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Author Topic: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone  (Read 15483 times)

blgentry

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Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« on: February 19, 2016, 07:54:40 am »

I'm helping a friend set up multi-zone audio in his new house.  He has almost zero budget, so inexpensive is important.  Spending $150 would probably be close to the upper limit.

I'm assuming that I need a DAC with multiple outputs to do reliable, in-sync, audio playback in multiple zones at the same time?  The sync doesn't have to be perfect, but having it drift all over the place would be bad.  We're also considering using various network devices to play to different zones, but that seems WAY more problematic that just having a multi-channel external DAC.

Thoughts and experiences with this are VERY appreciated!

Thanks,

Brian.
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mwillems

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2016, 08:42:55 am »

I'm helping a friend set up multi-zone audio in his new house.  He has almost zero budget, so inexpensive is important.  Spending $150 would probably be close to the upper limit.

I'm assuming that I need a DAC with multiple outputs to do reliable, in-sync, audio playback in multiple zones at the same time?  The sync doesn't have to be perfect, but having it drift all over the place would be bad.  We're also considering using various network devices to play to different zones, but that seems WAY more problematic that just having a multi-channel external DAC.

Thoughts and experiences with this are VERY appreciated!

Thanks,

Brian.

How many total channels does he need, what OS is he running, and what's his proposed amplification solution?  If he needs 8 or fewer channels (i.e. four stereo pairs) he's in luck as the market is packed full of 7.1 external USB interfaces these days, some of which are really shockingly cheap.  

I've found the Asus U7 to be moderately well behaved with excellent noise and distortion specs for a good price (~$80), if you don't need much by way of Linux support (works great on windows, medium support on Linux) http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-Xonar-U7-Sound-Card/dp/B00E7QA9E0

Creative makes a competing box at about the same price.

I've also recently been testing even cheaper solutions (~$30) like these:

http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Adapter-External-Digital-ICUSBAUDIO7D/dp/B002LM0U2S/ref=pd_sim_147_3?ie=UTF8&dpID=41TzfdiXSpL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0VCCEYNC4CNC4CZC11GP
http://www.amazon.com/Sewell-Direct-External-Channel-SW-29545/dp/B004Y0ERRO/ref=pd_sim_147_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=31jDtEltMGL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0FMMFCPN5PWSP4RY33N5

They and a few other OEMs all use the same CMedia chpisets (used in older Asus products too), but I would advise caution in pursuing the startech or sewell type boxes and keep the return slip handy.  The hardware has seemed fine in the ones I've tested, but the driver support varies widely on Windows (although the handful I've tested worked fine on Linux).  When they work, the sound/distortion specs seem fine (better than onboard audio, and free from obvious audible distortion), but they won't be winning any awards for audio clarity.  Sewell makes an updated "soundbox pro" that until recently retailed at around $50, which was the best of the cheapo multichannel boxes I tested, but it seems to be out of stock many places and selling for much more (~$65) on Sewelldirect now: https://sewelldirect.com/soundbox-pro-usb-sound-card . At that price point the Asus is a much better deal for only a little more.

Obviously the choices open up quite a bit as the dollars go up.

Balanced outputs are nice for long cable runs between the DAC and the amps at the far end, but the cheapest multichannel interface I know of with balanced outputs is this one, and the reviews are not complimentary: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-FCA610-Firepower-Midi-Interface/dp/B00D3QX2X0 . Less relevant if he plans to drive all zones from the same amp collocated with the DAC, but if that's the case, make sure to buy large gauge speaker wire  ;)

Lastly, if he doesn't already have an amp, the cheapest overall solution might be to buy a budget 7.1 receiver and use the DAC in the receiver via HDMI.  Disregard if he's already got his amp.  If he's looking for cheap amplifciation, it's hard to beat some of the little Class D tripath amps floating around (some of which are $20 or so per stero pair).
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blgentry

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 08:55:06 am »

I think he wants a total of 3 zones.  If he wants 4 zones, still no problem, plus we are probably going to do a video/audio zone via HDMI.  So a 7.1 channel DAC is probably more than he needs.

The price on the ASUS seems perfect to me.  Add in a few 3.5mm to RCA female adapters and we should be all set.  I'm anticipating runs of up to 80 - 100 feet.  With shielded RCAs I don't *think* that will be a problem.  I've never had any attenuation of signal in RCAs before, though this would be about double the longest run I've never made.  Hopefully balanced is not necessary, because that would probably make the project take another direction:  It's just too much work (money) to unbalance it at the other end, etc.

Is this ASUS a good DAC?  I don't mean in an audiophile sense, but rather in a basic "hifi sense".  Does it have nearly zero noise?  Does it sound "just fine" ?  We definitely don't want any weirdness, noise, buggy drivers, or anything like that.  The budget can be extended past the price of the ASUS to insure hassle-free hifi performance.

Oh, the target computer:  I believe it will be running Windows 7, 8, or 10.  It would be nice if the DAC was also Mac compatible for future use, but most DACs seem to be easily plug and play (I hate that term!) with OS X, so that's probably a non-issue.

Thanks for your response.  :)

Brian.
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mwillems

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 09:16:37 am »

I think he wants a total of 3 zones.  If he wants 4 zones, still no problem, plus we are probably going to do a video/audio zone via HDMI.  So a 7.1 channel DAC is probably more than he needs.

The price on the ASUS seems perfect to me.  Add in a few 3.5mm to RCA female adapters and we should be all set.  I'm anticipating runs of up to 80 - 100 feet.  With shielded RCAs I don't *think* that will be a problem.  I've never had any attenuation of signal in RCAs before, though this would be about double the longest run I've never made.  Hopefully balanced is not necessary, because that would probably make the project take another direction:  It's just too much work (money) to unbalance it at the other end, etc.

Ideally you want an amp with a balanced input, so no need to unbalance, but I know what you mean (amps with balanced inputs aren't always in wide supply, although behringer makes some nice and cheap ones).  I haven't done cable runs that long, but with good shielded cables you should be able to deal with much of the mischief. Lord help you if you have a ground loop though  ;)

Quote
Is this ASUS a good DAC?  I don't mean in an audiophile sense, but rather in a basic "hifi sense".  Does it have nearly zero noise?  Does it sound "just fine" ?  We definitely don't want any weirdness, noise, buggy drivers, or anything like that.  The budget can be extended past the price of the ASUS to insure hassle-free hifi performance.

Here's what I will say: it's very, very good for the price, and I can't think of another multichannel sound card (internal or external) at that price range that I would recommend in front of it (for Windows use).  Some of Asus internal cards have allegedly better specs, but do not actually measure better in practice IME.  No device has "zero noise," but the rated THD+N is 0.0006% (i.e. -104dB).  You can see a tear down and independent measurements here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/268678-asus-xonar-u7-usb-soundcard-review.html, which show a higher noise profile in practice (which is universally the case).  My own measurements were closer to Asus's than the teardown's, but I wasn't using a loopback/rightmark methodology, so that's to be expected (rightmark measurements tend to exaggerate noise because they necessarily add the input noise to the output noise).

I have never heard audible noise or flakiness from the U7 in a windows environment, and I have recommended it to budget conscious friends.  But if you really want rock solid performance, I would recommend looking into the more expensive pro audio interfaces. Matt and Hendrik both run Focusrite 18i20's, which are highly regarded.  I run a Steinberg UR824 and have never heard so much as a peep from it in years of operation.  Both those interfaces are significantly more expensive though (although they happily have balanced outputs  ;D )  

The best thing to do if in doubt about the U7 is to buy one from a place with a generous return policy and test and see what you think in practice.  Amazon tends to have a fairly generous return policy as long as you move quickly.

DISCLAIMER: Most of U7 testing was with Windows 7 and 8.1; I haven't done extensive testing in windows 10 (although it appears to work fine based on a quick test, I haven't done daily driver use in Windows 10, so can't comment firsthand on long-term stability).

Quote
Oh, the target computer:  I believe it will be running Windows 7, 8, or 10.  It would be nice if the DAC was also Mac compatible for future use, but most DACs seem to be easily plug and play (I hate that term!) with OS X, so that's probably a non-issue.

FYI do not count on an interface being Mac capable if it does not advertise itself that way.  Especially when you get into multi-channel interfaces support on non-windows platforms gets increasingly spotty, or requires manufacturer drivers.  Especially insidious is that a friend of mine has run into devices that appear to "just work" when plugged into Macs, but only work in reduced capacity (not all channels available, etc.).  So if future Mac use is part of your build out, make sure the device actually supports OSX.

Of note, my understanding is that the base model Asus U7 doesn't fully work with OSX (plug and play, but many features not addressable), but the "echelon edition" of the U7 does work?  I don't know as I don't use Macs, but I'd advise investigating thoroughly.  So caveat emptor!

EDIT: from the amazon comment threads it appears that the U7 is not officially supported on OSX and certain functions won't work, but it's not clear exactly what (other than the volume knob).  It sounds like the OSX support is about like the Linux support, which is not that suprising given that it's the base UAC2 mode that the thing is likely running in on both OSX and Linux.


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Arindelle

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2016, 10:20:50 am »

I still don't follow what your friend plans on using on the playback side of things. So I'm not going to go into anything there and MWillems far surpasses my expertise on the matter

so a big FWIW :D

I would be very reluctant about using cable of the lengths you are talking about that are not balanced. A number of years ago now, when linking zones became possible in JRiver I had tried to motivate my brother in law to set up a system in his large home. He needed 6 zones. After doing a demo at his place he said eh didn't want to bother with any monkeying around with software, and then I tried to get him to go with a good network "box" that Linn was proposing (his budget was NOT limited) at the time. But no he decided on getting a "professional" in and spent a great deal of money on an "analogue" solution. The only control he had by zone was volume that cost him another fortune by reinstalling his wall switches with a controller.

A part from the crazy idea he had of putting in crapping speakers in ceilings and things (ok, for some quality is not that important), but when all was set and done, the cable passed through his kitchen, where he has mega-huge appliances. Any zone after that room picked up a very distinct hum which I find really unlistenable unless the volume is cranked up. He insists its fine ... but I'm not talking about audiophile barely noticeable noise. Had nothing to do with dacs or his amp

My friends that do a lot of sound work for big venues immediately said, "balanced" is the only way to go.  Now my brother in laws house is big so there is a lot of cable, running analogue volume pots near light switches probably doesn't help much either. So I'm sure you can't compare the two.

So just thought I'd put out the story ... be careful. its a lot of work cabling things and best case you are going to lose a db every so often. So I'd really do some research on what to avoid using coax like that.
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mojave

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 01:36:40 pm »

The price on the ASUS seems perfect to me.  Add in a few 3.5mm to RCA female adapters and we should be all set.  I'm anticipating runs of up to 80 - 100 feet.  With shielded RCAs I don't *think* that will be a problem.  I've never had any attenuation of signal in RCAs before, though this would be about double the longest run I've never made.  Hopefully balanced is not necessary, because that would probably make the project take another direction:  It's just too much work (money) to unbalance it at the other end, etc.
You are better putting the amp(s) by the DAC and using speaker cable for the longer runs.

I go with the pro audio methodology of using mono output for each zone. This reduces the number of channels required and amplification. Nobody is ever in the stereo sweet spot for two channels anyway.

A friend recently installed Monoprice in-ceiling speakers throughout his whole house and is very pleased - especially for the price.
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blgentry

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2016, 02:59:28 pm »

Here's what I will say: it's very, very good for the price, and I can't think of another multichannel sound card (internal or external) at that price range that I would recommend in front of it (for Windows use).

Thanks for this and all the other thoughts that go with it.  This seems like a totally reasonable multi-channel DAC to use for this purpose.  In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think we will only need a total of 4 channels (2 stereo pairs).  ..and they probably don't even have to be linked at any time, given the hardware plans I'm formulating *after* the preamp level stuff.

Brian.
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blgentry

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2016, 03:13:13 pm »

I still don't follow what your friend plans on using on the playback side of things.

You mean further down the playback chain, after the preamp level analog signals?  Right now, with Beer Budget, he is trying to use one or two receivers he has.  I think he might have some spare speakers, or he may opt for some cheap in ceiling speaker.  Presuming we use the receiver(s), I'll be looking for at least 2 zones of audio.  I'm considering a speaker level switch with volume controls and A/B inputs.  Which is actually pretty darned cool for it's price point:

http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=109&cp_id=10903&cs_id=1090307&p_id=8232&seq=1&format=2

Thanks for your story and ideas about balanced versus unbalanced.  In a previous life I did pro audio setups pretty frequently, so I've worked with balanced a lot.  I've just never run preamp level signal cables in a house.  I'm considering recommending "baluns" to transmit stereo audio over CAT5 for any long runs we might have.

http://www.nilesaudio.com/product.php?prodID=C5-A2&recordID=CAT-5%20Baluns&categoryID=Cat-5%20Baluns&prdcdID=FG01281
http://muxlab.com/products/category/audio-video/stereo-hi-fi-balun#!

Brian.
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blgentry

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2016, 03:15:13 pm »

You are better putting the amp(s) by the DAC and using speaker cable for the longer runs.

I go with the pro audio methodology of using mono output for each zone. This reduces the number of channels required and amplification. Nobody is ever in the stereo sweet spot for two channels anyway.

A friend recently installed Monoprice in-ceiling speakers throughout his whole house and is very pleased - especially for the price.

I'll think about all 3 of these.  I think it's going to be more practical to do long RCA runs (perhaps with baluns as in my previous post), but I'm not 100% sure.  I'll discuss it with my friend.  Mono is definitely a possibility.  Just an extra couple of Y adapters per pair of channels.

Brian.
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mojave

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2016, 03:34:48 pm »

I assume he will be using JRiver. If he is, one thing I really like about the EOS Android app is that you can link/unlink zones on the fly, easily adjust the volume in any zone, and set a zone as the current "volume controlled" zone. One can use the $49 Amazon Fire to run EOS. No need for the Monoprice speaker selector.

Mono isn't a couple of Y adapters per pair of channels. It is a couple of filters in JRiver's PEQ.  ;)

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blgentry

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2016, 03:47:03 pm »

I assume he will be using JRiver. If he is, one thing I really like about the EOS Android app is that you can link/unlink zones on the fly, easily adjust the volume in any zone, and set a zone as the current "volume controlled" zone. One can use the $49 Amazon Fire to run EOS. No need for the Monoprice speaker selector.

Hmm. He's planning on using JRiver MC and JRemote on IOS devices.  So I don't think EOS will be possible with his setup.  I've read about it having zone link/unlink, which seems neat.

Software for volume and linking seems too un-sure for me.  What do I mean by this?  Examples:
1.  When you're outside, will you have wifi reception?  Where will the tablet be?  Does volume react quickly, or does it ramp slowly?
2.  How many times have you seen software fail to control volume and default to full volume?  I've seen it over and over and over again for the last 20 years.
3.  Software zone link seems to stutter when linking, unlinking, starting, stopping, and forced track change.  It's not big deal, but it's not "polished".  JRiver zone link has adjustable link timing, which seems to work.  But I'm not sure how it holds up long term.  Does it drift?

I guess I just don't trust software volume without a hardware override.  ...and a zone 2 on a receiver usually doesn't have an easily accessible hardware volume control.  It's usually on a remote, which has to be pointed at the receiver to work, not to mention finding the remote first.

Please don't take this as negativity.  I'm explaining why I'm motivated by a hardware based solution.  I very much appreciate your experience and opinions on these matters.

Quote
Mono isn't a couple of Y adapters per pair of channels. It is a couple of filters in JRiver's PEQ.  ;)

Ha!  True.  There's me thinking about hardware again.  :)

Brian.
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blgentry

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2016, 08:34:57 am »

The ASUS Xonair X5 seems very similar to the X7.  Is there any reason to avoid this card, if my friend doesn't need as many channels?

http://amzn.com/B00MI8IDRE

What about the Creative X-Fi 5.1?

http://amzn.com/B0044DEDCA

I'm also reconsidering the whole architecture after the DAC.   I think I'll start another thread about that.

Brian.
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mwillems

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2016, 11:07:37 am »

The ASUS Xonair X5 seems very similar to the X7.  Is there any reason to avoid this card, if my friend doesn't need as many channels?

http://amzn.com/B00MI8IDRE

What about the Creative X-Fi 5.1?

http://amzn.com/B0044DEDCA

I'm also reconsidering the whole architecture after the DAC.   I think I'll start another thread about that.

Brian.

I haven't tested either card; the amazon reviews suggest there may be some QC issues with U5 that aren't present with the u7, but as I said, I have no in person experience.  It sounds like mac support for the u5 is even more limited than the u7.
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blgentry

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 11:22:13 am »

I haven't tested either card; the amazon reviews suggest there may be some QC issues with U5 that aren't present with the u7, but as I said, I have no in person experience.  It sounds like mac support for the u5 is even more limited than the u7.

Oh ok. I thought you had used the U7.  Regarding the Mac compatibility:  That's probably more ME talking than my friend.  He has several PCs, an older mac laptop, and a couple of ipads.  I know he's a mac fan, but a PC will probably be just fine for this purpose.  Plus MC for Windows has Theater View!

I just read another thread here from a guy that runs TWO U5s for a total of 9 zones, which is pretty incredible.  Now I need to figure out the source switching aspect of all of this, as per my new thread.

Thanks again.  I appreciate all of the feedback.

Brian.
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mwillems

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2016, 11:24:37 am »

Oh ok. I thought you had used the U7. 

I wasn't clear, I do have a U7 and have used it and measured it as noted above; I've never tested the U5 or the Creative card you linked; those were the "two" I meant.
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blgentry

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2016, 12:12:36 pm »

^ AH ha. Got it. Thanks for the clarification.  :)  So the U7 comes highly recommended by someone who's used it with MC for the intended purpose.  Yay!

Brian.
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astropuppy

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2016, 08:41:42 am »

Not sure if I'm following the requirements completely; But, I am cheaper then cheap.

For audio only zones:
In our garage and den; I run a small T-amp($30~) with Chomecast audio($35) into bookshelf speakers. 
Family room has a Chromecast(audio) plugged into the soundbar. Soundbar has an integrated amp.
For casual listening, In the living room I have a Chromecast plugged into my main amp.

I cast audio from JRiver using gizmo on an android phone. Works and sync's great.

That said, 99% of the time Pandora gets cast directly to the chromecast devices for casual listening.

It's cheap and is very family friendly. No one part cost more then $50.

Disclaimer: I was heavy into Squeezebox before the plug was pulled; leading to never wanting to own another piece of proprietary home electronics again. Chromecast audio's are $35 I can live with throwing them away. $400 squeezebox's where another story, which is how I ended up with JRiver for $50.



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blgentry

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2016, 08:50:37 am »

Chromcast is a non-starter because MC does not support it directly.  Going through Gizmo is not desired and would present a problem if the Gizmo device was not in range of the Chromecast.

This project is still in the works.  I'll report back when we have made more progress.  The house this is going into is still in the process of being purchased.  Gotta get that done first!  :)

Brian.
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memobug

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2019, 12:43:43 pm »

...

I've also recently been testing even cheaper solutions (~$30) like these:

http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Adapter-External-Digital-ICUSBAUDIO7D/dp/B002LM0U2S/ref=pd_sim_147_3?ie=UTF8&dpID=41TzfdiXSpL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0VCCEYNC4CNC4CZC11GP...

mwillems, can you give me an idea how you configured the Startech card for multi-channel output?  I've poked around and with the program read the help on zones, and the wiki guide, but the pertinent entry, "Map Stereo Pairs of a Single Multichannel Soundcard" is stubbed out.

Thanks so much.
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mwillems

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Re: Recommended Inexpensive USB DAC for Multi-Zone
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2019, 04:02:10 pm »

It's been a few years, but I think the way I did it at the time was to set each zone to WASAPI (non-exclusive) mode or direct sound.  Then I set the output format to stereo in a 7.1 container for each zone.  Then use the parametric EQ to route the stereo pair to the appropriate channels.  For example, zone 1 would have no PEQ entry, zone 2 would have a PEQ entry to move "Left" to "Center" and "Right" to "Sub", zone 3 would move "Left" to "SL", "Right" to "SR", and so on.

Does that make sense?
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