Devices > Video Cards, Monitors, Televisions, and Projectors
HDR interactions between Windows and MC settings
sirkus:
Maybe I have a partial explanation.. When a PC game doesn't support native HDR, Windows HDR doesn't work in full screen. You have to be in windowed mode to apply Windows HDR. The same thing could happen here.
How can I switch from "true" full screen mode to "windowed" full screen mode in MC?
mattkhan:
--- Quote from: JimH on November 09, 2019, 06:25:50 am ---JRiver recommends that you use the madVR version that comes with it. Use of a newer version might work, but might cause problems. You could read more about your options on the Red October thread on our wiki.
--- End quote ---
it's understandable that you ship a stable version but for a user who cares about HDR, the beta build offers a dramatic improvement. It is stable but definitely not a plug and play solution from a config point of view.
sirkus:
Indeed, don't take it bad but, with all this UHD HDR hype, I'm a little surprised that MC doesn't integrate it a little bit clearer and better.
tij:
you have to understand HDR a bit in order to know how it works. HDR improves on previous SDR in 2 ways
1. increase peak brightness from 100-300nits to 10000nits (mainly to highlights bright areas like explosion or sky … most pictures will remain in 100-300nits range)
2. increase color space from rec709 to bt2020 (not much increase in blue, but large increase in red and green … simply grass can be greener in HDR)
none of current display come even close to be able to display full HDR brightness and color (Sony show 10000nit TV but not so sure it can handle full colorspace especially at peak brightness)
so you need to map portion of what TV cannot display into what it can (usually involves compressing color/brightness of image into range that TV can display) … this is tone mapping … and obviously there will be sacrifices … if want to show explosion as red as possible, then brightness is sacrificed and loose details of explosion … if want to show explosion as bright as possible, then gain details of explosion but it will be not as red
now if you "passthrough" HDR meta … it simply mean your PC is doing nothing about HDR and just passing HDR meta to TV … TV then shows HDR logo to indicate it is receiving HDR metadata AND doing tone mapping
So, it does not matter who passes HDR metadata … OS or Nvidia … result is same - PC does nothing and TV does tone mapping
With OS HDR you just have extra burden to switch it off when want to play SDR content
--- Quote --- IMOO, it shouldn't do that. If you select "passthrough HDR" and "send HDR metadata to the display", madVR should pass to Nvidia and bypass OS HDR settings.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote --- IMOO, madVR should pass to OS HDR settings which will pass to Nvidia. That's what seems to happen when you play a video in a Windows player (browser or anything else).
--- End quote ---
you are confusing yourself … in once instance you want to bypass OS HDR … in other instance you want OS to handle HDR
note what Windows setting says - [Play HDR games and apps] … so it is not meant to be used with SDR applications/videos
as I mention before … for video watching … it is best practice to leave Windows HDR off … and let MadVR switch HDR when needed
PS. there is no way in my understanding to play SDR movies in HDR mode (not from PC anyway) ... what ppl usually do is calibrate TV separately for SDR mode and HDR mode (there are test patterns for both ... and TV have separate calibration for both mode)
you need to calibrate to different color spaces anyway ... rec709 for SDR and bt2020 or p3 for HDR (theoretically to play SDR in HDR mode you need to convert rec709 to bt2020 ... madVR dont do that and i dont think anything on PC can at the moment)
PSS. 3D mode also needs to be separately calibrated if yoyr TV suppot it
sirkus:
I admit HDR is confusing, especially on projectors but, from what I understand... Here are the facts and what I see.
First, my projector don't switch to HDR input if HDR is not set in Windows OR a full screen app doesn't make it to switch (which MC does, but the interaction with Windows HDR is not clear or bugged). If none of the above, the projector stays in MHL input. I have read that only native HDR game are able to switch to HDR in full screen. I suspect that this is a feature of the full screen mode of Windows for any app.
Second, when HDR is enabled in Windows, it's clear that the picture "looks" HDR. No matter if it's the desktop or a Youtube video, the projector switches alone to HDR. If not, it says in MHL.
Third, I have configured myself my projector with a probe and a calibration software after reading on various forums. The first thing you have to set is the 100% white... to white. RGB all at the same level. This give you the maximum luminance. The HDR "effect" depends at which level of white you clip the gamma curve. In my case 80% white. The maximum luminance is reached at 80% white (and not 100% as a straight gamma curve). The result is a "S" gamma curve. The probe reads the correct levels of RGB for each level of white. Indeed, enabling "Dynamic Black" on my projector adds luminance by pushing the blue. But, the HDR effect works very well without boosting the blue. I don't say that I fully understand how it works technically but, visually I see clearly the difference when HDR is enabled in Windows or not.
--- Quote from: tij on November 09, 2019, 09:30:49 am ---So, it does not matter who passes HDR metadata … OS or Nvidia … result is same - PC does nothing and TV does tone mapping
--- End quote ---
That's what is not clear for me. In a movie the metadata are set by the producer. In Windows there should be some generic interpolation. As I said, switching Windows to HDR, switches my projector to HDR and the differrence is clearly visible. So what happen to native HDR? That's my question.
--- Quote from: tij on November 09, 2019, 09:30:49 am ---you are confusing yourself … in once instance you want to bypass OS HDR … in other instance you want OS to handle HDR
--- End quote ---
Yes, I don't want to switch manually in Windows and as I said, switching introduces bug in MC. If MC supports "windowed" full screen (like my games) it could let Windows handling HDR and in "real" full screen mode MC handles itself the HDR. Why when the play menu or the right click menu is displayed in fully screen mode and HDR is enabled in Windows, MC switches to HDR (which was clearly not the case before)? Because MC leaves full screen mode and Windows HDR take the lead?
The only answer I see on this forum is to disable Windows HDR and let MC do the job. Why? No answer? I would like to choose my self and do the comparison. If I disable Windows HDR my desktop looks crappy (and MC HDR in full screen works but, not very stable). If I enable Windows HDR, MC doesn't switch to HDR in full screen mode (and seems to use Windows HDR in windowed mode). These are the facts.
Ideally, for me, HDR should be always on in Windows and MC should take the control in full screen mode as it does now when HDR is disabled in Windows. Is it possible?
EDIT: I have noticed that the Windows slider that configure the amount of HDR in Windows preferences changes the clipping value of the "S" curve. From straight curve to "S" curve.
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