Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[PaoloF]

I would like to use MC25, on my laptop, as DLNA server to control a Pro-Ject Stream Box s2 ultra, as DLNA renderer connect to my DAC.
Everything works if, from Media Network > Configure DLNA servers, I configure Audiophile 24-bit DAC > Audio in "Mode: Original", that is:
- if I play a PCM flac file (at any sample rate) --> the dac receives a PCM data flow (at the sample rate of the starting file);
- if I send a DSD64 / DSD128 file --> the rendere receives the DSD64 / DSD128 data flow
and the dac reproduces them regularly.

Instead I can't set the server to change the sample rate, or Output format from PCM to DSD:

- if I set
  - Audio > Mode: Specified output format and
  - Audio > Format: PCM 16-bit / PCM 24-bit / PCM L16 no header / PCM L24 no header
=> MC25 reports "There was a problem controlling the selected DLNA ..."

- if I set
   - Audio > Format: MP3 medium / high bandwith
   - Audio> Advanced> ... DSP Studio ... no changes
=> the reproduction works unchanged

if  I set
   - Audio > Format: MP3 medium / high bandwith
   - Audio> Advanced> ... DSP Studio ... change from PCM 44.1 to 88.2
=> the renderer receives a data flow PCM 48.0  ? Why?

- if  I set Output encoding "DSD in DoP format"
=> the renderer receives a data flow PCM 48.0 again ?

What am I doing wrong?

I await instructions, thank you

Paolo Ferroni

[PaoloF]

No reply?

It's possible to know what the various options for DLNA server configuration mean?

In particular I would like to know what they do and how:
1 - that are the differences between "Generic DLNA" and "Audiophile 24-bit DAC"?

2 - if in those servers I set 'Audio > Mode: Specified Format', or 'Audio > Mode: Specified Format only when necessary', what do the various options for parameter "Format"?

3 - If I take a PCM 44.1kHz file and I wont that DLNA server converts output format in DSD and trasmets it in DoP format to the renderer, what parameters I shoud set?

I think I understood some responses, by doing tests,  but not all.
I set:
 - Audiophile 24-bit DAC
    - Audio > Mode: Specified Format only when necessary
    - Audio > Format: ?    (maybe it has no ifluence)
    - Audio > Advanced > Audio Format to convert :   (I don't chek: flac )
    - Audio > Advanced > ... DSP Studio ... > Output encoding: DSD in DoP format

but the render (Pro-Ject Stream Box s2 ultra connected to North Star Supremo dac) continues to receive a PCM file 44.1kHz !!!
Why ?

Is there anyone who can explain it to me?

Thanks
Paolo Ferroni

[RoderickGI]

Do you really want to convert PCM (i.e. FLAC) files to DSD and send them to your DLNA Renderer via DoP?
Is the sound quality so much better, even though you are doing a conversion in the process?
Is there some other reason you want to only send DSD DoP to your Renderer, such as track transitions, your Renderer doesn't switch between PCM and DSD DoP reliably, or something else?
EDIT: Maybe for the reason documented here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,121168.0.html

If there is no good reason, consider just playing the original format, as you described in the first post, and enjoy the music!



1. The pre-defined "Generic DLNA" and "Audiophile 24-bit DAC" DLNA server definitions are just templates. You can add either one, then rename it and change settings to make them do whatever you want. Compare the settings and you will see this.

2. I don't have a DoP capable DLNA Renderer or do what you are trying to do, but as you want to use DSD DoP, which requires access to the DSP Studio under DLNA settings, you need to choose a format. If your source files are rips from a CD to FLAC, then either "PCM L16 No Header" or "PCM 16-bit" would make most sense, as the source would be 44.1KHz 16 bit PCM. There would be less, or no conversion in that case. If any expert wants to comment, cool.

If you only want to convert certain file formats to DSD DoP, then use the "Specified output format only when necessary" setting, and then list the file types that you want to convert. FLAC if these are files creating by ripping CDs to the FLAC format.

3. Parameters in DSP Studio? Just select the output encoding as "DSD in DoP format". Or "2xDSD in DoP format" or "4xDSD in DoP format", depending what your Renderer supports.

Note that if you are doing the above, MC will decode the FLAC files to PCM, hopefully without any conversion, and then encode them as DSD in DoP. Potentially a double conversion, and in some people's opinion, not worth it. Hence my questions at the beginning of this post.

- if I set
  - Audio > Mode: Specified output format and
  - Audio > Format: PCM 16-bit / PCM 24-bit / PCM L16 no header / PCM L24 no header
=> MC25 reports "There was a problem controlling the selected DLNA ..."

Implies that your Renderer doesn't support the formats you selected. You should run AndrewFG's Digital Media Renderer Analyser to find out what you Renderer supports. Search for forum user AndrewFG and find a link to his DRMA in his signature.
However, that error could also indicate other DLNA issues, because PCM L16 No Header should always work.

- if I set
   - Audio > Format: MP3 medium / high bandwith
   - Audio> Advanced> ... DSP Studio ... no changes
=> the reproduction works unchanged

Good. So your Renderer can play MP3 files, and the connection and control works.

if  I set
   - Audio > Format: MP3 medium / high bandwith
   - Audio> Advanced> ... DSP Studio ... change from PCM 44.1 to 88.2
=> the renderer receives a data flow PCM 48.0  ? Why?

MPEG-1 Audio Layer III (MP3) only supports up to a 48KHz Sample Rate. So naturally, MC can't output an MP3 with an 88.2KHz Sample Rate. See "Supported sampling rates" here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3

- if  I set Output encoding "DSD in DoP format"
=> the renderer receives a data flow PCM 48.0 again ?

Same as above, if you left the output format on one of the MP3 settings. MC is first converting to MP3 format, and it can only output 48KHz files. Why that isn't then converted to DSD DoP I don't know. But change the output format to  "PCM L16 No Header" and see if MC will convert to DSD DoP then.


By the way, the manuals for the "Pro-Ject Stream Box s2 ultra" only say that the unit supports up to DSD256. It doesn't say if it supports DSD DoP (DSD over PCM) or Native DSD. You may wish to check with Pro-ject what it actually supports, and test with AndrewFGs DRMA, as above. You could also just try to output Native DSD. When you successfully played DSD64 and DSD128 files, did you output them as DSD DoP or Native? It sounds like it was Native. In which case, select one of the Native DSD formats in DSP Studio.

[AndrewFG]

You should run AndrewFG's Digital Media Renderer Analyser to find out what you Renderer supports. Search for forum user AndrewFG and find a link to his DRMA in his signature.

The DMRA is in my sig below.

[PaoloF]

Yes, the sound quality, with my dac, is much higher if the PCM 44.1 data is converted to DSD !!!
It doesn't matter if, after that conversion, the DSD stream is sent in native format or DoP.
We cannot say the same, starting from PCM data with higher sample rate.

My dac is capable to receive DSD flow in native format until DSD256 and in DoP format until DSD128
The renderer Pro-ject Stream Box S2 ultra is capable, I have already verified with Pro-Ject , to send DSD256  both in native and DoP format.

A problem now is:
Volumio, the operating system on board of Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 ultra, maintains a list of dac capable to manage DSD in native format; currently, the North Star Supremo dac is not on this list:
1 - I have already written to Pro-Ject and to www.volumio.org the ID of my dac, to have it added in that list. I am waiting to receive e new version of operating system.
2 - for now, I can only set the renderer so that it transmits data in DoP format, so if I send DSD64 or DSD128 to the renderer this sends them without changes to the dac; if instead I send DSD256, the renderer converts it to PCM 352.


I have tested that if I set Mode: Original,
 - when DLNA server sends PCM 44.1 (untill 352. files  -> the renderer receives and sends to dac PCM 44.1 (untill 352. data;
 -    "           "             "      DSD64/128 files (in DoP format) ->            "           "         "       "         "    DSD64 /128 data.
Very good, exactly what I want!

Since in each of these cases the system works correctly, I wonder why, if I set the DLNA server to apply conversions before sending the data, the renderer does not receive the data in the format in which I wanted it to be.

Thanks for the answers to my questions, at a first reading it seems to me that they confirm what I thought I understood, but on the practical side configuring the server as I said before to the renderer the data do not arrive as I expect.
I shall study your answers better.

[PaoloF]

The DMRA is in my sig below.

I already downloaded the DMRA and I have analized my render:
I'm not sure I understood all the indications, but there are some that don't work, others are ok:
for example. suggests to uncheck "Disable setNext support', but if I do, after 8 secondc the replay of music ends ...

other indications are probably correct:
uncheck DLNA, and DLNAExtra
check : Skip Child count, use flat URLs, use full URLs

but doing or undoing so, don't change results:
if I send original files the music sounds, but if I try to convert sample rate, or PCM to DSD, the renderer don't receives the datas converted ...

[AndrewFG]

Can you please post the renderer report from the DMRA here?

[PaoloF]

Yes, the report is attached.

Today I have received a reply from Volumio.org: my dac will be added to next version of Pro-ject Stream Box s2 ultra software.

[AndrewFG]

Thanks for the renderer report. It shows that your player is NOT compliant to the DLNA standard, because it does not support the L16 PCM format. (Neither does it support L24). So that explains why you get a playing error when you try to push L16 or L24.

So if you want to push PCM, then you should have MC convert to WAV (which is PCM with a header).

Or it supports most other formats like flac, aiff, dsd, dff, etc. natively..

[RoderickGI]

It says it doesn't support DSD, DSF, and MP3 as well, in the evaluation section, and yet it plays DSD and MP3 when "Original Format" is used.
I guess that is explained if the original DSD files are in DFF format, which it declares and evaluates as supported. But it isn't explained if the files are in the DSF format.

It also says it supports wave, declared and evaluated, but it doesn't play any of the PCM formats, PCM 16-bit / PCM 24-bit / PCM L16 no header / PCM L24 no header, if converted by MC from FLAC. Yet it plays a PCM stream from a FLAC file.

I seem to read about a lot of issues with the use of Volumio, so if that is the operating system of the Pro-ject Stream Box s2 ultra, it seems like that may be the issue. After all, it must process any multi-channel audio that is sent to it, so that it can split out the 8 input channels into 4 sets of output channels. So it isn't Bitstreaming through the device, but reading the stream content and outputting a subset to each stereo pair. Which means it must be re-encoding the DSD formats for output. At least that is my best guess as to what it is doing.

Maybe when your DAC is officially supported, these issues will be sorted out.

[AndrewFG]

Given the formats that it does already support, it should be a trivial matter for the manufacturer to add support for the “must support” L16 format.

[PaoloF]

I did a test with Roon: it works, It allows me to take a PCM file to convert it on the fly into DSD, the renderer receives it and sends it in DoP format to the DAC.
I don't like, at all, Roon and his way to manage music library, but it works (i think to leave before test period ends).

I don't understand why the dlna MC25 server can take a DFF file and send it to the renderer that sends it in DoP format to the DAC, but fails to take a PCM file convert it to DSD on the fly and follow the same path.

The management of the MC library, in my opinion, is much more comfortable, but if it doesn't work I will be forced to use Roon ...

I'm waiting the new software of Volumio, but I think that differences  are only between renderer and dac, not between dlna server and render  ... we'll see

[RoderickGI]

I don't understand why the dlna MC25 server can take a DFF file and send it to the renderer that sends it in DoP format to the DAC, but fails to take a PCM file convert it to DSD on the fly and follow the same path.

If the bolded section is what the Pro-Ject Stream Box s2 ultra is doing, set MC to send Native DSD to it, and see if that works.

In all the discussion above you have been using MC to convert PCM to DoP, and sending that to the Pro-Ject Stream Box s2 ultra, which doesn't work. Yet sending a DSD64/128 file in original format works, so send the converted PCM in the same format and it should work. It sounds like the Pro-Ject Stream Box s2 ultra doesn't like the DoP input, but will happily process multi-channel Native DSD into multiple stereo streams in DoP.

There may still be an issue until your DAC is supported, because if the above is correct, the Pro-Ject Stream Box s2 ultra needs to know what your DACs are capable of, but this is worth a try if you haven't already.