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[tij]

I understand that forced subtitles are shown even when subtitle "off" is chosen. This worked nicely so far until I recently rip one of my Bluray using MakeMKV. For that particular title when "off" subtitle is chosen, forced subtitle does not show (other rips no problem ... so far only this rip). And yes when forced subtitle is chosen, it does show properly.

Attached is MediaInfo of main Audio and Subtitles tracks. Is there something wrong with subtitles?

[tij]

Interestingly enough ... in MPC-HC ... when played that trouble rip with setting "Forced Subtitles (Auto)" ... forced subtitles don't show too (other rips no problem in MPC-HC)

I must be doing something wrong when ripping this title

[Hendrik]

If you rip forced subtitles into a separate forced track, you'll need to specifically select this track for playback, the "Off" choice will not do that for you. Although if you select a preferred subtitle language in the settings, I would think it would enable forced tracks by default, but I'm not 100% positive on that.

[astromo]

I've never had any noticeable issue ripping with MakeMKV, so I'm not getting the issue.

If I want to go in afterwards and set defaults and forces, then I put MKVtoolnix on the job. It's easy with the "Header Editor" function. You can flick various switches on and off like default/force to your heart's content, ad infinitum.

Regardless, doesn't MC keep the last subtitle option selection retained in the library, just the same way it does for the audio stream? So that the next time the file is played, these settings show up as the default regardless of whether an audio or subtitle track is forced or not.

[tij]

@Hendrik ... subtitles are embedded in MKV (not a separate files)

@astromo ... you are right MC does remember last play settings (which can be annoying sometimes as I like to watch movies without sub, but my wife likes it with)

Anywho ... finally figured it out ... MC subtitle operation seems to stem from LAV splitter ... which is set to display forced subtitles even if you put subtitle setting "off" (only way to completely turn off any subtitles is to set setting on "null")

This is where thing getting interesting. Following applies to MKV files and PGS subtitles only (as this is what I mostly have ... have not tested this with other formats).

By "force" MC/LAV means forced flags set INSIDE pgs subtitle stream. It does not matter if you set entire PGS subtitle stream "force" in MKV header (if that stream has no inside pgs force flags ... nothing is displayed when you turn subtitles "off")

In my case ... BluRay had forced subtitles in separate stream that only contained forced subtitles, but none of them were flagged as force in the stream itself (first time I encounter such title).

So thanks to some internet resources I got this sorted out

1. Rip with MakeMKV
2. Extract subtitle track from MKV using MKVtoolnix command line (6: is the track number I wanted)

mkvextract.exe tracks "i:\title00.mkv" 6:i:\title00.sup

3. use BDSup2Sub to set all items in that track to force flag
4. use MKVtoolnixGUI to remux edited subtitle track to original MKV (not forgetting to set force header and correct language for added track)

[Ashfall]

@Hendrik ... subtitles are embedded in MKV (not a separate files)

@astromo ... you are right MC does remember last play settings (which can be annoying sometimes as I like to watch movies without sub, but my wife likes it with)

Anywho ... finally figured it out ... MC subtitle operation seems to stem from LAV splitter ... which is set to display forced subtitles even if you put subtitle setting "off" (only way to completely turn off any subtitles is to set setting on "null")

This is where thing getting interesting. Following applies to MKV files and PGS subtitles only (as this is what I mostly have ... have not tested this with other formats).

By "force" MC/LAV means forced flags set INSIDE pgs subtitle stream. It does not matter if you set entire PGS subtitle stream "force" in MKV header (if that stream has no inside pgs force flags ... nothing is displayed when you turn subtitles "off")

In my case ... BluRay had forced subtitles in separate stream that only contained forced subtitles, but none of them were flagged as force in the stream itself (first time I encounter such title).

So thanks to some internet resources I got this sorted out

1. Rip with MakeMKV
2. Extract subtitle track from MKV using MKVtoolnix command line (6: is the track number I wanted)

mkvextract.exe tracks "i:\title00.mkv" 6:i:\title00.sup

3. use BDSup2Sub to set all items in that track to force flag
4. use MKVtoolnixGUI to remux edited subtitle track to original MKV (not forgetting to set force header and correct language for added track)

IME with MC, both types of forced flags work and display as expected, with subtitles set to off.  MKV with the subtitle stream set to forced, as observed in MKVToolNixGUI Header Editor, or individual subtitles individually marked as forced in a stream that is not forced.

I did have some problems a while back, but solved by going to Tools, Options, Video and setting "Default Subtitle Language" to "English" and "Default Audio Language" to "No Default Language".

Which movie is this?  I'd like to check it out.

[tij]

@Ashfall ... this is the first time for me too ... other titles worked as expected ... I could have ignored this ... it just pains me to see inconsistencies lol

The movie was Captain America Civil War (3D version) ... the force portion is where they speak Russian at beginning.

I tried doing "Default Subtitle Language" to "English" and "Default Audio Language" to "No Default Language" ... as I still had old file sitting oh HDD ... didn't work too (MKV forced header where set to "forced")

My guess as I said before ... Its in LAV splitter (as this behavior is also observed in MPC-HC) ... think LAV don't really care about MKV header ... instead it looks for forced flags inside subtitle stream itself (at least for PGS bluray subs) ... and if title was mastered incorrectly ... this happens

[Hendrik]

If you have a track flagged as "forced", then MC automatically plays that track. I just tried this just now and it worked as expected.
To ensure it functions properly, you should set a default subtitle and default audio language, so it knows your preferences (audio language is important because forced subtitles are selected to match your audio language).

[tij]

@Hendrik ... for PGS subtitles in MKV container ... must distinguish "flagged as forced" ... there are two cases ... (1) flagged as forced in MKV header for subtitle track ... (2) internal flags inside PGS, that flags each text as forced or not forced (so theoretically single PGS subtitle track can have both forced and normal subs mixed inside it)

In your case, it worked cause your forced PGS subtitles already contained force flags (what proper bluray should have)

With PGS subtitles when you select "off" subtitles ... think what happens ... MC picks sub that is marked as forced by container (in my case MKV) ... then pass it to LAV splitter telling it to display forced subs

LAV then goes through PGS subs and displays ONLY those that are internally flagged as forced inside PGS subtitles. So if none are, nothing is displayed even MKV head indicates its default (this is only for PGS ... haven't tried other formats)

In most cases (almost all), BluRay will have this right ... meaning forced flags are set properly inside PGS subtitles ... so when you rip it, this information is not loss. In my particular case .... just freak of nature ... BluRay did not mark force inside PGS subtitles.

Like I mentioned before ... this is not just MC ... MPC-HC does this as well.

And just to test ... I pick MKV rip which I know has no force subtitles (Brave) ... remux it while setting force flag on main English sub

When played in MPC-HC ... with "Forced Subtitles (Auto)" ... no sub where shown (even I marked one as forced) ... my guess that PGS stream has no force flag inside it

Did not try this on MC as test licensed ended today ... but pretty sure it will not display too

PS. Will buy license tonight ... after trial seems solid product ... hard to set up for sure ... but once done properly ... Theatre View is a pleasure (after they fix custom fanart)

[Hendrik]

You should not assume what "my case" is. I told you what to do to get your file to select the track - set a default audio language.

[tij]

i did as Ashfall suggested ... and as you suggested too ... did not work

after extracting PGS sub ... and running it through BDSup2Sub ... and setting all force flags inside there (none where set) ... it worked ... in both MC and MPC-HC

thats why i assume why it worked for you (it worked for me too for all other 50 titles i have ... except this one)

For most ppl this would be fine (so what MC doesnt show force subs for one title ... can choose it manually) ... i hope what i posted will help compulsive obsessive ppl like me to figure out why it did not work for that particular title

[Ashfall]

I just took a movie recently ripped with MakeMKV with a single English PGS subtitle stream with no forced subtitles and used MKVToolNixGUI header editor to set it to forced.  This one has never been played before, and on first play, the subtitles all forcefully displayed.  When I changed the forced flag to No, the subtitles no longer displayed, even with MC resuming where playback left off.

Another movie I have, "Mr. Bean's Holiday", has all the forced subs on a separate track like the one you are having trouble with.  Forced flag is set in the MKV header, but not on individual subtitles and MC plays it correctly, displaying the forced subs.

I think there might be something else being missed in your setup, or possibly a problem with that one movie.  At least you have a workaround.

[tij]

Just a quick question ... you tried to turn subtitle off? ... after turning subtitle off ... forced subs supposed to still show

I just used MKVToolNixGUI header editor and change header on subtitle to forced (on title which has no force subs). On first play it starts with forced sub. When I turn subtitles off, that forced sub disappear (which its not supposed to).

[Hendrik]

Just a quick question ... you tried to turn subtitle off? ... after turning subtitle off ... forced subs supposed to still show

I just used MKVToolNixGUI header editor and change header on subtitle to forced (on title which has no force subs). On first play it starts with forced sub. When I turn subtitles off, that forced sub disappear (which its not supposed to).

This doesn't work if they are in a separate track (its not supposed to). Its supposed to work nicely by default without you changing anything. As soon as you change anything, its up to you to select the right thing you want happening.
Why would you turn them off if its only playing forced subs in the first place, instead of just leaving them on?

The rationale for not somehow splicing the full "forced" track into the off setting is that without flags on each individual frame we can't really tell if someone just set the MKV header flags without too much thought, or whatever.
The default auto-selection should usually just work fine, and only if you change the streams during playback you might even run into this.

There is also a few technical reasons, because not all subtitles are Blu-ray PGS subtitles that even have such flags, but all subtitle streams in MKV can have a global header flag.

[Ashfall]

Just a quick question ... you tried to turn subtitle off? ... after turning subtitle off ... forced subs supposed to still show

I just used MKVToolNixGUI header editor and change header on subtitle to forced (on title which has no force subs). On first play it starts with forced sub. When I turn subtitles off, that forced sub disappear (which its not supposed to).

I did not turn subtitles off.  It starts up with the separate sub track already selected, because the MKV flag says forced.  Since it ONLY contains the subtitles that you want forced, this is the desired effect.  Yes, I can change it to Off, and then no subs are displayed at all.  Hendrik is also correct.

In summary:
If MKV flags are set to forced for a subtitle stream, MC will automatically select and play that stream, displaying all subtitles in it.  So it should only contain subtitles you want to be forced.  If you change it to Off, no subtitles will display, and I think MC will remember that selection the next time you play it.

If MKV flags are not set to forced, MC will still play subtitles that it finds inside a stream if the individual subtitles are marked to forced (which you can verify or modify with BDSuptoSub or SubtitleEdit).  Even when subtitles are set to Off, they will display.  If you set subtitles to Null, forced won't display.

With forced subtitles, most Blu-rays just flag individual subtitles as forced within the main subtitle stream.  Some will put the forced subtitles in a separate stream, with the stream itself marked as forced.  Some use a strange mix of the two, where the 2nd stream has all the subtitles, but only the forced ones are marked as forced.  Some will burn it into the video.

Before ripping a movie, check these lists.  But they aren't always up to date.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V8lwy44FwxR3h_3g9eI0OexOz7_4zeuhfCwD-QX97I4/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nAMVVnmk3vSaUiuFXcN7D0R69FHIP4tfIkTdThTkXEk/

I really, really love the way MC handles this.  It replicates the behavior of playing the actual disc.  I can't think of another media player that does this properly.

[tij]

Each of my rip is in one MKV file that includes all audio and subtitles (if I was not clear about this before, my apologies).

Forced subtitle behavior in question is simple ... while playing movie, if you set subtitle to "off" ... forced subtitle (if it exist) will still be forced on screen behind your back (as Ashfall indicated, this replicates playing actual disc)

This is not stupid actually. If my wife turns off subtitles because she generally do not like subtitles, MC will put force ones on screen behind her back (thus avoiding ruining her experience for such titles as Avatar ... she will just think those texts are part of the video stream).

Now for the answer to the question ... my computer and AV illiterate family members have different preferences when it comes to subtitles. Me and my wife do not like them. My children need them as their English is not so good. So this forced subtitle behavior is cool for me as it prevents my family from turning subtitles "off" and then criticizing my choice of MC.

I rechecked my rips to see if this works. And it did work for all my rips except one (as it turns out nothing to do with MC ... just badly mastered BluRay). Hence, start of this thread and in the end the way to fix it (cannot take credit for solution ... dig it out from net)

[RoderickGI]

If you change it to Off, no subtitles will display, and I think MC will remember that selection the next time you play it.

From memory, such a change is recorded in the [Playback Info] tag, at least for external Subtitles, and probably for internal PGS Subtitles. So if you select a subtitle stream, which then defines MC's behaviour, and want to get back to the automatic subtitle selection functionality, just edit the [Playback Info] tag to remove the Subtitle information. MC will then work as if subtitles had never been manually selected previously.

Don't just delete all the tag contents though, as it will have other information in there.