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Author Topic: Library Size  (Read 6312 times)

sKiZo

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Library Size
« on: March 11, 2017, 05:38:09 pm »

So, like ... exactly how large a library can JRiver handle before it starts to choke? I'm thinking over 5tb worth of FLAC ...
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~OHM~

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 06:27:00 pm »

I must be pushing 22tb with no issues and that's not counting movie files


edit: I under estimated it's over 35tb
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sKiZo

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 08:26:14 pm »

Good to know!

Long way away from 22tb here ... I'll keep working on it though. ;-}
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aviateur

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2017, 09:49:53 am »

I must be pushing 22tb with no issues and that's not counting movie files
edit: I under estimated it's over 35tb

TAO1857, Hi:

From a hardware control perspective, how do you manage your 35TB+ HDs? With an NAS?

Cheers,
Lawrence
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~OHM~

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2017, 01:56:31 pm »

TAO1857, Hi:

From a hardware control perspective, how do you manage your 35TB+ HDs? With an NAS?

Cheers,
Lawrence

A QNAP to be exact
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aviateur

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2017, 02:16:47 pm »

TAO1857:

I have only used MC for audio management. Several times in the past, I have considered managing video but each time I have been discouraged by the sheer magnitude of storage required and the time required to import 3,000+ sets (movies and TV). Perhaps, I will revisit this endeavour once again with your QNAP suggestion. What do you use for importing video? Do you convert to ISO files?

Cheers,
Lawrence
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glynor

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2017, 02:44:54 pm »

Just FYI, size of the media storage on disk (the 35TB or whatever) is effectively irrelevant from MC's perspective.

There are some performance limits determined by total asset counts (number of files imported into the Library), but you're unlikely to hit them because MC can handle huge quantities of assets even when running on a relatively modest computer.

My main Library at home has 390k files. I know plenty of people here have Libraries with well north of 700k files, and I'm pretty sure remember one guy a few years back who posted that he was actually having a performance issue with a > 2 million asset Library. Which then Matt fixed and the guy went away happy.

As the size of the total Library increases, search performance will decrease. So complex Smartlists and Views will "feel" the impact first. But there are a whole variety of ways to mitigate those issues, and... Unless you're way, way into "crazy" territory, it is nothing to worry about at all.
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blgentry

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2017, 04:23:20 pm »

I have only used MC for audio management. Several times in the past, I have considered managing video but each time I have been discouraged by the sheer magnitude of storage required and the time required to import 3,000+ sets (movies and TV). Perhaps, I will revisit this endeavour once again with your QNAP suggestion. What do you use for importing video? Do you convert to ISO files?

I have a medium sized video collection being managed by MC:  Around 200 movies and around 1000 episodes of TV shows.  Your collection is much larger, so the rip time is definitely a factor.  If you look at it like a job, then it becomes kind of burdensome.  I've taken the "a little at a time" approach.  As I want to see a movie or a TV show that I have on disk, I rip it.  I sometimes go grab a handful that I pick out of my collection and spend a few hours ripping and importing them.

Any time I buy something new on disk (DVD, BD, CD, etc) I almost immediately rip it and import it into MC.  This way all of my new stuff is in MC right away, while I continue to slowly work on the rest of my collection.  This also has the advantage of me only really having the stuff that I *LIKE* in MC.  I have numerous movies on DVD that I'll probably never watch again.  Such is the nature of having a collection.

As for ISOs:  In my opinion this is one of the worst formats you can use.  I wouldn't use it for anything but SACDs.  For all DVDs and BDs, I recommend MKV and specifically MakeMKV to do the rips.  MakeMKV is fast, easy to use, and free while it is in it's "beta period".  The Beta has been going on for several years now.  Or you can buy it to help out the developers.  It's similar in price to MC.

Even though your collection is larger than mine, 3000 movies and TV shows really isn't much at all from an MC perspective.  It can very easily handle all of that, and present it in a very organized way that allows you to find what you want with little effort.

I started with MC strictly for music and spent months doing that.  When I discovered that MC handled video metadata almost identically to music/audio data, I was floored.  Once you learn MC for audio, you have a wealth of knowledge that will help you organize your video collection too.

I now use MC for Video a LOT.  It's a fantastic way to manage, browse, search, and sort your collection.

Brian.
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~OHM~

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2017, 04:27:54 pm »

What glynor and Brian said........I do not use MC for my movie or tv collection! I prefer something else.
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sKiZo

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2017, 04:32:19 pm »

I've been using MakeMkv (freeware) to convert all my old DVD-r's to the hard drive storage. They run well in MC.

http://www.makemkv.com/download/

(And ya ... I get a kick out of the "Beta" thing every time I download an update ... for the last few years) <G>

I've also got a boat load of video on hard drives from my Maggie DVR - I converted that some time back to use an external dock/drive. That uses a proprietary format and it's difficult at best to convert those titles. I've been using a "placeholder" video and sidecars for those ... fairly painless and it gets the job done for tracking what I got and how to get to it anyway. Last step is exporting the library to excel and printing up a catalog.



You'll notice the "0" running length, and the file size of 793 bytes ... that's the MKV placeholder. The "DVR 030" in this case is the location of the file in my handy dandy excel catalog. I've since changed that to read "HDD000 DVR000" to point to multiple HDD drives using the Maggie's title numbers. Whatever works, eh.

Pretty simple really ...
- Copy and rename the generic sidecar to match the movie title.
- Modify the sidecar (text editor) changing the filename to match the movie title.
- Copy and rename the generic placemaker video to match the movie title.
- Store both in your working directory.

MC will think it's a new movie, do it's internet thang, and fill in all the additional tags. 

Oh. Here's links to my generic placeholder and sidecar files if anyone's interested ...

http://www.brainfartz.com/images/Stereo%20Stuff/htpc/mc-stuff/Generic.mkv

http://www.brainfartz.com/images/Stereo%20Stuff/htpc/mc-stuff/Generic%20Movie_mkv_JRSidecar.xml
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sKiZo

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2017, 04:50:03 pm »


I started with MC strictly for music and spent months doing that.  When I discovered that MC handled video metadata almost identically to music/audio data, I was floored.  Once you learn MC for audio, you have a wealth of knowledge that will help you organize your video collection too.

I'm set up with two installations of MC here ... one is strictly music, the other video. Each is optimized for the system it's hooked up to. Don't do the server thang as I've got dedicated equipment for each purpose and no portables I need to feed.
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aviateur

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2017, 09:39:48 pm »

Brian / sKiZo:

Thanks for the info. So here's the million dollar question (well, maybe a couple). Once movies are stored in MKV format on an HD which resides on a video server, how does one view the stored movie on the theatre room large screen display?

For my audio, I have a dedicated music server PC (Windows 7), which recognizes my DAC, a Linn Akurate DSM component, that is directly attached to my audio system. So, I am able to play music remotely on my audio system through my home network from the music server with MC.

Is there a similar scenario for video that I can establish? My display, a Vizio unit, does have network accessibility as a WiFi device (I believe) but I have not explored this capability? What other components need to be acquired to make MC-managed video viewable on my display?

Again, thanks for the great insight so far.

Cheers,
Lawrence
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sKiZo

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2017, 12:21:52 am »

I imagine every setup is a bit different.

I have a hard drive dock attached to the main computer here where all the MKV videos are stored. That computer has HDMI out which is attached to my Samsung flat screen in the other room with a 25 foot cable. Audio is routed from a breakout box on my Creative speakers to the AV receiver in that room. From there, it's just fire up MC, grab the mouse, and wander into the other room to click and watch a movie. Works pretty slick, as the mouse can see through walls.

I'm sure some would mutter about the length of the cable, but I haven't noticed any degradation here. Then again, all my videos are stored SD quality, which I prefer for movies anyway with my smallish (46") screen, which is plenty big for my country cottage. I'm sure it'd be an issue with one of those new fangled 4K OLED OMG! curved screens that are measured in acreage ... <G>
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~OHM~

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2017, 01:02:22 am »

4K OLED OMG! curved screens that are measured in acreage ... <G>

<G> ing
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blgentry

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2017, 06:51:46 am »

The generic answer is to install an MC based computer in your video room and control it via a "media center remote control".  This remote control looks like a standard TV remote, but it has a dongle that attaches to your PC that allows the remote to send signals to the PC and thus to MC on that PC.

Using Theater View (one of MC's display modes), you can then navigate your collection as you please.

I know people that use a wireless keyboard (with built in track pad) and use Standard View instead.  I'm not a fan of that, but having a keyboard has it's appeal so you can find things quickly.

There are ways to do playback with various set top boxes also.  I haven't explored very many of them.  The one I have personally tried, a WDTV, was pretty much unusable.  But that's just one isolated data point.

Good luck.

Brian.
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aviateur

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2017, 09:43:13 am »

Brian / sKiZo:

Thanks. Like others, I also started with Media Jukebox. Hmmm ... it looks like the MC video "rabbit hole" is longer, windier (is that a word?), and deeper than the MC audio "rabbit hole", which I have been down for the better part of five years. We all need hobbies, right? Well, it looks like a new video server for the theatre room is in my future. Brian, thanks also for the import pacing tips of small batches, new and favorites, as opposed to driving one's self insane with wrapping one's head around the monumental importing task of everything.

Cheers,
Lawrence
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timwtheov

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2017, 04:30:18 pm »

Getting video going with MC is definitely a winding rabbit hole. There are all kinds of factors, viz:

--the kind of video you watch (DVD quality, blu-ray quality, 3D, 4K, home movies)
--the capabilities of your computer in terms of processor speed and video card (for blu-ray, 3D, and 4K primarily, especially if you're going to use Red October HQ and any tweaks)
--where components are, i.e., is your computer next to your TV/Monitor? or in another room? or on another floor?


Here's my set-up for two different TVs:

1. The server PC is in our basement. It's a pretty new custom HP build, with an Nvidia GTX 970 card and a recent Intel i7 processor (don't recall the number now, and I'm not typing on that machine). This works well for basic blu-ray and probably 3D (though I don't have a 3D TV, so it's a moot point); not sure about 4K stuff. It's got a number of external HDDs attached with mkved blu-rays and some DVDs, too, along with a ton of audio files.

2. This PC is connected via a 25 foot HDMI cable to my Marantz AVR, which in turn is connected via another HDMI cable to my 42" LG TV (I have an Acer monitor hooked up too, when I just want to work on the computer and not have everything else on). I use ROHQ with some of the tweaks suggested by someone on here, though I forget his handle at the moment. With 5.1 sound, I'm pretty happy with everything: the picture quality is outstanding, the sound excellent (for my ears, though I don't have top-of-the-line speakers or anything), and MC makes browsing a breeze with my wireless keyboard and mouse. I typically just use standard view on this TV, though soon I'm going to get Theater View set up.

3. This PC is also connected to my WNDR4500 Netgear router, which in its day was one of the fastest, and this router is in turn connected by a 50 foot Cat6 cable, which goes across the whole basement and up through the floor to our living room media box, a Mede8er 600X3D (I'll second blgentry's comments about the WDTV Live: I had one of these originally, and they're problematic at best with a lot of video file formats in mkv containers over DLNA, VC1 blu-rays being a case in point; the Mede8er line, though twice as expensive, is much better all around). As I noted in the parenthesis, I use DLNA and stream via the Cat6 to the box either by using the box's own UPNP as the controller or using JRemote or Media Center itself as the controller (using MC via JRemote or MC by itself to "push" files to the Mede8er doesn't work with subtitles on mkved blu-rays, however; seems to be a limitation in the Mede8er's software). My dream would be to get rid of the box and just have an HDMI connection to both TVs, but I'm not sure a 50 foot long HDMI cable works for streaming and I'd have to drill a much bigger hole in the floor, which I don't really want to do.

4. Advantages/disadvantages to these: I've already intimated a few, but the boxes are nice because they're generally simple, so long as you wire them and don't try to use them wirelessly with HD content. The UPNP is sometimes a little flaky on my Mede8er, but overall it's simple, and the picture quality is really good. As I said, though, depending on which box you get, there can be issues with file formats. When you hook your PC up to your monitor directly, without any box mediation, you have to worry about PC specs, assuming again that you're streaming HD content. Slow computers and video cards can cause all kinds of problems with this. And ROHQ's MadVR, if you tweak it, has a learning curve as well, not to mention all the potential frame rate problems you can get with 23.96/23.98/24 frame rates on American 60hz TVs. But once you get it all set up, MC is fantastic for video playback--much better than using a box in my opinion.

5. You could likely use some kind of (wired, ideally) client/server MC configuration, too, but I haven't tried this for video.
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marsboer

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2017, 06:28:14 pm »

As jriver works very good for video purposes too, it is really no more difficult to get video playback working just as easy as audio, with one exception and that is that you have to be very careful to match RGB output levels for all your equipment (PC, Cable, Consoles, TV etc) to avoid grey blacks or black crush for some or all of your sources. Just enable refresh rate switching and set the correct RGB output from your computer, and that's pretty much it unless you are way above average interested.

Just put a small silent computer with HDMI that has Windows, jriver and any other software you would want (netflix, browser, spotify, tidal etc) by your home theater setup (or TV) and you are set. Almost all modern computers have HDMI, so chances are big that your dedicated audio jriver PC could just be plugged into a TV or projector, switch to theater view and now you have a HTPC! It's really not any more difficult than that just to get started.

5 to 10 years ago building a silent setup was hard, but today the market is crawling with silent to almost silent out-of-the-box builds, even those that aren't buildt for HTPC usage are mostly very silent because nothing really generates any heat today compared to those days.

Keep your media files on a wired NAS or file server in another room to avoid annoying noise issues just as you would for audio files. It's just that the NAS has to be much bigger. I almost exclusively create and store mkv blu-ray remuxes (ISOs is just way to much pain in the ass if you need something that just works and is interoperable) so in my case my file server has to be rather big (currently 144TB i think, but i have three double redundant arrays) but many get by just fine with sizes down to even less than 10TB, which today is just one drive (but I would always have redundancy to protect my time investment).

Going for a all-in-one HTPC with local storage for any kind of setup, even pure audio, is guaranteed to bite you in the ass as it will put so many uneccessary restrictions on something that really could be a very simple component. If you network your media files you can also place your HTPCs or streamers wherever you want, in any size or form, and not having to think about the media storage part.
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aviateur

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2017, 05:29:23 pm »

Marsboer / Timwtheov:

Thanks for the good advice, especially the info regarding HTPCs. It sounds fairly innocuous. I plan to select a pleasing slimline case for a Windows PC which has a good quality video card (HDMI OUT), audio card (audio OUT) and, which accesses my MKV video files, which are stored on an NAS. I then attach the two video OUT and audio OUT cables to my pre-amplifier, and voila!, remotely access the HTPC with a JRemote device. I'm looking forward to the new video approach.

Cheers,
Lawrence
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sKiZo

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2017, 05:50:16 pm »

Look into a low watt mini with an APU with integrated video and sound ...

Then disable the sound and go with an external DAC ... <G>

The APU is nice in that the power demand is extremely low ... 60 watts, and the fans barely tick over when they're running at all. Quiet is a GOOD THING in the listening room. The built in video is more than adequate for most anything you might want to throw at it. The sound really isn't all that bad, but doesn't hold a candle to most any outboard DAC.

PS ... I'd grown attached to my Bach Media HTPC case over time (mostly because it's just so gosh darn purty and fits my rack nicely) ...



... but felt the need to upgrade and get rid of the SIX fans it took to cool the thing. Was pleasantly surprised to find out one of the new ITX mini boards bolts right into the old ATX cases ... That's the board hiding under the fan ...



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aviateur

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2017, 06:13:39 pm »

sKiZo:

Thanks. The Bach case is pleasing and thanks for the low power consumption suggestion. Here's an amusing bit that made me smile. This is coming from a pilot's perspective. When I read your APU suggestion, initially, I had a completely different mental image with the requisite deafening sound for this reason. Typically, the APU (auxiliary power unit) on a jet aircraft is very functional in providing electrical power and conditioned bleed air to the aircraft but they tend to be a bit on the noisy side. It might put a damper on any plans to establish a serene mood in the theatre room. And then there's the jet fuel exhaust with which to deal. Also, I suspect my neighbors might object as well as they wonder 'what the hell' is going on inside that house and why are all the dogs in the neighborhood howling in choral fashion. Thanks for the laugh.

Cheers,
Lawrence
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sKiZo

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Re: Library Size
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2017, 09:33:36 pm »

Happy to be of service ... I have fond memories of the Space Shuttles APUs farting and popping on idle after landing ...

https://youtu.be/XNt-5dCeqWY

I can understand why some might find that a bit annoying in the listening room ... <G>

More on topic ... (sort of)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Unit
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