Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[dvoretsa]

Hi,

I use JRiver 26 MC UPnP Server to stream music to Naim Mu-so QB2, which has native DSD support up to DSD128. I can stream DSD and DSF files, but I can't stream SACD ISOs without conversion to PCM. I always suppose that SACD ISO and DSD64 is the same, but it is not. When I use Audio mode "Original" in DLNA server options SACD ISOs doesn't play. I also tried "Bitstream DSD" in Advanced options with no success (in this case only noise played).

Is it possible somehow to stream SACD ISOs as DSD without extracting DSF/DSD files from ISOs? I have hundreds of ISO and I don't like the idea to convert them all. Here is my post at Naim forum - https://community.naimaudio.com/t/mu-so-qb2-and-dsd-streaming/6207

Regards,
Andrey.

[Awesome Donkey]

Don't think there's any devices that support SACD ISOs over DLNA via DoPE. Extracting DSF files from the SACD ISOs is likely the best course of action, and is what I do in my own setup when it comes to SACD ISOs.

[dvoretsa]

But why not extracting DSF/DSD "on the fly" internally in JRiver while SACD ISO playback? What sense to stream out SACD ISO without extracting DSF/DSD if no one device support it? Maybe such extraction "on the fly" will be realized in future releases of JRiver?

[Awesome Donkey]

JRiver doesn't extract DSF files from a SACD ISO though, when you play it back (via bitstreaming) it just sends the data as-is to whatever you're bitstreaming it to for it to do the decoding. MC doesn't decode DSD, unless it's converting DSD to PCM (which is a lossy conversion).

I doubt an on-the-fly extraction feature would be added either, since JRiver doesn't have any support for DSD extractions in general (but does support conversions). DSD conversions in MC always goes through a PCM stage in the middle (e.g. DSD64 to PCM to DSD128) and there's no direct DSD to DSD conversion possible.

Finally, it's pretty simple using an app like ISO2DSD (or a command-line application like sacd_extract with the GUI app available for it) to extract DSF files from a SACD ISOs.

[dvoretsa]

Hi, again!

I have one more question. If I choose Options->Media Network->Add or configure DLNA servers->Audio mode = "Original" what will streaming out while playing DSF/DFF files? It will be DSD stream or conversion to PCM?
I discovered that with this settings I've able to play DSD files not only on Naim Mu So Qb2 (which support DSD), but also on my old PS Audio Perfectwave DAC MK2. According to specs PS Audio DAC doesn't support DSD. But in reality it does! It display PCM 88kHz on the screen while playing DSD files.
I read in JRiver wiki that in "original" audio mode MC stream DSD without conversion to PCM. Is it true? If so it is strange that PCM DAC can play DSD files in this mode. If I try "Bitstream DSD" checkbox in Advanced setting I can't play DSD files (not on PS Audio DAC, not on Naim Mu So).

Regards,
Andrey.

[Awesome Donkey]

No, that audio mode setting when set to original only applies to PCM. Even if you set the DLNA server audio mode to original, MC will still convert DSD to PCM unless you have the Bitstream DSD (requires DoPE compliant renderer) option enabled and your setup supports it.

What's happening here is MC is converting DSD to PCM and your PS Audio DAC is playing the conversion and it displaying PCM 88 kHz confirms that. If your PS Audio DAC doesn't support DSD, you won't be able to bitstream/playback DSD files without MC converting them to PCM and playing the conversion.

[dvoretsa]

Thank you for clearing that. But why in JRiver wiki we can see:

Advanced DLNA settings

The option under the DLNA server configuration Advanced section "Bitstream DSD" (requires DoPE compatible renderer) will ALWAYS send dsf, dff and sacd files as DoPE regardless of the audio format settings above. If you have a native DSD compatible renderer, you should not use this option. Instead use either "Original format" or "Specified format only when necessary" as de-select the file types including DSD that you don't want converted.

And one more moment. As I said above I have PS Audio PWD DAC and Naim Mu-So QB2. PWD doesn't support DSD, OK. But Mu-so QB2 support up to DSD128. It is declares in it's specs and it is confirmed by Naim tech support - https://community.naimaudio.com/t/mu-so-qb2-and-dsd-streaming/6207.
But if I select checkbox "Bitstream DSD" my Mu-so doesn't play DSD. Why?

[thecrow]

No, that audio mode setting when set to original only applies to PCM. Even if you set the DLNA server audio mode to original, MC will still convert DSD to PCM unless you have the Bitstream DSD (requires DoPE compliant renderer) option enabled and your setup supports it.

What's happening here is MC is converting DSD to PCM and your PS Audio DAC is playing the conversion and it displaying PCM 88 kHz confirms that. If your PS Audio DAC doesn't support DSD, you won't be able to bitstream/playback DSD files without MC converting them to PCM and playing the conversion.

Sorry I do not think that is correct.
There are two ways to stream DSD over DLNA, one as native DSD and the second is repacked as a fake PCM signal using DoPE.
When MC is set to original mode and the tickbox to bitstream DSD is unticked it sends native DSD.
When the tick box is ticked it REPACKS the DSD as fake PCM, this is not the same as converting to PCM, then the receiver unpacks the fake PCM signal as the original DSD stream. This stream would appear as a 172k PCM stream of "white" noise to a none DoPE receiver.

I personally stream native DSD over DLNA to my devices such as my Oppo 203 which displays that it is receiving a DSD signal, only when the bitsream box is unticked as my Oppo does not understand DoPE. Also true for my Marantz AV receiver which too indicates it is receiving DSD not PCM.

[dvoretsa]

And one more thing  .
If in original mode JRiver DLNA server convert DSD to PCM than why only DSF64 files can be playing in this mode on my PS Audio DAC? DSF128 or higher files doesn't play. In case of conversion to PCM it will be no matter how heavy source DSD files.

So, it really seems that in original mode native DSD is streaming. Se the post thecrow also!

[dvoretsa]

Any other opinions? Can someone else confirm that in Original mode native DSD, not PCM is streaming?

[JimH]

Original is original, whatever the format is.

[Awesome Donkey]

Sorry I do not think that is correct.
There are two ways to stream DSD over DLNA, one as native DSD and the second is repacked as a fake PCM signal using DoPE.

I didn't know that. As far as I knew DSD over DLNA only worked through DoPE for devices that support it. Are you sure that's right? It doesn't sound right, hmmm.

But what really makes me confused is not having DSD bitstreaming enabled to get native DSD over DLNA working. Huh? As far as I know you have to have DSD bitstreaming enabled in MC for DSD (including native DSD, DoP and DoPE) to be played back correctly otherwise, as far as I know, MC will convert the DSD to PCM. And yes, I know I'm ignoring the output format options to convert everything to DSD which I'm not sure works without having DSD bitstreaming enabled because I've never tried it.

Also I don't think any of the native DSD over DLNA without having DSD bitstreaming enabled is in the wiki as well. I'm also guessing it probably doesn't work with SACD ISOs with DLNA either.

[dvoretsa]

Dead end  .

Original is original, whatever the format is.

Can you confirm that in Original mode (without "Bitstream DSD" in advanced options checked) native DSD will stream out while plaing Dsf/Dff files?

I want to find the real state of things.

[thecrow]

I am just a user like most people here, so I don't have any great insight into the internal workings of MC.
BUT when I setup MC to stream original with Bitstream DSD unticked what my Oppo and what my Marantz tell me they are receiving is DSD, now I can see no way they would say that if they were receiving PCM.
My Oppo is setup to pass DSD over HDMI to my amp and when streaming DSD from MC not only does the Oppo say its receiving DSD but what is passed to the amp is also identified as DSD.

I think the Bitstream DSD tick box is confusingly labeled and should say something like "Use DoPE to bitstream DSD"

But I also understand the scepticism and the desire to have what I am saying confirmed by those with a more intimate knowledge of the internal workings of MC. 

[dvoretsa]

But I also understand the scepticism and the desire to have what I am saying confirmed by those with a more intimate knowledge of the internal workings of MC. 

Personally I agreed with your position, according to my tests there is no conversion to PCM in this mode. But I want MC developers to prove that, because PS Audio team say that my PWD can't handle native DSD. Here is the thread if it's interesting to you - https://forum.psaudio.com/t/dsd-support-in-perfectwave-mkii-dac/15095/16

[Dennis in FL]

Maybe a future release can clear up the options menus (more descriptive of what the choices do to DSD, etc)

[Melomaniac]

Hi Andrey !
Did you found out how to stream native SACD ISO in MC ?

I have also some of SACD ISOs that I am too lazy to convert to dsf etc.

I am using different software to do this from my PC to Ifi Zen Stream with Zen Dac gen1.

I like Media Centre and I am buying every year now early bird special for Master License because I think it is great software in many ways and I want to support developers.
For example : I can stream movie from my PC to LG 4K TV in UHD format with Dolby Vision and Atmos.
I tried to use different software and results were very poor.
I have to mention here that my PC is very old.
It has SSD drive but CPU is Q6600 from Ice age era 8 GB Ram.
I have 3 PCs based on socket 775 and they are more than fine to play music and stream music .

Will be nice to have option in MC to stream SACD ISO easily .

Best Regards !

Please let me know if you know any settings in MC to stream SACD ISO that work for you.

[JimH]

Try a Google search, adding JRiver.  Here's an example of what's available:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=125419.0

[davewave]

It does not make sense to try to stream a SACD ISO using JRiver.   As noted in this dialog, JRiver as it is today (and probably alway will) converts the SACD ISO to PCM.   It does not convert SACD ISO to a lossless DSF file (or other DSD formats).   Instead, one would have to do the conversion using another tool if lossless is desired.   

Personally I would like a more elegant approach but I don't think that is in the cards.

[bob]

It does not make sense to try to stream a SACD ISO using JRiver.   As noted in this dialog, JRiver as it is today (and probably alway will) converts the SACD ISO to PCM.   It does not convert SACD ISO to a lossless DSF file (or other DSD formats).   Instead, one would have to do the conversion using another tool if lossless is desired.   

Personally I would like a more elegant approach but I don't think that is in the cards.

If you play a SACD on a Mac to a DSD DoP capable device, like an iFi Nano DSD, it will not be converted to PCM (assuming you have bitstreaming set to DSD in MC's audio settings).

[davewave]

Cool feature for Mac users.  But I am on Windows.

[Awesome Donkey]

You can DSD bitstream on Windows, Mac and Linux. I can with my DAC - both native DSD and DoP on Windows and Linux and DoP on macOS.

[davewave]

Yes, if the DSD has already been removed from the ISO file.   But one can't just load up an ISO and bitstream the DSD signal.   Because, as far as I know, JRiver does not losslessly convert the ISO to DSD.  Instead, it converts to PCM.

[Awesome Donkey]

Extracting individual DSF files from a SACD ISO without conversion is easy as well on any platform, use sacd_extract from the command line (or with a frontend like SACDExtractGUI) or Sonore's ISO2DSD app to extract DSF files out of a SACD ISO. This is a lossless process, as there's no conversion of any kind being done, it's extracting the raw data from the ISO for each track and packing it into either a DSF (which is what I'd recommend for full metadata support) or DFF container. Maybe WavPack too, if the apps support such a thing, but DSF is pretty much the way to go, IMO.

You're right though, MC doesn't extract DSF/DFF files from a SACD ISO, at least not without a PCM conversion step in the middle. Using one of the aforementioned apps is the only way to do it and it's not really that difficult to do thankfully.

[bob]

Yes, if the DSD has already been removed from the ISO file.   But one can't just load up an ISO and bitstream the DSD signal.   Because, as far as I know, JRiver does not losslessly convert the ISO to DSD.  Instead, it converts to PCM.

I don't think that is the case.
I'm playing a SACD to my connected iFi nano on a Mac and I don't see any indication that it's converting to PCM in between.
Would you explain how you come to that conclusion?

[bob]

Well, sir, as you actually work for JRiver you can verify my statement more easily than me.  But it is well documented in these forums that Media Center converts all DSD files in the ISO to PCM.  A DSD extraction with JRiver takes a ISO to PCM then back to DSD.

If you can prove otherwise I would like to know.

Doesn't mean your dongle/DAC isn't getting music.  Its just getting PCM music.

There are many who think SACD(DSD) is of no benefit, others like it.  I am in the latter camp.

That's currently the case for CONVERSION, it is NOT the case for playback.
I just verified that by stepping the code as it was sending DSD from a SACD track to a DSD capable DAC.

[thecrow]

I am a little confused by some statements in this thread.
Are you saying it is possible to have an ISO of a SACD and use MC to stream tracks from this ISO to a DLNA renderer?
I thought to be able to stream the tracks they had to be extracted from the ISO as DSF files.

Or has the subject been changed to playing a SACD ISO through a USB connected DAC?

[Awesome Donkey]

I thought to be able to stream the tracks they had to be extracted from the ISO as DSF files.

This was my understanding as well, since if I recall correctly DLNA is a file based system and that's an issue with SACD ISOs containing multiple tracks without extraction/conversion.

[bob]

I am a little confused by some statements in this thread.
Are you saying it is possible to have an ISO of a SACD and use MC to stream tracks from this ISO to a DLNA renderer?
I thought to be able to stream the tracks they had to be extracted from the ISO as DSF files.

Or has the subject been changed to playing a SACD ISO through a USB connected DAC?

I was talking about playing on a computer not streaming, so yes, playing an individual track to a DLNA renderer, since DLNA is completely file based, likely does a conversion through PCM.
That wouldn't have to be the case but I believe it is.
Right now the only way to play ISO tracks to a streaming device as DSD is to select "convert when necessary" choose SACD and choose the output format as DSF.

[thecrow]

Thanks for clearing that up, Bob.
That aligns with my understanding/experiences.
Whenever I have tried to stream from a SACD ISO it has simply failed to work.
But streaming DSF files works beautifully.

[Dennis in FL]

Hi,

I use JRiver 26 MC UPnP Server to stream music to Naim Mu-so QB2, which has native DSD support up to DSD128. I can stream DSD and DSF files, but I can't stream SACD ISOs without conversion to PCM. I always suppose that SACD ISO and DSD64 is the same, but it is not. When I use Audio mode "Original" in DLNA server options SACD ISOs doesn't play. I also tried "Bitstream DSD" in Advanced options with no success (in this case only noise played).

Is it possible somehow to stream SACD ISOs as DSD without extracting DSF/DSD files from ISOs? I have hundreds of ISO and I don't like the idea to convert them all. Here is my post at Naim forum - https://community.naimaudio.com/t/mu-so-qb2-and-dsd-streaming/6207

Regards,
Andrey.

I don't know how much time I spent trying to figure out why some albums weren't playing over DLNA.   Then I read your post.   
I used to have a USB connection and the ISOs played fine.   I switched to DLNA for convenience.
I think I'll spend some time and convert the ISOs to DFF

[Awesome Donkey]

DSF is what I'd recommend, as it supports metadata much better than DFF.

[Dennis in FL]

Don't think there's any devices that support SACD ISOs over DLNA via DoPE. Extracting DSF files from the SACD ISOs is likely the best course of action, and is what I do in my own setup when it comes to SACD ISOs.

I used to have a PC to DAC setup via USB and since switched to DLNA (via Ropieee ) to my DAC.   Trouble is the ISO files are not grayed out and I find out too late that they can't play.  I have converted quite a few but not all ISOs to DSF but is there a way to convert ISO to something else on the fly so if I play one it doesn't give me an error?

[JimH]

Check the DLNA Server settings in JRiver.

[bob]

Check the DLNA Server settings in JRiver.

You should be able to do this in the DLNA server settings by doing convert when necessary and choose SACD as the format to convert under advanced then output that as DSF

[Dennis in FL]

Well, I continued to have troubles on my iMac.  If the file was an iso (SACD) I got an error of "file not found"  (the file is there on a NAS server)--- then I changed the on the fly conversion to DSF and converting only SACD ...and got the same error.   I tried this on my Window thinking it may be a MAC issue with the NAS....but got the same error.

Then, instead of playing the music from the "Audio" tree, I found the same music under the "Files" tree and it played perfectly.

Without changing anything.

Other music (for instance FLAC) plays OK with the Audio tree.

If this is confusing, I can make a video.

UPDATE - after the above, I went back to the audio section and it no longer says "file not found"  on the Mac.  However, the Windows version still gives me a file error.