#msg756539

[mattkhan]

IME jriver requires non trivial buffer sizes to achieve glitch free playback, this cost is on top of the filter induced delay which, as you say, does scale with the length of the filter. You're not routing video through jriver though, just audio, so jriver can't help you with this problem.

[loddie]

For video buffer, how does one increase capabilities (regardless of software)?  Is it RAM, graphics card RAM, solid state drive, other, or all the above?

[jmone]

On the AV Sync, I use "Tools --> Options--> Video--> Advanced--> A/V Sync Correction" on the Zone I use for Whole House Audio to dealy the Video by 700ms to match the latency of the Airplay Stream I use.  Works well for me in this situation.

[loddie]

Jmone, thanks, I'll give that a try. 

I may be able to do everything on one computer, but if necessary, I can run one instance of MC for audio processing on one computer and a second instance on different computer for video delay.  Not sure if one computer will handle both as the video delay will input via a Blackmagic Insensity Pro 4K capture card and may require a lot of computing power.

[loddie]

OK, so I was able to install MC on a Windows 10 PC.  Was able to recognize the Motu Travelers. I'll have to research how to get MC to recognize all four Motu Travelers as one device.  In Mac OS X, it is easy - just create an "aggregate device".  Not sure how to do it in Windows yet. 

If MC cannot recognize all Motu Travelers for inputs and also use them for outputs, then perhaps I can route the inputs into Plogue Bidule and then output them to MC.  MC may then see all for as one when output from Plogue Bidule.  However, I'd like to try get everything to work with Plogue Bidule if possible.

[mattkhan]

You need to sync the DACs to the same clock, not sure if they have the right connections for that.

[loddie]

Yes, each Motu Traveler has Wordclock IN and OUT ports so they are synced via wordclock. Motu Traveler 1 is set as the master using its internal clock. It sends a wordclock signal to the the other three DACs over 75 Ohm cables. They are setup as slaves. Its routed similarly to this:

[mattkhan]

do you have each device connected to the computer independently or are you connected to 1 device and the others are proxied through the master device? e.g. via adat. I would have thought the latter is what you want as then you just address them via the mixer of the master device. I'm not familiar with that interface though.

if you do need to create an aggregate device in windows then I think asio4all is the only option, at least that I'm aware of. 

[loddie]

My plan was to have just the master Motu Traveler connected to the computer via Firewire.  However, I recently learned my Mac Pro only has the bandwidth to support three Motus @48kHz on one Firewire bus.  I'm not sure if this limitation is also on PCs.  So for the Mac Pro (running MC on Windows 10), I'll have to add a second Firewire bus via a PCI slot. So there would be two Firewire cables, each to a pair of Motu Travelers.  As I don't have a second firewire bus, I'll just try to get up to 16 channels working now. Once I understand how to route everything, adding 16 more channels shouldn't be difficult.

Two Firewire cables may not be the best option long-term. The Motu Travelers do support ADAT, but I'll have to read up more on that. It is probably far more expensive to add a ADAT PCI card than a Firewire PCI card. 

Thanks for the ASIO4All tip.  I think you are correct it is the only option in Windows.

[loddie]

So I powered up to Motu Travelers connected via Firewire.  In MC, File>Open Live..., selected ASIO Line In, then configure ASIO Line-In..., in the Device drop-down menu, selected MOTU Audio ASIO/16 channels/channel offset 0, then OK.   

In Tools>Options>Audio Device, there are many WASAPI channel pair options for the MOTU, so I selected the only MOTU ASIO option:  MOTU Audio [ASIO]. 

ASIO stays at "Opening".... 

In Device Settings, I didn't put any offset.  Because I'm using 2 MOTU travelers, wouldn't I need two offsets? For example, if MOTU analog inputs are ordered channels 12345678, and I'm using channels 5678 on each MOTU to capture the audio from the receiver pre-outs, wouldn't there be an offset of 4 twice?    MOTU#1 4 OFFSET/5678 and MOTU#2 4 OFFSET/5678.   Hope this makes sense.

I wish MC had a more visual way of routing both inputs and outputs such as these:

[mattkhan]

ADAT is used in this context to expand the physical IO count, you shouldn't need another PCI card. It means you send x channels via firewire to the master audio device and then that audio device has additional DACs connected via ADAT and so you then configure the master device to send whichever channels you want down the ADAT connection to the slave audio device & then configure that slave audio device to route the ADAT input channels to the relevant physical output channels. This means that, as far as jriver is concerned, it is talking to a single audio device hence no need to mess around with aggregate software devices in windows.  This also avoids attempting to open 2 asio line in feeds (which would require 2 zones in jriver as it has no ability to mix multiple input feeds into a single zone).

I recommend you get just 1 device working reliably first btw and only then add on the subsequent devices. The fewer moving parts the better in this sort of situation.

[loddie]

Matt, thanks for the ADAT explanation. That makes sense. I'm also using Firewire to connect the slaves to the Master MOTU.  Unfortunately, the Fire wire limitation is the bandwidth of the Firewire between the Master and the computer (per MOTU user manual), so even if the slave Firewire cables are swapped ADAT, four MOTUs will still require two Firewire cables to the computer and two Firewire buses (Mac Pro only has one). 

Agreed, I'll try getting just one MOTU running first.  Long-term, it may be possible to route the four MOTUs into Plogue Bidule, then route via ASIO4ALL to MC.  I thinking from Plogue Bidule, MC may see the MOTUs as a single device.

I haven't set up audio on a PC before so hopefully I'll have time to experiment this week. 

Still struggling to understand how MC routes the inputs.  There are several explanations on the forum for outputs, but I have found any for inputs yet.  How do I determine which MC input corresponds with the physical port on the MOTU? In File>Open Live>Configure ASIO Line-In... you can only select the number of inputs and the offset.

[mattkhan]

Which device is it? I had a quick look at the manual for the mk1 and it says you can daisy chain 4 devices at 48kHz on a single FireWire port and each one has 8 outputs. Is yours a different device?

The input routing is very simple, it is just a contiguous block of channels. The offset is a 0 based index so if you open 2 channels with offset 16 then channels 17 and 18 from the device will appear as input channels 1 and 2 in jriver.

[loddie]

There are four MOTU Travelers, all MK1.  Yes, you are correct, a single bus Firewire will support up to 4 devices at 44.1 or 48 kHz.  I was thinking of future capability as the Pioneer SC-95 DAC will do up to 192kHz. 

The offset makes sense. I'll use the 4 analog 24bit inputs, which are listed as channels 5-8 in the manual.  So an offset of 4 would work.  Will try this evening.

[loddie]

OK, after reading Mojave's post in another thread, I thought it would be best to route all the Windows audio through JRiver to protect highs (tweeters & compression drivers).  Mojave posted this quote in this thread:  https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=102260.0

To send all system sounds through JRiver, you need to go to General > Features and check the WDM Driver. Reinstall JRiver or upgrade to latest version and install the WDM Driver. Go to Sounds in Windows Control Panel and set the WDM Driver as default. For the 24ao, it is best to use a sample sample rate for all content. Set JRiver to output 96 kHz and set the WDM Driver in the control panel to output 7.1 at 96 kHz.

After JRiver>Tools>Options>General>select "WDM driver" and relaunching JRiver, I don't see the WDM Driver in Windows>Control Panel>Sound>Playback (or other Sound tabs).  However, I do see JRiver MC 22 and it is listed as the default device.  Is this the same thing as Mojave suggested?  I uninstalled MC and reinstalled and after selected WDM driver in MC, got the same result. 

I don't think it is the same thing as Mojave instructs to "set the WDM driver in the control panel to output 7.1 at 96 kHz".  After looking at all the options for JRiver MC in the Control Panel, there are no options to select the sampling rate, although there is an option for 7.1.   

FWIW, running JRiver MC 22 in Windows 10.

[loddie]

In the same Mojave post, he also suggests:

You need to set your routing in the MOTU control panel first. You can even label the channels to make it easier. On the Device page > Computer Setup, you put how many channels you want to use. This makes it easier to manage in the Routing page.

So when I had the MOTUs running on the Mac there is such an option (see attached image).  However, when I launch the same app in Windows, there isn't an option to change channel names.  From MOTUs website, seems this is only a Mac OS X option: http://motu.com/techsupport/technotes/how-do-i-edit-channel-names-for-my-motu-audio-interface

Perhaps this step isn't necessary, just more convenient.