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[andrewberg]

After (or 'once', literally ;-) MC has established a network connection, e.g. to a newly connected DLNA device, (Win 10) 'This PC' displays MC's server icon, labelled after the local zone, if any, or the default zone. (See screenshot #1, 'MC running with Network service shown')

Yet shortly thereafter the icon has vanished, and remains so even while MC & server are constantly running... (See screenshot #2, 'MC running, but Network service NOT shown')

As the screenshots demonstrate, MC server ('DLNA' zone in tree) was running all the time...

Is there any deeper reason for this, or just some Windows 10 oddball?

[RoderickGI]

I assume you are looking at this from a Client PC? If you are looking at this from the MC Server PC, it shouldn't be showing its own DLNA Server. It will show other DLNA Server and Renderers.

I can't explain exactly what you are seeing, but can share that MC doesn't immediately forget a DLNA device even if it disappears from the network. Windows Explorer will forget a DLNA device immediately.

Right-click Playing Now and select "Refresh Dynamic Entries". Does the DLNA device disappear?

If you were playing something from the DLNA Server all the while, indicating that it was active, it shouldn't disappear from Windows Explorer or the MC Client.

[andrewberg]

I assume you are looking at this from a Client PC? If you are looking at this from the MC Server PC, it shouldn't be showing its own DLNA Server. It will show other DLNA Server and Renderers.

Correction: It really is the server PC, where my 'DLNA' entry is a TV connected via LAN (renamed after its 'playback zone')... so the renderer in this case.

Windows Explorer will forget a DLNA device immediately.

So it seems... however I just checked, and all MC's servers appear correctly under 'Network' ('Multimedia' section, see next screenshot) in Explorer, so the flaw is related to 'This PC' only... (relief;-)

Curious however why MC's icons are different between 'This PC' and 'Network'...?

Right-click Playing Now and select "Refresh Dynamic Entries". Does the DLNA device disappear?

Only if I turn the TV off... but I usually keep MC / server + TV running at the same time... (so as to quickly switch away from dull TV programs to watching a good movie every once in a while...;-)

[RoderickGI]

For me, "This PC" only displays DLNA Servers, while "Network" displays DLNA Servers, Renderers, PCs, and the MC Library Server (which is different to the MC Server DLNA Server). Plus my router. Hence the different icons.

I don't think there is any flaw in how Windows Explorer is working.

[andrewberg]

For me, "This PC" only displays DLNA Servers, while "Network" displays DLNA Servers, Renderers, PCs, and the MC Library Server (which is different to the MC Server DLNA Server). Plus my router. Hence the different icons.

Right, that makes sense. Still, why doesn't Explorer show a network device under 'This PC' (first screenshot, 'address' section) for as long as it is connected? Let it show or not, but show for a minute then remove it again, that's odd...

BTW, how is "the MC Library Server ... different to the MC DLNA Server"?

[RoderickGI]

Well, Windows 10 is a bit odd. DLNA is a bit odd. So oddness is normal. 

In this case, I think you are looking at both MC and Windows Explorer on the same PC, which is the server. Windows Explorer doesn't show a DLNA Server on the local PC under "This PC" for me either. It shows DLNA Servers running on other PCs. That would be for the simple reason that you can play local files locally without needing to use a DLNA Server, I assume.

Windows Explorer probably showed the local DLNA Server [which is LNO-IDP (MC 25) by the look] until it had finished the Discovery Process, and determined it was a local DLNA Server. DLNA works through sending messages to request information about a DLNA device. It is fast, but still take a little while. That is the only reason I can think of for what you observed.

[andrewberg]

Well, Windows 10 is a bit odd. DLNA is a bit odd. So oddness is normal. 

I definitely subscribe to that statement! ;-)

...Windows Explorer probably showed the local DLNA Server [...] until it had finished the Discovery Process, and determined it was a local DLNA Server.

Thank you so much, that explanation makes perfect sense... (Windows may not be that dumb after all... ;-)

Which reminds me, I keep having trouble to establish a steady connection between MC and TV via DLNA:
Presently, I have to start the a network discovery process on my TV, which always returns the error message "DNS server not specified" (maybe because it cannot connect to internet); however MC will list the TV under 'Playing Now' (named 'DLNA' in my case), and I can access my MC library server on the TV as well...

I think that is called an 'Ad hoc' network... Under Win Vista this was much simpler: I entered a static IP for the PC's LAN adapter, and when the TV was on it would immediately connect to MC... Under Win10, I just can't get this method working, hard as I may try...

Any more, deeper insights in network setup in Win10...? Thanks in advance, i'll get back twomorrow...;-)

[RoderickGI]

Aren't you using a router on your home network? That would be the only reason for using an Ad Hoc network.

Don't you have any internet access from your home network?

Perhaps explain your setup a bit more, and I might be able to comment.

[andrewberg]

Aren't you using a router on your home network? That would be the only reason for using an Ad Hoc network. (...) Perhaps explain your setup a bit more....

Of course, looks like this: Center of the room sits my MC laptop, at the far right end my DSL router linked only to the laptop via Wi-Fi, and on the other far end my TV linked only to the laptop via LAN cable (crossover type). There is no connection between my router and TV as I don't use the TV's internet features...

So when I start a LAN connection from the TV's side to my MC laptop, the TV always claims missing DNS, because it waits for internet signals it never gets*... Then I start MC, which finds the TV at once, and the LAN is now established: MC showing the TV (as 'DLNA') zone, the TV showing a 'Network' menu to access my media server. (Note: *I have enabled internet sharing on my PC's LAN adapter, but that share never seems to reach the TV...)

Anyway, this connection remains active and stable until either MC is closed or the TV turned off. So what I am looking for is a way to establish this connection automatically once MC & TV are running. (As opposed to what I called 'AD hoc', a connection that has to be renewed manually each session...)

All of this worked with ease under Vista just by adding a static IP & subnet mask for my LAN adapter... (The TV's network settings allow static IPs too, but were always left in 'automatic' IP mode.) What do you make of it so far...? I was suspecting the Win10 Firewall to block something in LAN connections, but that would normally trigger a message prompt... All kinds of static IPs have been tested, both for the PC' LAN adapter and the TV's network settings, but to no success...

[RoderickGI]

Given that you don't seem to mind the idea of the TV having access to the internet, and you shouldn't, then the solution is easy.

If your TV (what brand and model?) is capable of a wireless connection at sufficient speed, connect it to the DSL Router using Wi-Fi like the laptop. The TV will see the DNS server on the Router, or on the internet, but more importantly, will get an IP Address from the DHCP Server running on the DSL Router, if you set it up to do so. Do that. At least I hope you have a DHCP Server running on the DSL Router, and the laptop is getting its IP Address from there. Don't use Static IP Addresses. Ditch the crossover cable.

If your TV doesn't support wireless connections, or only supports a slow connection speed, ditch the crossover cable and buy a standard ethernet cable long enough to run from the DSL Router to the TV. Set the TV to get its IP Address from the DHCP Server on the DSL Router. Make sure the laptop is doing the same.

Both the laptop and the TV will now get an IP Address when they are turned on, and when both are turned on they will see each other. The DSL Router should auto-configure itself to allow that, as should the Windows Firewall. But you may see some firewall prompts for MC. Allow them.

Test that works fine.

Once it does, you should implement "IP Address Reservation" on the DSL Router so that every time the laptop and TV are turned on they get the same IP Address from the DSL Router. That works best on a home network. A search of the forum for "IP Address Reservation" will find instructions and discussion on the topic.


Networking in Windows has changed a lot since Vista. Some of it for security reasons, some for performance. An Ad Hoc network will work on Windows 10, and if you had set the appropriate Static IP Address on the TV it would have worked. But it just isn't a good thing to do when you have a router in your network. Ad Hoc networks are best reserved for situations where you just need to connect two networkable devices directly, without any other devices involved. i.e. Two PCs in a location without a network.

[AndrewFG]

Yes. The short summary is that Windows, (or more specifically the UPNP specification on which this Windows function depends), will only work properly when all devices (servers, renderers, and control points) are “on the same sub-net” *).

*) this means means all routing is done by a single router, and that all of the connected devices have either a) received their IP addresses from that router via DHCP, or at least b) have an IP address reserved on that router in the subnet address range that the router uses for routing.

PS the reason for limiting it to the local subnet is rather obvious; if it were not so restricted, then the UPNP discovery mechanism would attempt to discover ALL renderers, servers, and control points on the whole Internet; this might be rather fun, but would slow down your WiFi a tad..

[andrewberg]

Thank you both for instructing me so extensively! ;-) The harder it is to say, I do not wish to route all my media network through WiFi, for firstly that would mean giving up my LAN setup (which is Gigabit, so the fastest possible), second because it would create too much 'radio traffic' in the room (considering EMS etc. ;-), and finally would slow down my laptop's internet access while media are being streamed (yes, I do use both at the same time...;-) BTW, the TV is an "LG 32LV579S" (bought 2012)...

I understand that Win10 is more restrictive on networking features than Vista was (especially for 'public' connections), perhaps for good reasons, only wish they would disclose & explain them... (Did you ever open Win10's 'Media Streaming' control panel page and click 'More information'? Enter an ordinary support page that doesn't even find the term 'Media Streaming' ;-)...
To suggest that Win10 allows only 1 subnet per machine, even for different adapters i.e. separate networks, I find hard to believe (unless I got you wrong)... My WiFi adapter is in the standard subnet of 255.255.255.0 (found in IPv4 'Properties'); the same I always used when assigning static IPs to my LAN and/or TV... No idea where it got that from, as the router's setup page specifies no subnet for any connected devices (suppose it always uses the standard, 255.255.255.0)...

So there must be a simpler solution, without either complex WiFi traffic or lengths of LAN cables all over the room, to establish & preserve my little PC/TV media network... (which I consider more 'private' than Internet, in terms of user numbers... ;-)

[andrewberg]

Given that you don't seem to mind the idea of the TV having access to the internet, and you shouldn't, then the solution is easy.

Just for accuracy... I don't mind the TV having NO internet access -- which is why I have a laptop running alongside... ;-)

[AndrewFG]

I’ve given you my advice. If you don’t want to take it, that fine with me.

[andrewberg]

... The short summary is that Windows, (...), will only work properly when all devices (...) are “on the same sub-net”.

Sorry, maybe I got you wrong... But why does every PC's network adapter leave me the choice to specify static IPs + subnets? Windows 10 even offers media streaming of its own (Win Media Player); so assuming that feature depends on the same UPnP specs as MC, why would Windows restrict it, and thus its own media streaming? That's what I can't believe...

And anyway, since all my devices ARE on the same subnet (see above), that does not seem to be the issue, does it?

[andrewberg]

(...) Ad Hoc networks are best reserved for situations where you just need to connect two networkable devices directly, without any other devices involved (...)

That is exactly what I have! With the tiny difference that one of them is also connected to the Internet (MC/ laptop, through WiFi), while the TV is not...

You seem to say that, unlike Vista, Win10 does not allow these two networks, WiFi & LAN, to co-exist on a device, except on 'Ad hoc' basis where static IPs aren't needed (all done by DHCP)... Is that what you mean?

[RoderickGI]

You should try the Wi-Fi connection. Media Streaming doesn't actually take up that much bandwidth. You may see no effect on your laptop at all. If your TV has the LG Wireless module it supports IEEE802.11a/b/g/n by the look. Plenty fast.

All the scaremongering about Wi-Fi EMS radiation is just that. Scaremongering. Ignore it. If Wi-Fi is on, you are getting the full dose anyway. Power management may turn down the Wi-Fi power, but if you are using it, it is probably running at full power... which still isn't an issue for us humans, or our plants, cats, fish etc.

Windows 10 allows a great deal of configuration, even allowing us to set up stuff that we never should. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

If you insist on your Ad Hoc network solution, setting a Static IP Address on the TV and the laptop ethernet should work, and allow connection without further effort by you. Leaving the TV set to 'automatic' IP mode will always be slower and problematic. I mentioned using a Static IP Address on the TV earlier, but it sounds like you have tested lots of Static IP Address configurations.

So if you had something like:
Laptop 192.168.0.10   255.255.255.0
TV       192.168.0.20   255.255.255.0

Then the connection should work without further action by you. But it may be slow to connect. Certainly slower than establishing a normal network connection, whether it is Wi-Fi or ethernet.

I missed this:

You seem to say that, unlike Vista, Win10 does not allow these two networks, WiFi & LAN, to co-exist on a device, except on 'Ad hoc' basis where static IPs aren't needed (all done by DHCP)... Is that what you mean?

No.

DHCP is used for automatic IP Address assignment, not in Ad Hoc networks.
An Ad Hoc network can use Static IP Addresses assigned by the user, or Windows automatic private network IP Address assignment, which is slow and I suspect limited in some functions.
Windows 10 will allow the two networks connected to the two separate network adapters. But that may have adverse consequences on the laptop, which now has to manage two connections.

[andrewberg]

(...) Media Streaming doesn't actually take up that much bandwidth. (...) If Wi-Fi is on, you are getting the full dose anyway ... which still isn't an issue for us humans, or our plants, cats, fish etc.

You may be right there... ;-)

Windows 10 allows a great deal of configuration, (...) Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Yep, right again... (when I had my first laptop years ago, I wondered what all the files were doing in C:\Windows, and erased them all using a DOS based commander, until the bloody thing went inoperable...;-)

If you insist on your Ad Hoc network ...

Well, I'd rather insist on my LAN connection, whether by means of static IPs or not... So the foremost question remains, why did the simple setup on my Vista laptop (LAN IP on static, TV's on 'automatic') run so perfectly for years, but never does on Win10...?

... setting a Static IP Address on the TV and the laptop ethernet should work, and allow connection without further effort by you. Leaving the TV set to 'automatic' IP mode will always be slower and problematic. (...) but it sounds like you have tested lots of Static IP Address configurations.

Indeed -- however my old Vista setup never showed any latencies when the two got connected... Maybe I'll give your proposed IPs another try ... but the less lenghty figures I have to type in, the better... ;-)

DHCP is used for automatic IP Address assignment, not in Ad Hoc networks. An Ad Hoc network can use Static IP Addresses assigned by the user, or Windows automatic private network IP Address assignment, which is slow and I suspect limited in some functions.

I would have thought 'DHCP' is alway involved where IPs are assigned automatically as opposed to static ones...? (Just looked that up, and the full name 'Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol' seems to imply a 'hosted' server / client connection, which is rather not the case in 'Ad hoc', so there... ;-)

Or shall we say that in my current setup, with all IPs automatic, the TV acts as server, the laptop as client (while it should be vice versa, with MC serving...)?

To make it more weird, after the TV has finished its network discovery (incl. error), I always need to restart Media Center before it will actually see and connect to the TV... (But as you mentioned, 'oddness is normal', certainly in Windows 10... ;-)

[BigSpider]

The simple fact that your system set up isn't working under windows 10 results in the conclusions
1: Don't run Windows 10
2: You have a poorly designed network system using Windows 10 (with it's sometimes idiosyncratic properties)

A simple solution is to have a netgear (or other manufacturers) switch which you connect your tv and laptop to. Everything has it's own ip address and it works. How do I know?  Because it is working here with Router >netgear switch > two Pcs > devolo plug >develo plug> netgear switch> raspberry pi, smart tv;skybox + 2 pcs connected by wifi.