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Author Topic: Library field not updated after external TAG change if field is empty  (Read 1761 times)

RoyZion

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Hello,

few days ago I have noticed this problem that perhaps there was also previously

If a field tag is changed by an external application, deleting the value and making it empty, JRiver does not update the field in the library, showing the previous value.

For example if I remove the value of the field "genre", in a FLAC or MP3 file, changing it from "Rock" to blank, JRiver does not update the new value but keeps showing "Rock"
If it is changed to a different value (but not blank), JRiver correctly updates the new value.
Force the update of the library or use the option "Update library (from tags)" has no effect.
Obviously the options "Update Tags when file info changes" in general and "Update for external changes" in auto-import are both enable.

I tried a clean install too, or install it on another PC but the problem remains: blank fields are not updated.

is it a bug or I miss something?

Thanks for the help


JRiver version:23.0.84 and last previous
OS:Windows 10 (1709) and Windows 7

external tag editor tested to check the problem:
mp3tag 2.85
mediamonkey 4.1.19.1859

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MusicHawk

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Re: Library field not updated after external TAG change if field is empty
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 02:27:50 pm »

I ran into this with tags in image files, but from ancient times had it happen with audio files too. Wild guesses:

There are several "standards" (sets of fields and schemes) for storing metadata (fields/tags) within files. Different apps might use different fields for the same data, ignoring the other fields that might exist. Other apps might put the same data into multiple fields, or pull it out of multiple fields. Or not. (Deep water to explore all the variations, this is a simplified perspective.)

Possibly the app used to delete tag data blanked it from a field that MC does not use, while the same data still exists in a field that MC does use. (Major pain in photo/image apps/files.)

Or, maybe MC looks at multiple fields that different apps might use to store identical data, then MC grabs from the field that has data rather than a "twin" field that is blank, because usually, the user wants whatever tags exist.

As you  mention, there are tools that claim to show ALL fields/metadata in a file, useful to clear up tag mysteries, but sometimes experimentation is needed to determine cause and effect.


I don't have a recent audio file example, but I also use MC to store and manage images. Here is a recent image tags experience, if it helps: Beyond MC I need other apps for image editing/enhancing, such as Google Picasa. But, Picasa mangles any MC tags that have commas in the text (like Lastname, Firstname or City, State). If the image is resaved in Picasa (perhaps after straightening), any commas in tag text are treated as delimiters that create new unwanted tag values, which then show up in MC. Then, deleting those unwanted tag values in Picasa does not reliably delete them from MC, implying Picasa also stores the values in places MC ignores. And sometimes vice versa, deleting the unwanted tags in MC does not banish them from Picasa. (I'm now past that battle; not wanting to avoid Picasa's editing tools, my workaround is to not put commas in image tag text.) I can guess similar craziness could happen when multiple audio tools alter the same file.

I use a cool screensaver to show my photos to family as a random slideshow. I love this app because it allows showing tag text superimposed (and simply positioned and styled via CSS). As a long-time magazine editor, I think captions saying who-what-where-when make photos much more useful, interesting, and fun. The screensaver app will show any/all tag fields I desire, because the developer knows there are any possibilities. I've found that some apps see the field Caption as an alias for field Description, but some apps see them as separate fields, and often one is blank while the other has text. Some apps use yet another field name for similar info. Crazy!

The obvious safe path is to use only one tool to edit (tagging is editing) files, but not always feasible.
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Managing my media with JRiver since Media Jukebox 8 (maybe earlier), currently use Media Center for Audio/Music and Photos/Videos.
My career in media spans Radio, TV, Print, Photography, Music, Film, Online, Live, Advertising, as producer, director, writer, performer, editor, engineer, executive, owner. An exhausting but amazing ride.

marko

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Re: Library field not updated after external TAG change if field is empty
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 03:02:41 pm »

This one pops up every so often and "what is correct" depends on your viewpoint.

Way back, the common consensus was that MC should not remove data from the library when updating for external changes, so it won't delete existing data and replace it with nothing.

The answer, really, is to do your tag editing in MC. It really is very capable.

RoyZion

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Re: Library field not updated after external TAG change if field is empty
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 11:59:47 am »

Really thanks to both for your replies.

@MusicHawk
About Tag’s version it was one of the things I thought, but after some tests I've ruled out that could not be that the cause.

@marko
OK, so if I have understood correctly, it's not in a bug or a problem of my installation but that's how JRiver works.
I know it's great for tags editing too; just I don't like it much (only about tagging) cause the absence of a floating window. Any chance to have one in the future?

However you're both right when you write to use only one tag editor and that should be JRiver
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