Topic: Review : Intel NUC NUC7i5BNH & MC as an HTPC (Read 12047 times)

jmone · « **on:** July 13, 2018, 05:16:38 pm »

Now that I'm storing and playing UHD Blu-rays it was time to upgrade my trusty NUC as they are unable to play this content without stuttering due to the lack of H.265/HEVC GPU Decoding support. I like the concept of the small form factor PC's for dedicated HTPCs but there are normally compromises that can make them problematic for general HTPC duties. For reference I've previously done similar reviews for:
- Review : Intel NUC NUC6i5SYK & MC as an HTPC
- Review : Intel NUC DN2820 & MC as a Low Cost Media Player
- Review: Intel Compute Stick (2016 Version)
- Review: Clone of Intel Compute Stick (MeeGoPad T01) with MC as Media Player

I again looked for a suitable Intel NUC in the current NUC range from Intel. I settled on the NUC7i5BNH as it was on sale (it has been on the market for awhile now and newer models are due out shortly). It has a i5-7260U processor with the Iris Plus 640 GPU that supports hardware decoding of H.265/HEVC @ UHD resolutions and frame rates.

I've still got the same basic list of desirable for a good HTPC:
- Access and Quality Playback of all my media (Audio and Video)
- Smoothly run MC
- Low Power Usage
- Small and quiet unit
...but don't want to pay big $$$ ?

The NUC7i5BNH is no "cheapie", but I managed to pick them up a bit over US$300 for the bare bones (as they are towards the EOL) and to that you need to add Memory (say $75 for 8GB), and a Drive (say $50 for an 120GB M2 SDD). On top of that, you will need an OS (I grabbed an OEM Win10 Pro Lic for this). I could have also gone with the smaller BNK form factor but the BNH (which can also take a SSD Sata Drive) was cheaper duing the sales. This build is also a bit cheaper than my last NUC Build. But will it play my UHD content smoothly?

On the surface the specs look good for an HTPC with HDMI 2.0, IR, Wireless & Wired NW, Bluetooth. In particular, I was interested to see how it would go with the:
- noise from the fan cooling the i5 CPU and
- Iris™ Plus Graphics 640 handling both 4K/UHD content including high frame rate content (eg 4K/50p & 60p) and HDR.

Install:
- HW (5Min) : You remove 4 screws from the base to gain access and then just slot in the Memory and the S.2 drive. Easy
- Win 10 (30Mins) : Straight Forward from a USB Key
- Updating Drivers (45Mins) : Straight Forward. Did the usual Windows Updates post install and it just worked with all devices found, installed and working. Ran the Intel Driver Utility and it found a few more drivers to update as well.
- Initial MC Install (10Mins) : Straight Forward as usual (with my usual customisations for use as a Client from an MC Server)

Tweaks:
- BIOS / Multi Color Front Panel LED (Item 21 in the above Pic): This NUC has followed the (in my view) horrible trend of adding ultra bright blue LEDs. Great if you want a night light but not so good for an HTPC. Thankfully you can adjust the brightness / color / turn these off in the BIOS!
- madVR: I've not been able to tweak madVR to get UHD BD to playback without stuttering. The "Upload Queue" seems to be the issue. Normal BD's are fine.
- Custom Video Settings: If you use MC's display rate changer you may also need to add a 2sec delay to "Wait after change" else the audio render seems to get dropped on the change and MC will then complain that the Audio output is not working.

Preliminary Results:
- RO Std: Works nicely and can playback most content with a couple of exceptions. It can not keep up with UHD high frame rate content, either BD UHD @ 60fps (eg Billy Lynn) or high bit rate UHD @ 50fps video (H.264 @ 150mbps) without stuttering
- ROHQ (madVR): I've not found any combination that works with UHD Titles without massive frame drops. Std BD is fine and 1080p files are fine.
- Heat and Noise: Attached is an IR pic of the NUC under heavy load. It appears to run a bit cooler than the previous NUC and the fan noise is reasonable. You can certainly hear it if you are very close but it would not pose an issue in a normal HTPC listening environment.

Code: [Select]

=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 4.498 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 3.102 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 2.569 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 1.755 seconds
Score: 1593

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0.745 seconds
    Flood filling... 0.288 seconds
    Direct copying... 0.644 seconds
    Small renders... 1.032 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 1.921 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 1.224 seconds
Score: 3759

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0.150 seconds
    Populate database... 1.027 seconds
    Save database... 0.300 seconds
    Reload database... 0.076 seconds
    Search database... 1.307 seconds
    Sort database... 0.702 seconds
    Group database... 0.571 seconds
Score: 5202

JRMark (version 24.0.43 64 bit): 3518

Conclusion: Well so far, this NUC is a hit and miss device especially a miss if you want all the UHD + HDR + High Frame rate goodies. I've not been able to get all of this working without the video stuttering. It is a good enough upgrade from my old NUCs to not send them back as it will play normal UHD BD content in RO STD, but RO HQ (madVR) at these resolutions is not achievable so far. For me in particular, these NUCs feed older 1080p screens and with this setup then there is no issues playing any of my content as the NUC7 can output to 1080p screens just fine (where the older NUC could not). If you want hassle free 4K look elsewhere or wait to see what the new range of NUC8 are like.

Update: The recent addition of MadVR profiles (Tools--> Options--> Video-->Video Mode: Red October HQ / ...Load madVR quality preset = High Performance) makes UHD playback much more reliable. It's still not a UHD powerhouse but it will work on all but HFR/HBR UHD material

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2018, 01:48:51 am »

Thanks for all the info!

Manfred · « **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2018, 02:44:32 pm »

No surprise.

I have a gtx 960 (G3D Mark = 5805).
The Most demanding content I have is playing 29i blu ray and upscaling it to 4K resulting in ~ 60-70% gpu utilization. (Jinc for chroma upscaling, lancos for Image)

THe Intel Iris plus 640 has a G3D Mark = 1391. It is simple to weak.

A new gtx 1050 TI has a G3D Mark = 5920. The gtx 1030 has G3D Mark = 2244 comparable to a Ryzen APU.
If one want's go the 4K Route gtx 1050 Ti is on the save side excluding the AI algoritm's like NEEDI.

jmone · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2018, 03:57:59 pm »

Ahhh but you can usually tweak the madVR settings to approx that of the EVR, and with prior NUC generations this was the case. Now with the advent of UHD BD, we have a NUC that will play UHD BD in RO Std/EVR just fine (with one exception).... but I could not find a ROHQ/madVR combo that would work with any UHD BD and it is the madVR "Upload" queue that is the issue (not the "Rendering" queues).

Hendrik · « **Reply #4 on:** September 21, 2018, 07:06:48 am »

The next build of MC has two new options to use more efficient hardware decoding for low-end systems, and a performance-optimized madVR profile. With any luck that might actually be enough to run UHD on such a NUC.

jmone · « **Reply #5 on:** September 21, 2018, 04:39:58 pm »

Thanks. Looking forward to testing when back at home.

jmone · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2018, 03:43:27 am »

Close... so very close. Attached is a pic enabling the new options with the NUC. The Right hand screen shot is without any tinkering in madVR and it appears that madVR is doing HDR --> SDR on this one..... and the NUC just misses out on having enough grunt. If I change the HDR option from "let madVR decide" to "pass through HDR..." then the render times drop and it plays fine... but the HDR does not seem to kick in (well it will flash up if I bring up an OSD - but I need to check my setup some more). There NUC still has 0 ability to playback HFR/HBR material with madVR (eg Billy Lynn on UHD or my UHD AVC 50fps 150mbps home videos).

Hendrik · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2018, 04:11:47 am »

If one really wanted to use such a small device for HDR playback, one approach would be making a HDR -> SDR 3DLUT, which would cost barely anything at playback time, but does need manual generation and setup.

At the end of the day we're reaching the end of the GPU capabilities here though, especially in those mobile-class GPUs.

jmone · « **Reply #8 on:** September 23, 2018, 04:39:39 am »

These compromises work!

Hendrik · « **Reply #9 on:** September 23, 2018, 04:46:33 am »

Interesting that this has such a huge impact on Intel GPUs. Maybe I should integrate those into the high performance profile. You could also try if changing chroma scaling to Bilinear might actually be faster then DXVA. I'm not quite sure on that.

jmone · « **Reply #10 on:** September 23, 2018, 05:02:23 am »

Bilinear is already selected though the OSD shows DXVA.... While I'd still not recommend these NUC for UHD HDR etc (but happy to test), the changes you have made makes UHD HDR possbile! It opens up people using Laptops, NUCs etc as a viable option for more casual viewing. It really is pretty spectacular that such cheap devices can output perfectly good mainstream UHD HDR.

fitbrit · « **Reply #11 on:** October 26, 2018, 04:02:32 pm »

I've also found that checking the delay playback settings in the rendering setup of MadVR helps immensely when the CPU is almost there with UHD HDR. I was going to ask Hendrik why it's not checked as a default for the high performance (integrated graphics/low-end GPU) option.

Hendrik · « **Reply #12 on:** October 26, 2018, 04:13:00 pm »

The delay setting can be problematic. I would not recommend it as a baseline option.

fitbrit · « **Reply #13 on:** October 26, 2018, 04:15:25 pm »

Thanks, Hendrix. It’s been working well for me for 7th Gen Intel CPUs. Not a big deal for me to set it manually when experimenting with presets.

haggis999 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 27, 2018, 11:20:35 am »

Quote from: jmone on July 13, 2018, 05:16:38 pm

Conclusion: Well so far, this NUC is a hit and miss device especially a miss if you want all the UHD + HDR + High Frame rate goodies. I've not been able to get all of this working without the video stuttering. It is a good enough upgrade from my old NUCs to not send them back as it will play normal UHD BD content in RO STD, but RO HQ (madVR) at these resolutions is not achievable so far. For me in particular, these NUCs feed older 1080p screens and with this setup then there is no issues playing any of my content as the NUC7 can output to 1080p screens just fine (where the older NUC could not). If you want hassle free 4K look elsewhere or wait to see what the new range of NUC8 are like.

I have been wondering if a NUC would be a good solution for my first ever HTPC, so your review of a NUC7 was very useful. Have you any plans to run a similar test on one of the new NUC8 boxes?

jmone · « **Reply #15 on:** October 27, 2018, 02:58:30 pm »

Not at this stage... well depends what the sales look like.

I try to find the entry point that works well for the material and equipment I have at the time, and the NUC7 is really the entry point for UHD material now that Nevcairiel has made some madVR options. That said if I was buying today I would get a NUC8 as it should be better for UHD Matieral and MadVR but it would also depend on the price difference at the time.

haggis999 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 27, 2018, 04:25:39 pm »

Thanks for letting me know. I had a feeling that it wouldn't be a high priority so soon after getting a NUC7.

BTW, does the fan noise in your NUC7 not become an issue when transcoding 4K material using madVR?

jmone · « **Reply #17 on:** October 27, 2018, 04:53:20 pm »

I've never had any issues with fan noise on the NUCs. Also I'm now reconsidering getting a NUC8 to try as I can reuse the parts and sell the barebones.... May wait for a sale though.

haggis999 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 27, 2018, 05:16:44 pm »

Quote from: jmone on October 27, 2018, 04:53:20 pm

I've never had any issues with fan noise on the NUCs.

Is that because you have chosen less aggressive settings for madVR? If so, does madVR still make a worthwhile improvement to the video?

jmone · « **Reply #19 on:** October 27, 2018, 05:37:17 pm »

I did experiment with one of the earlier NUCs of turning the fan off all together but did not see the point as I don't hear the fan at all during normal movie volumes. To get madVR (RO HQ) working on these NUCs at all you need to have the some of the least aggressive settings. The new "Performance Profile" is based on these settings. The iGPU is just not powerful enough to run higher settings at all without dropping frames.

Hendrik · « **Reply #20 on:** October 28, 2018, 05:11:32 am »

Quote from: haggis999 on October 27, 2018, 05:16:44 pm

If so, does madVR still make a worthwhile improvement to the video?

There is a variety of things that madVR offers even on very conservative settings.
Among other things, madVR/ROHQ is required for HDR and 3D playback, and even at low settings it'll produce much more accurate color processing.

haggis999 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 28, 2018, 08:26:44 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on October 28, 2018, 05:11:32 am

There is a variety of things that madVR offers even on very conservative settings.
Among other things, madVR/ROHQ is required for HDR and 3D playback, and even at low settings it'll produce much more accurate color processing.

My current Windows 10 PC has a Xeon X5550 CPU and an Nvidia Quadro 2000 graphics card, which are not powerful enough for a serious use of madVR/ROHQ.

Based on your comments, I've just tried madVR out for the first time to see what effect it had on playback of a DVD on my Eizo CX240 monitor, whose native resolution is 1920 x 1200 (I have not yet bought a 4K television). I tried using both the 'High Performance (low-end/integrated GPU)' preset and the default 'Balanced' preset. Sadly, neither of these made any visible difference to the video compared to the normal Red October Standard setting.

Peter M · « **Reply #22 on:** April 11, 2019, 12:09:45 am »

Interesting review.

I have a new NUC7i5BNKP that I'm using for concert and multi-channel music rips, local streaming from a NAS drive, outputting through HDMI to a Marantz 7704 AV processor.

Unfortunately I'm struggling with audio dropouts and having tried every fix that I can find both here and on the Intel forums, I'm almost ready to give up.

No problems with the video using RO STD as it's all 1080p.

jmone · « **Reply #23 on:** April 11, 2019, 12:26:36 am »

Hi Peter, I can test some more on the weekend but I did not notice any Audio issues at all. I take it that the video is fine just not the audio? Also can you describe the drop-outs a bit more, eg are they regular, short, each second etc. What is your MC audio and DSP settings?
Thanks Nathan

Peter M · « **Reply #24 on:** April 11, 2019, 02:26:22 am »

Hi Nathan,

Will post more info tonight. Any assistance you can provide would be really, really appreciated.

BTW ... I see you're on AVS. So am I - same user name. I have a full theatre build thread there.

Cheers,
Peter

jmone · « **Reply #25 on:** April 11, 2019, 03:15:23 am »

Nice house build. What part of Sydney are you (I'm near Chatswood)? There are a few of us that catch up every now and again.

jmone · « **Reply #26 on:** April 11, 2019, 06:19:18 am »

I've had a better read of your AVS thread. The NUC is not for you. It is way under-powered for your setup. I'm sure we can get it to work, but with the great setup you have you really want an HTPC do do it justice. I'd suggest a SFF case, mid range CPU / Mem / SDD but with a good GPU like a 2070 so you can get some good madVR scaling going. I use such a setup for my main viewing, the NUC is for the "casual" TV's. Anyway, I'm sure we can get the NUC going as an example of what can be done but..... it's like driving a Ferrari on bicycle tyres with your setup!

Peter M · « **Reply #27 on:** April 11, 2019, 07:50:35 am »

I'm in Frenchs Forest so very close.

The NUC is intended to be used for concerts and multi-channel music only, as these get watched / listened to repeatedly and so that's all I rip to the NAS. For movies I still spin discs on a Sony 4K player. I would really like to get it sorted and then maybe a better HTPC down the road.

So what are the audio dropouts like ? - typically about a sec of nothing. I've been using Wish You Were Here ripped from Blu-ray for testing - 96 / 24 / 6ch. The first dropout always occurs at about 2:30 - 2:40 into the first track. After that I'm guessing but I think it's about 5 min intervals.

Tonight's testing -

1)
marantz - AVR (Intel Display Audio) WASAPI
Exclusive use - checked
Bitdepth = auto
Buffering = 100ms
DSP = nothing
No memory playback
Bitstreaming = none
Prebuffering = 6 secs

Audio Path: Direct
Input 96 / 24 / 6ch from FLAC
Changes - No changes
Output 96 / 24 padded / 6ch using WASAPI

First dropout at 2:38

2) Change only buffering to 250ms

Audio Path
Input 96 / 24 / 6ch from FLAC
Changes - No changes
Output 96 / 16 / 6ch using WASAPI (Not using enough bits to output the input directly)

First dropout at 2:32

3) Change only buffering to 500ms

Message - Playback could not be started using 96 / 24 / 6ch. This format would work 96 / 24 / 2ch.

4) Change only buffering to 50ms

Audio Path: Direct
Input 96 / 24 / 6ch from FLAC
Changes - No changes
Output 96 / 24 padded / 6ch using WASAPI

First dropout at 2:36

jmone · « **Reply #28 on:** April 11, 2019, 05:50:44 pm »

I have WYWH (Immersion) and it plays fine for me in as a full BD (title mode) and a FLAC conversion on the NUC. What process did you use to create the FLAC Tracks (eg MC Particles, then MC Convert to Audio? or another prog). Did you also use the Audio only tracks on the BD or the ones with the Video?

Anyway, I'm sure we will get it sorted on the weekend.

Peter M · « **Reply #29 on:** April 13, 2019, 02:00:00 am »

A huge shout out and many thanks to Nathan who has just left my place after successfully trouble shooting my problem.

So what could possibly have eluded me for many, many, many hours you may ask ??!!

It was the HDMI splitter that I use between the NUC and monitor / Marantz processor.

So after I finish giving myself a good kicking I need to find a splitter that works. I'll probably just have to bite the bullet and go HD Fury.

Cheers,
Peter

Peter M · « **Reply #30 on:** April 13, 2019, 02:42:37 am »

Hi Nathan,

I did some more checking of the HDMI splitter I'm using and it does have scaling built in. See here -

https://www.gofanco.com/hdmi-splitters-splitters/prophecy-4k-hdr-1x2-splitter-light-pro-hdrsplit2p-lt.html

Of course this doesn't change the fact that it doesn't work properly in my system !

Cheers,
Peter

jmone · « **Reply #31 on:** April 13, 2019, 02:54:17 am »

Hi Peter, My pleasure.....Glad we got it sorted and you have a Top Notch Home Theater setup, and the wine was great as well!

JimH · « **Reply #32 on:** April 13, 2019, 06:44:09 am »

Thanks, Nathan.

jmone · « **Reply #33 on:** April 13, 2019, 07:19:28 am »

No probs - if you want to check out Peter's build - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/1344547-another-downunder-theatre.html

It rivals commercial theatres. He built a house around it!

JimH · « **Reply #34 on:** April 13, 2019, 08:16:48 am »

Oh crap! What a space!

Pictures of the room itself:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/1344547-another-downunder-theatre-7.html#post21628904

Well done, Peter.

Amazing if it's driven by a NUC.

Peter M · « **Reply #35 on:** April 15, 2019, 10:52:55 pm »

Thanks Jim.

Not really driven by the NUC ! It's one of five sources into the Marantz 7704, then into two Xilica DSPs, four 4 channel Powersoft amps and a 9.5 Procella speaker system. I'm in the process of adding another Xilica and Powersoft, plus four overheads for Atmos.

All fun ... and I'm loving JRiver + JRemote !

Cheers,
Peter

Peter M · « **Reply #36 on:** April 15, 2019, 10:56:49 pm »

P.S. I see I've made it into the Weird and Wonderful thread ... bonza !!

jmone · « **Reply #37 on:** April 16, 2019, 01:12:14 am »

We like to keep a list of the "special" people! Did you get to try the Jaycar Splitter?

Peter M · « **Reply #38 on:** April 16, 2019, 07:58:45 pm »

Yeah ... no luck with the Jaycar one.

The HD Fury was delivered this morning so will try it tonight.

Peter M · « **Reply #39 on:** April 17, 2019, 07:15:56 pm »

Success !!!

HD Fury splitter works perfectly. Made it through the whole of WYWH without a single glitch !

jmone · « **Reply #40 on:** April 18, 2019, 12:47:21 am »

great stuff!

Peter M · « **Reply #41 on:** April 19, 2019, 10:12:14 pm »

Had some lip sync issues with my MKV rips.

Solved with the assistance of your brilliant tools !!

jmone · « **Reply #42 on:** April 20, 2019, 06:38:50 am »

Looks like you have it sorted!

nwboater · « **Reply #43 on:** April 20, 2019, 10:46:14 am »

Quote from: Peter M on April 19, 2019, 10:12:14 pm

Had some lip sync issues with my MKV rips.

Solved with the assistance of your brilliant tools !!

Would you please elaborate on what Brilliant jmone tools you used.

Thanks,
Rod

Peter M · « **Reply #44 on:** April 20, 2019, 06:15:04 pm »

Thread is here https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,112938.msg781082.html#msg781082

Wiki is here https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Lip_Sync

Cheers,
Peter

nwboater · « **Reply #45 on:** April 21, 2019, 09:02:38 am »

Quote from: Peter M on April 20, 2019, 06:15:04 pm

Thread is here https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,112938.msg781082.html#msg781082

Wiki is here https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Lip_Sync

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks very much Peter. That will be helpful.

Cheers,
Rod

wer · « **Reply #46 on:** July 10, 2019, 11:16:59 pm »

Jmone, these reviews are really great.

But it would be super helpful if when you review these NUCs and SFF PCs, you could also report on what audio formats are supported over HDMI. E.g. 16/44.1, 24/192, works but 24/96 does not. Does bitstreaming work or not,etc. What driver version was used...

Audio output is obviously a big part of using MC. Some reviews have a brief mention of audio, and others none at all.

Thanks a lot! Keep these coming!

jmone · « **Reply #47 on:** July 21, 2019, 09:01:43 pm »

Tested the NUC's Audio Output using the Windows Sound System Properties.

All combinations of Bitdepths, Sample Rates and Channel Counts worked just fine over HDMI.

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Author Topic: Review : Intel NUC NUC7i5BNH & MC as an HTPC (Read 12047 times)