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[kiwi]

Hello,

I am very interested in building a PC to put in my stereo system to play all my music and have stumbled upon the Hush Mini-ITX PC.  It is a super small PC that doesn't look exorbitantly expensive.  Its pluses seem to be its small size and NO FAN!!!  It has a PCI slot in it for the Digital Audio Labs CardDelux.  And all of my music is encoded as Monkey's Audio files.  For extra storage, I'd just use firewire drives, in the next room (through a hole in the wall).

Hush Mini-ITX PC
http://www.hushtechnologies.net/hushmini.htm

Info on the MB from Via
http://www.viavpsd.com/product/epia_m_spec.jsp?motherboardId=81

It has a 900MHz 1GHz processor on it.
http://www.via.com.tw/en/Products/eden.jsp
http://www.via.com.tw/en/viac3/c3E.jsp

Monkey's Audio
http://monkeysaudio.com/

I have a couple questions:
1)  Will this PC have enough processor power to play monkey's audio files through MediaCenter? {I will be running Windows XP Pro as it is stable.}

2)  Has anyone used the CardDelux sound card?  I've seen lots of reviews of it in places, but read very few personal reviews of it.  I'd like to use this in a Moderate HiFi system.  Sonic Frontiers Amps and Vantersteen Speakers and hoping that it will sound good.

3) Has anyone had any experience with Mini-ITX PCs?

4) What is the best method for getting sound out of MediaCenter?  Wave Output, Direct Sound, or ASIO?  {What is ASIO?  I know that it stands for Audio Stream In/Out, or somehting along those lines, but that doesn't really mean anything to me.}

5) Also, if anyone has any experiences doing this, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks,
ADam

[knickelfarz]

I'm using an ITX PC with EPIA ME6000 CPU for 6 month know (600MHz, without fan). It's running quite good and does everything you need for music, even the onboard sound is OK.

However, the system is too lame for sophisticated applications, especially for faster graphics and video usage. MPEG2 playback is OK (EPIA M uses hardware support for that) but for DivX it's too slow. Even the MediaJukebox / MediaCenter GUI reacts quite lame (expanding tree, show the HTML track info, scrolling ...).

Right now, I would buy a newer system with Nehemiah M10000 CPU, the performance is two times better...it's even fast enough for DivX playback. But it needs a fan ... so the HUSH System with heat pipe will be the best solution - and the most beautyfull :-)

For further information take at look at
http://www.mini-itx.com
http://www.mini-itx.com/reviews/nehemiah/

So long - Borishttp://

[kiwi]

Thanks, that's very helpful information.  I will contact Hush to see whether they plan on having a system with the Nehemiah M10000 CPU.  I think that right now they only use the M10000 CPU.  I wonder whether that will be fast enough for MC or MJ to be usable.

I'm getting this in place of getting a $1000 CD player, so I'm thinking that I'll get a really good sound card.  I figure it might not sound quite as good, but the convenience will be much better and I'll listen to more of my music.  I have 750 CDs or so, and it's hard to listen to them all.  THere are many CDs that I haven't listened to in a year or more.  This will facilitate that.  

Have you played back APE files on your machine?  Which audio player do you use?  What OS are you running?

I was thinking about running WinXP and going through and shutting down all of the services that it automatically starts.  I figure that will improve things.  I want it to be really stable.

The one thing that I'm a bit concerned with is whether or not the CPU will have problems with MC once all of my files are encoded.  It'll probably have 10,000 songs or so in its database.

The other system that I was thinking about using was a Shuttle XPC.  I've also found this system http://www.carillonusa.com/ which is more expensive, but could be very cool.  Particularly if the front pannel controls are useful.

Edit - WOW, that new CPU really performs a whole lot better.  I hope Hush makes a system with that motherboard.

[nila]

Hey
I've been considering doing this for a while now.
Have been looking into it a bit too.

The Mini-itx's are great looking and the size is great. The problem is the lack of processing power and space.

I want to set it up in my living room for divx/mp3/tv-series playback.

The itx's worried me a bit because of the lack of power and space.
My friend has an older one which worked ok for him and I was playing with it a bit while I was in Florida at his house.

I personally am leaning more towards these ones:

http://www.chillblast.com  - mini-systems

They have more space and a lot more power. They could handle most things and still look really good for say a living room.
Have a look and if u do a search on google there are some good reviews between this and some other small systems.

[knickelfarz]

Hello Kiwi,

Hush already started to produce systems with Nehemiah M10000 CPU. All EPIA-M ITX-Boards have a digital audio output (Koax), there are planed boards with optical output, too. Anyhow, you can expand the system with a soundcard...

I'm using Win2K and Media Jukebox, I have 12000 songs in the database (MP3) and it works 24h stable (a small web- and ftp-server and overnet are running allways, too). I think playback of APE Files is no problem.
Only the GUI is lame when you are putting your playlist together (on the ME6000 CPU !), the playback is NOT affected.

For the ripping I use my P4 System, it's connected to the ITX homeserver via LAN...

For the living room, I would not recommend the Shuttle like barebones that are build today, because they are all very noisy ... even when they use a heat pipe for CPU they still have fans for the power supply.

So long - Boris

[ShockValue]

I haven't used any of the ITX computers, but I have run media jukebox ( on my old machine at p3-450Mhz and 128MB ram (winxp).  The interface to MJ was sluggish, but it was able to play my 5000+ ape songs (High Compression) without a hitch.  These files were streamed from my fileserver in the basement over a 100Mb network.

Although the C3 chip is not as powerfull as an Intel, the extra 500Mhz should be more than enough to make up the difference.

I say go for it!

[Phil Lee]

The Chillblast mini PC's are for the most part Shuttle PC's. I have a Shuttle SN41G2 PC as my main PC. It has an AMD XP 2000+ with 512Mb RAM, an ATI 9500 Pro graphics card and an SB Audigy2 sound card in it. The system uses an NForce2 motherboard so has onboard sound and graphics too.  This means I can use the zones facility in MC9. MC9 runs with no problem whatsoever. The PC also handles my other interest, racing simulations, with no problem whatsoever.

One comment though, it isn't silent, although it is pretty quiet as PC's go these days.  It is louder than I would want in my living room but it is still a lot quieter than my previous PC case. The main fan speeds up depending on CPU load.

In general though I do think it made a fantastic system. You could even build one yourself. I got mine from www.overclock.co.uk

[Chris Shaw]

I agree, Phil. I've also got an SN41G2, but I'm using the onboard audio piped via S/PDIF to my 5.1 amp. The onboard graphics are plenty for video playback, and even some light gaming. It's not silent, but quiet enough that you don't hear it when music is playing.

It annoys me that my Toshiba laptop has the same spec, and only turns on its fan for the the most strenuous activities. Why has no-one made a mini-desktop which is basically a laptop but without the added expense of a screen?

[knickelfarz]

Hello,

if you would like to have optical outputs on your ITX-Board, it can be done with a little bit soldering...
http://www.itx-corner.de/p6/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=13
sorry, it links to a german page, but the wiring scheme is easy to understand...

I would again recommend the following link:
http://www.mini-itx.com/reviews/nehemiah/
There is a detailed performance test for the Nehemiah M10000 ITX board (english page :-) )

So long - Boris

[kiwi]

Knickelfarz said : Hush already started to produce systems with Nehemiah M10000 CPU. All EPIA-M ITX-Boards have a digital audio output (Koax), there are planed boards with optical output, too. Anyhow, you can expand the system with a soundcard...

I am planning on doing that.  The on board audio is probably not up to the level that I would like it to be.

Ah, the answer to my question... "read the fine print"
http://www.hushtechnologies.net/news_detail2.cfm?ID=33
I can't tell whether or not the price for the M10000 system (i.e. regular system + 30) is correct, hopefully someone will get back to me with that.

I've read through that review.  It looks like that Nehemiah might have enough power to handle my needs.  {I wish that they would have included some regular PC scores, just so that one could get a ballpark figure for the system's speed.}

Thanks ShockValue for your input.  That's very helpful.  How sluggish is the interface?  i.e. I'm hoping to use this as my main listening device, and if the interface is really sluggish it could become very frustrating.

cjdshaw said:  It annoys me that my Toshiba laptop has the same spec, and only turns on its fan for the the most strenuous activities. Why has no-one made a mini-desktop which is basically a laptop but without the added expense of a screen?

dittto, makes me want to get a cheap laptop and just rip it's guts out.  Too bad I can't use PCI cards in it.


I've used the shuttle xpcs before and while they are very quiet, I would have to agree with the comment that the fan makes enough noise to cause an annoyance when listening to classical music.

Since this is only going to be for audio (my stereo is in a different room than my TV and entertainment system), if the new Nehemiah M10000 system is quick enough to handle the GUI and keep it from being too sluggish, while playing the APE files without problems, then it will probably meet my needs.


Eventually, I'll create a system for my home theater, in which case, I'll probably go with something like the Shuttle XPC.  When I do that, I'll have to find out whether the Shuttle's digital has a pass through option.  Many consumer level sound cards seem to resample music before sending it out.  

Looked at the chillblast site, and they seem to be regular PCs.

I have found some "quiet" PCs:

Carillon Audio PC
http://www.carillonusa.com/

ArmSystems Stealth PC
http://reseller.armsystems.com/reseller/ezconfig2/index.cfm

However, these all have fans.

Boris, how much memory do you have in your system?

[kiwi]

Hey,

I found another review of the Nehemiah Core.
http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2003q2/epia-m10000/index.x?pg=1

Some quick things from the review:

From 3DNow! to SSE - Though the Ezra C3 core supported AMD's 3DNow! SIMD instructions, VIA has switched teams with Nehemiah and dropped 3DNow! support in favor of Intel's SSE instructions. SSE2 isn't supported, but the 180-degree turn in instruction support is interesting to note.

A full-speed FPU - The Ezra core scaled all the way up to 1GHz, but its "half-pumped" floating point unit never made it beyond 500MHz. With Nehemiah, VIA has the C3's FPU running at full processor speed, which should dramatically improve the new core's performance in graphics-intensive applications, as in other FPU-intensive tasks.

While previous EPIA systems have had performance problems with encoded video playback, our testing shows that the EPIA-M10000 is definitely "fast enough" for multimedia playback and basic office applications. Faster systems are definitely available for the same price or even less, but the EPIA-M10000 gets the job done.

Looks very interesting.  I think that I'm going to look into grabbing myself a Hush.

[knickelfarz]

Hello Kiwi,

I have 512 MB inside my ITX PC, but only because it was left from another PC ... I would say that 256 MB really should be enough for HTPC needs...

[kiwi]

I wonder how long it would take to Rip CDs with this device.  I can just see times when it is much more convenient to just pop a CD in and have it rip it.  

I'm going to be ripping to Monkey's Audio only, and it seems that MA takes far less resources than does ripping to MP3.

kiwi

[Matt]

Those VIA chips are really slow.

My fanless Celeron 566 outran my 900 Mhz VIA.  Both were silent.

If you want to do DVD or visualizations, you'll want more power.  You'd be amazed at how quiet a good CPU fan is -- inaudible at about 4 feet away.

Here's a great site with lots of info:

http://www.silentpcreview.com

[PhatPhreddy]

I have long been pointing to the Hush machines but I dont know of anyone yet thats actually bought one...

I need more than just an audio PC (WMP9 1080p takes a 3 Ghz CPU !!) so I worked on a normal ATX and use parts from exoticPC.com to put in a 'silent' PSU and watercooling kit... I need a waterblock for the fan on the GFX card though... Its never quiet enough though and thats why the hush machines being fanless are interesting...

I have read a few shootouts that put the RME cards as sounding a tad better musically than the CAL delux but this and the LynxTWO are all considered very good..

I would say you could play APE files fine at that speed processor with sensible sized playlists (I just listen to albums really) but others may argue what sensible sized defines...

[knickelfarz]

If you got the money for an ultimate silent solution you may take a look at the "SID FutureClient" from SignumData:
http://www.signumdata.de/english/index_eng.htm
It's build similar to the Hush ITX but with a P4 inside...

[kiwi]

Those VIA chips are really slow.

My fanless Celeron 566 outran my 900 Mhz VIA.  Both were silent.

If you want to do DVD or visualizations, you'll want more power.  You'd be amazed at how quiet a good CPU fan is -- inaudible at about 4 feet away.

Here's a great site with lots of info:

http://www.silentpcreview.com

How does the 900 Mhz VIA handle just doing audio?  I don't really care about the visualizations or DVD (though, this board supposedly has a DVD decoder in it, so it can handle DVD w/o a problem.)   Mainly what I am concerned about it how well it will play APEs and whether the user interface will be responsive.  Did you run MC or MJ on the VIA 900?

I wish that I'd paid more attention to the shuttle's noise when I was around it.  I had too many other systems making noise to notice.  It was being used with a HP PC Hosted logic analyzer that had two fans that howled.

I guess the question is which system to experiment with.  Do I get the quiet system that might not have enough power? Or the powerful system that might not be quiet enough.  I wish that the shuttles had an external brick power supply that didn't need a fan.  Part of me says, if I go with the shuttle, I have a useful PC, even if it's too noisy.  If I get the hush, if it's not powerful enough, then I don't really know what I'd do with it.  Make it a very nice looking door stop?

PhatPhreddy said: I have read a few shootouts that put the RME cards as sounding a tad better musically than the CAL delux but this and the LynxTWO are all considered very good..  

Do you happen to remember where you found those shootouts?  I haven't found a lot on the RME card.  The LynxTWO seems to run about $800 or so, so it's probably a bit much.  But the REM board seems to run around $350, so it's right in the ball park.

knickelfarz said: If you got the money for an ultimate silent solution you may take a look at the "SID FutureClient" from SignumData:
http://www.signumdata.de/english/index_eng.htm
It's build similar to the Hush ITX but with a P4 inside...

Yeah, I've looked at those before.  They look very nice, except for their price    

[knickelfarz]

For the next 12 month (maybe more...) I see only two solutions for the living room:

- You need a "full power" machine with high end graphic and 300W power consumption. To get this silent you have to spent a lot money for special cooling, special cases and so on. It's quite experimental, maybe in the end you have to build an insulated closet for it anyway...

- You can go without highspeed 3D graphics and the focus is on HTPC applications. As the rewies show, a system like the Hush with Nehemiah CPU can handle this all and is still expandable for special needs...

I guess most people who are looking for a HTPC already own a PC for work or gaming. So if there are sophisticated jobs to do with high speed (like ripping 300 CDs...) this can be done on this machine. In the near future, a HTPC will always be some sort of compromise ... but it has to fit in the living room

[kiwi]

For the next 12 month (maybe more...) I see only two solutions for the living room:

- You need a "full power" machine with high end graphic and 300W power consumption. To get this silent you have to spent a lot money for special cooling, special cases and so on. It's quite experimental, maybe in the end you have to build an insulated closet for it anyway...

- You can go without highspeed 3D graphics and the focus is on HTPC applications. As the rewies show, a system like the Hush with Nehemiah CPU can handle this all and is still expandable for special needs...

I guess most people who are looking for a HTPC already own a PC for work or gaming. So if there are sophisticated jobs to do with high speed (like ripping 300 CDs...) this can be done on this machine. In the near future, a HTPC will always be some sort of compromise ... but it has to fit in the living room

Yeah, that's the concolusion that I am quickly coming to.  I looked over in the "Lets Get Integrated" thread http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=MediaCenter;action=display;num=1053797148
and have been thinking about the possibility of using such a device to output digitally, and then take that output and put it into a $4-500 DAC.  

However, I guess that I'm not sure about the quality of those digital outputs.  And also, the interfaces generally leave a lot to be desired.  One of the big advantages I see to using a PC as the driving component is easy access to all of one's music.  In the case of these network devices, you have to navigate blind through your music (or maybe in the dark, if they have a small lcd display.)  I guess that answers my question about whether or not to use one of these devices.  

Now to figure out which way to compromise.  I don't plan on really doing any visualizations, just displaying track information, so I hope that I could get away with using the VIA system.  Just as long as with the new Neheniah core, its gui is quick enough.  

I guess the only other question is how quickly one of these VIA devices can Rip a CD to MA.  I can do major ripping on a different machine, however, for the ocasional CD, it would be nice to just pop it into the Hush and rip it without too much trouble.  I don't need it to do it in lighting time, but in <20minutes would be acceptable.  I'm guessing that playing music while doing that, would probably be too much for the Hush.  

-kiwi

[knickelfarz]

My ITX PC with EPIA ME6000 CPU needs under 50% of CPU usage to play music with MC. A board with Nehemiah CPU should use less than 25% ... I guess that the remaining 75% should be enough for ripping a CD in less than 15 minutes (depending on the CD drive also...).

Generally: How fast is the compression of monkey audio compared, for example, to lame or frauenhofer codecs?

[kiwi]

Compared to LAME, it seems to be much much quicker.  In fact, it often doesn't differ greatly from the extraction to a WAV file in EAC.

I have been getting about a cumulative speed of 6.5-7x when ripping, so CDs are taking 6-10 minutes to rip to MA.

Adam