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[ASenna1]

Is there a DLNA equivalent to "play silence at startup for hardware synchronization" to mask start/stop pops when playing DSF/DFF files via DLNA? I am utilizing "Bitstream DSD" in MC and rendering with Volumio on a RasPi3 that's feeding my Denon PMA-2500NE.

[bob]

Is there a DLNA equivalent to "play silence at startup for hardware synchronization" to mask start/stop pops when playing DSF/DFF files via DLNA? I am utilizing "Bitstream DSD" in MC and rendering with Volumio on a RasPi3 that's feeding my Denon PMA-2500NE.

The setting for bitstreaming over DLNA in MC is in the DLNA server configuration on MC, not in the local audio settings.
The file is served as-is if you haven't chosen the DoPE enable under the Advanced DLNA server settings. If you have enabled DoPE it's encapsulated in a PCM container (not converted).
At any rate this seems to be more likely an issue between the Voumio renderer and the Denon.

[ASenna1]

I know where the bitstreaming setting is and I clearly stated I'm using it. Also, there is not a separate DoPE setting as the Bitstream DSD setting clearly states "requires DoPE compliant renderer", which my Denon PMA-2500NE is.  This is definitely not an issue of my Volumio DNLA renderer either, which works seamlessly at all data rates.

Please search the forum for "Play a little silence on DoP stop".

Denon PMA-2500NE > USB-B DSD Audio Streaming (DoP): DSD2.8 / DSD5.6 <=11.2

https://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/hifi/amplifier/pma2500ne

[RoderickGI]

I would guess what Bob means is that both the "Play silence at startup for hardware synchronization" and "Play a little silence on DoP stop" are available for local playback, but are not available for DLNA playback. They are both local audio settings only.

Also, when clicks and pops are observed when using DoP, it is usually the local DAC device, which is the equivalent of the DLNA renderer, that is causing the issue. It may be correctable on the renderer.

I'm also a little confused because I'm no expert in the type of setup you are using, but does Volumio on the RasPi3 do the decoding, and then the Denon acts as the DAC, or is Volumio on the RasPi3 Bitstreaming to the Denon so that it does all the DSD Stream processing? I ask because maybe the issue is in that relationship, as Bob suggested.

[ASenna1]

The way I would describe it is my RasPi/Volumio combo is acting as a DLNA client only, passing the JRiver bitstream data from my network to the USB input of my Denon PMA-2500NE, which is then decoding/sampling/restoring the bitstream data to it's original sample rates. The Volumio/RasPi combo is not used as a Bitstream decoder. All digital processing is handled internally by the Denon.

Denon PMA-2500NE Specs > USB-B DSD Audio Streaming (DoP): DSD2.8 / DSD5.6 <=11.

Note: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88441.0

[RoderickGI]

I think I understand now, but just to confirm;

You do have a MC Server acting as a DLNA server in the mix, correct? Such that the full process is;

MC Server acting as DLNA Server {DoP DSF/DFF output}  > MC on RasPi DLNA Client + Volumio {USB Bitesteamed DSF/DFF output} > Denon PMA-2500NE {Acting as decoder and DAC} > Analogue speakers.

So you aren't running MC on the RasPi as a DLNA Client, but are using Volumio software instead.

Is that correct?

If so you should be looking for the equivalent to the  "Play silence at startup for hardware synchronization" and "Play a little silence on DoP stop" functions in the Volumio software I think.

[bob]

I think I understand now, but just to confirm;

You do have a MC Server acting as a DLNA server in the mix, correct? Such that the full process is;

MC Server acting as DLNA Server {DoP DSF/DFF output}  > MC on RasPi DLNA Client + Volumio {USB Bitesteamed DSF/DFF output} > Denon PMA-2500NE {Acting as decoder and DAC} > Analogue speakers.

So you aren't running MC on the RasPi as a DLNA Client, but are using Volumio software instead.

Is that correct?

If so you should be looking for the equivalent to the  "Play silence at startup for hardware synchronization" and "Play a little silence on DoP stop" functions in the Volumio software I think.

That would be correct.
Using the same setup but to a iFi DSD DAC with Volumio, I can report that it plays DSD material flawlessly.

The issue is between Volumio and the Denon.

[ASenna1]

To simplify, yes, I run Volumio on a RasPi as a DNLA Client and it works invisibly. Now, if one believes "the issue is between Volumio and the Denon", which I have my doubts about, then how does one explain this thread?
 
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88441.0

For example > "This loud click with (native) DSD output has been an issue for me since the very earliest builds of MC19 - just like the memory playback issues I've been complaining about"

No RasPi>Volumio>Denon PMA-2500NE combos in this 2014 neighborhood.

And BTW, the pops only occur at the beginning of play or end of play.  This is not an issue of random noise in, let's say, a cut or the middle of an album

[RoderickGI]

There are lots of threads about pops and clicks, and quite a few referring to DSD, but that doesn't mean it is the case here.

MC is only acting as the audio transport, via DLNA, while Volumio does the buffering (or should be) and delivers the digital stream to your Denon for decoding and playback, as it is the renderer.

Can you imagine how large a disturbance MC would have to be making in the digital audio stream for Volumio not to be able to buffer it out? It would have to be huge. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but either it would be for a very specific set of circumstances, which you may fall into, or everyone would be hearing the problem.

As you are using DLNA, and this could well be the DLNA Client capabilities of Volumio at issue, could I suggest that you download and run AndrewFG's Digital Media Renderer Analyser and test the capabilities and settings of Volumio?

[ASenna1]

"There are lots of threads about pops and clicks, and quite a few referring to DSD, but that doesn't mean it is the case here."

Yes there are, it sure doesn't mean it doesn't and, in regards to the analyzer, yes I have. Nothing in the analyzer points to any problem with Volumio.  I believe I saw something somewhere that there's no guarantee that a DSD will start or end at a PCM digital zero level, which causes a pop/noise at the transition. If that's the case, then that's where the problem is. It is not Volumio's fault, not RasPi's fault and definitely not my PMA-2500's fault.

Note: "PCM silence instead of DSD silence"

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,88295.msg605256.html#msg605256

[RoderickGI]

Well, I will leave it to Bob to respond to that as I don't know how silence is implemented. There doesn't seem to have been any resolution of posts by Marcos Jose.

I would suggest moving your server to the Denon, to test without DLNA and Volumio. But that may not be possible.

[bob]

There is a difference between PCM and DSD silence but that's ONLY applicable at the renderer. MC as a RENDERER does do the DSD silence.

DLNA is file based. There are no streams or output devices involved. When you are serving a DSD file without transcoding you are simply serving a file. No different than downloading a new build of firefox for example.

MC as a DLNA server simply serves your file AS IS to volumio. MC should NOT be altering that file before passing it to volumio.

[ASenna1]

So after all this, it seems it is possible the transition from PCM silence to DSD silence could create an audible event.

[RoderickGI]

Try this:

Turn off
"Options > Media Network > Add or configure DLNA server... > {select your DLNA server} > Advanced > Bitstream DSD (requires DoP compliant renderer)"
so that MC isn't encapsulating your DSD files in a PCM container, but is sending the original file.

Also, set
"Options > Media Network > Add or configure DLNA server... > {select your DLNA server} > Audio > Mode" to "Original"
so that there is no conversion on MC at all before being transmitted.

Now MC should be just serving the DSD file via DLNA to the Volumio DLNA Client.

If Volumio is capable of receiving and playing that DSD file, how does it go? Any pops at Start/Stop?

If so, then set Volumio to play a little silence at the start and stop of playback, as required. Fixed?


Basically, you are telling MC to encapsulate your DSD file in PCM prior to sending the resulting file to Volumio. Hence, you are possibly observing a transition from PCM to DSD. Stop telling MC to encapsulate your DSD file in PCM, and then Volumio should receive the file, and it will be responsible for all further buffering and processing, along with the Denon.

No, you don't need Bitstreaming from MC to Volumio, as Volumio will be handling all the buffering, timing, and if necessary Bitsreaming to the Denon, if you set that up. But you probably don't need to do that, as the Denon is handling all the decoding/sampling/restoring the file to its original sample rates and timings.


Disclaimer: Of course, I could be completely wrong. I don't have the equipment to check this, and even then I would have to listen for the pops. But I feel there has been a bit of a disconnect in this thread, and perhaps we can get past that. It would be worth reading back through the thread again, as I have, to find the new meaning is some of the posts.

[ASenna1]

Thanks very much for your suggestion, but my Denon PMA-2500NE uses DoP to natively play SACDs and everything is handled by the Denon.  I do not believe Volumio is doing any processing.  That said, I went ahead and disabled Bitstream DSD as a test and tried playing a SACD.  It would not play through my Denon.

Below is a good explanation of DoP and it's exactly how my Deon utilizes the format.

https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/support/what-is-dop-dsd-over-pcm/

Thanks again for your help!