Topic: HTPC for theater (Read 5829 times)

Chris Solo · « **on:** May 27, 2020, 08:58:23 pm »

Downloaded a trial a couple of days ago and I’m seriously impressed. The ability to create seamless movie night preshows using the playlist feature is priceless. I use Plex and Apple TV currently for whole house viewing from my UnRaid server but Plex is just too limited for use in my home theater. I did some searching and I really am not sure what to get in terms of building a PC. Many people have requirements I don’t and some things I want I don’t specifically see. Here’s what I need and don’t need...

No gaming at all, just movie playback in dedicated theater room with no multi zone needs
No ripping at all (have a dedicated video editing rig that handles that)
Media is on a dedicated UnRaid server (74+ terabytes so far, MKV files) and will only store some trailers and other preshow stuff locally
Assuming I can bitstream Atmos, etc over HDMI to my prepro without any expensive soundcards
Fan noise won’t be an issue (HTPC will be in equipment room)
Need flawless playback of 4K, Atmos, DTS:X obviously.
Would like 3D MVC support but I have my original discs and Oppo in the rare event I want to watch something in 3D so no biggie

I’m excited to get going with this in my new theater room. Thanks for any input you can share.

Chris

stewart_pk · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2020, 09:57:30 pm »

Quote from: Chris Solo on May 27, 2020, 08:58:23 pm

Would like 3D MVC support but I have my original discs and Oppo in the rare event I want to watch something in 3D so no biggie

I’m excited to get going with this in my new theater room. Thanks for any input you can share.

JRiver supports 3D.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2020, 10:00:13 pm »

Was just reading up on that. I’m currently immersing myself in the forum and wiki. Thanks for the reply!

Chris

RoderickGI · « **Reply #3 on:** May 28, 2020, 12:32:25 am »

The latest nVidia drivers do not support 3D however, so you should look at AMD for a video card with a new build. But check on their support and plans as well. An iGPU or APU won't give you the best video, so you will need a dedicated graphics card.

On the rest, it is all discussed in the form... all over the place. Note that there is a Google search for JRiver on the support page. That is often better than using the built-in forum search. https://www.jriver.com/support.html

Chris Solo · « **Reply #4 on:** May 28, 2020, 11:50:38 am »

Oh I’m searching the forums, just trying to find the most recent builds to base my parts on. I know just enough about building computers to screw stuff up. Thanks for the google tip.

Chris

BryanC · « **Reply #5 on:** May 28, 2020, 01:05:45 pm »

There are two ideal camps that most people will fall into re: building HTPCs in 2020.

1. Videophiles looking for the absolute best video quality
2. Normal people that want something that works, looks pretty good, and is economical

If you are in camp 1, the basis of your build will be the most expensive GPU you can afford in conjunction with madVR (which involves scripting, detailed understanding of upsampling algorithms, etc.). Cost: ~$1000. Power usage: 300+ watts. Quality: Excellent. Most difficult.
If you are in camp 2, you should try really hard to eliminate the HTPC and stream to your TV using built-in apps (Plex, etc) or an embedded device (Roku, Fire stick, chromecast, etc) and use a NAS or PC functioning as a media server with DLNA or some other protocol. Cost: free or ~$40 for a DLNA client. Power usage: 0-10w. Quality: Acceptable. Easiest.

If you fall somewhere in between the two camps then the price/performance ratio is going to go downhill but it's still an option If you want to run Red October HQ (which is basically the middle-ground between the camps--easy to set up, looks really dang good, just requires a more powerful GPU than a typical desktop) then you will want to base your build around a GPU that is on par or equal to a GTX 1050 or thereabouts. Cost: ~$600. Power usage: 200+ watts. Quality: Great.

If you want more control of the client (say you want to run MC Theater View) then follow the Raspberry Pi 4B video progress over in the MC for Linux board. It's almost possible to build your own SBC HTPC running MC. Cost: ~$50. Power usage: 10w. Quality: Good.

Once the Pi ARM build shapes up, you could build a HTPC around a RockPro64 with or without an external low-profile GPU. Cost: $100-$300. Power usage: 10-100w. Quality: Very good to great.

On the horizon are the Ryzen 4000 series APUs. These will very likely be good enough to run ROHQ out of the box but that won't be known until they can be benchmarked. At the very least they will accommodate madVR with custom scaling. Cost: ~$400. Power usage: 70W. Quality: Very good to great.

You can look into an existing embedded ryzen board like the Udoo Bolt. Cost: ~$500. Power usage: 25W. Quality: Good to great.

wer · « **Reply #6 on:** May 28, 2020, 01:19:49 pm »

I think there's a third camp: People who want some customization or control over how their media is presented and organized.

AppleTV, for instance, is a fine streaming platform, and can play back media files from network accessible storage. The quality is good enough for a lot of people.

But your ripped movies will be presented the way Apple thinks they should be presented.

Your music collection will be organized the way Apple thinks it should be organized.

Admittedly some HTPC software packages are not any better. But some, like MC, allow you to organize and present in the way that best makes sense to you, in the way that you want.

The tradeoff is complexity; you have to put the work in. For this camp, a midrange GPU (or even on board graphics, sometimes) and a more modestly powered computer will suffice, because they're not trying to extract the last bit of MadVR performance, as it's the organizing software that is important.

BryanC · « **Reply #7 on:** May 28, 2020, 01:23:35 pm »

Quote from: wer on May 28, 2020, 01:19:49 pm

I think there's a third camp: People who want some customization or control over how their media is presented and organized.

AppleTV, for instance, is a fine streaming platform, and can play back media files from network accessible storage. The quality is good enough for a lot of people.

But your ripped movies will be presented the way Apple thinks they should be presented.

Your music collection will be organized the way Apple thinks it should be organized.

Admittedly some HTPC software packages are not any better. But some, like MC, allow you to organize and present in the way that best makes sense to you, in the way that you want.

The tradeoff is complexity; you have to put the work in. For this camp, a midrange GPU (or even on board graphics, sometimes) and a more modestly powered computer will suffice, because they're not trying to extract the last bit of MadVR performance, as it's the organizing software that is important.

Yes, this is where MC on ARM will thrive.

Before then it's hard to beat the value of a J1900 system for the same purposes.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #8 on:** May 28, 2020, 01:37:13 pm »

Quote from: BryanC on May 28, 2020, 01:05:45 pm

There are two ideal camps that most people will fall into re: building HTPCs in 2020.

1. Videophiles looking for the absolute best video quality
2. Normal people that want something that works, looks pretty good, and is economical

If you are in camp 1, the basis of your build will be the most expensive GPU you can afford in conjunction with madVR (which involves scripting, detailed understanding of upsampling algorithms, etc.). Cost: ~$1000. Power usage: 300+ watts. Quality: Excellent. Most difficult.
If you are in camp 2, you should try really hard to eliminate the HTPC and stream to your TV using built-in apps (Plex, etc) or an embedded device (Roku, Fire stick, chromecast, etc) and use a NAS or PC functioning as a media server with DLNA or some other protocol. Cost: free or ~$40 for a DLNA client. Power usage: 0-10w. Quality: Acceptable. Easiest.

If you fall somewhere in between the two camps then the price/performance ratio is going to go downhill but it's still an option If you want to run Red October HQ (which is basically the middle-ground between the camps--easy to set up, looks really dang good, just requires a more powerful GPU than a typical desktop) then you will want to base your build around a GPU that is on par or equal to a GTX 1050 or thereabouts. Cost: ~$600. Power usage: 200+ watts. Quality: Great.

If you want more control of the client (say you want to run MC Theater View) then follow the Raspberry Pi 4B video progress over in the MC for Linux board. It's almost possible to build your own SBC HTPC running MC. Cost: ~$50. Power usage: 10w. Quality: Good.

Once the Pi ARM build shapes up, you could build a HTPC around a RockPro64 with or without an external low-profile GPU. Cost: $100-$300. Power usage: 10-100w. Quality: Very good to great.

On the horizon are the Ryzen 4000 series APUs. These will very likely be good enough to run ROHQ out of the box but that won't be known until they can be benchmarked. At the very least they will accommodate madVR with custom scaling. Cost: ~$400. Power usage: 70W. Quality: Very good to great.

You can look into an existing embedded ryzen board like the Udoo Bolt. Cost: ~$500. Power usage: 25W. Quality: Good to great.

I am definitely not in camp 2. My HTPC will be feeding a projector. I use Plex currently for whole house and with Apple TV at each televsion, it works great but in the theater I want zero transcoding, and support for Atmos and DTS:X. Basically serve up my bit perfect rips without degrading anything. The $1000 price range is ok. This is gonna sound silly perhaps, but what I love in JRiver based on the demo I am playing around with is the ability to create a movie night playlist with bumpers, trailers and the feature film, all customized and launchable from Theater View. I don't mind working to get the set up right vs the greater ease in getting running with a streaming box. I'm looking over people's parts lists and hopefully can come up with something that all of you much smarter people will say will work. Thanks for the replies folks.

BryanC · « **Reply #9 on:** May 28, 2020, 02:00:15 pm »

Are you going to be tonemapping for your projectors?

Chris Solo · « **Reply #10 on:** May 28, 2020, 02:03:16 pm »

Quote from: BryanC on May 28, 2020, 02:00:15 pm

Are you going to be tonemapping for your projectors?

Well there's a term I need to research lol. I'm just starting to get into 4K content but the projector will be the only 4K capable display I will have so even though I have some 4k content now, nothing to watch it on yet.

EDIT: It appears the answer is yes. The initial projector will be an EPSON 6050 faux-K

BryanC · « **Reply #11 on:** May 28, 2020, 02:20:48 pm »

Quote from: Chris Solo on May 28, 2020, 02:03:16 pm

Well there's a term I need to research lol. I'm just starting to get into 4K content but the projector will be the only 4K capable display I will have so even though I have some 4k content now, nothing to watch it on yet.

Projectors must tonemap HDR (10-bit) content. The quality by which that happens is highly dependent on the projector brand and model. By most accounts madVR tonemapping provides far superior results to what is available in projectors.

Here's the rub:
1. madVR tonemapping is only available in madVR test builds and must be implemented as a custom renderer in MC (you lose the benefits of Red October HQ)
2. Proper configuration of madVR requires experience with video concepts such as upscaling, chroma, bitdepth, filters, 4:4:4, render queues, tonemapping curves, etc. along with general computer concepts like if statements and the ability to benchmark the GPU
3. This all requires substantial GPU power.

However, the results are outstanding. Oftentimes people find that the madVR tonemapping produces SDR content that looks better than source content on their HDR-capable displays (due to poorly implemented HDR hardware e.g. no local dimming).

It's also possible for you to blindly configure madVR using the default Red October HQ profile, installing the madVR beta version on top of the MC plugin, and then selecting or copy-pasting a recommended tonemapping profile. This will still look pretty dang good even if you may not be using your hardware to its full potential.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #12 on:** May 28, 2020, 02:36:10 pm »

Quote from: BryanC on May 28, 2020, 02:20:48 pm

Projectors must tonemap HDR (10-bit) content. The quality by which that happens is highly dependent on the projector brand and model. By most accounts madVR tonemapping provides far superior results to what is available in projectors.

Here's the rub:
1. madVR tonemapping is only available in madVR test builds and must be implemented as a custom renderer in MC (you lose the benefits of Red October HQ)
2. Proper configuration of madVR requires experience with video concepts such as upscaling, chroma, bitdepth, filters, 4:4:4, render queues, tonemapping curves, etc. along with general computer concepts like if statements and the ability to benchmark the GPU
3. This all requires substantial GPU power.

However, the results are outstanding. Oftentimes people find that the madVR tonemapping produces SDR content that looks better than source content on their HDR-capable displays (due to poorly implemented HDR hardware e.g. no local dimming).

It's also possible for you to blindly configure madVR using the default Red October HQ profile, installing the madVR beta version on top of the MC plugin, and then selecting or copy-pasting a recommended tonemapping profile. This will still look pretty dang good even if you may not be using your hardware to its full potential.

So would Red October HQ still be utilized for the 1080p stuff and just not 4K? My deal is out of 4200 titles on my server, only about 50 or so are 4K so it makes sense to optimize for 2D 1080p playback. PS: My wife is super irritated that I'm more engrossed in researching this than new appliances for the kitchen. We're building a new home and I personally think I have my priorities in the right place

wer · « **Reply #13 on:** May 28, 2020, 02:48:06 pm »

You can define different zones for different configurations, and route playback of files through the appropriate zone configuration based on rules using ZoneSwitch.

So you can do whatever you want.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #14 on:** May 28, 2020, 02:58:57 pm »

Quote from: wer on May 28, 2020, 02:48:06 pm

You can define different zones for different configurations, and route playback of files through the appropriate zone configuration based on rules using ZoneSwitch.

So you can do whatever you want.

Gotcha! Thanks.

Chris

Chris Solo · « **Reply #15 on:** May 28, 2020, 04:35:36 pm »

https://pcpartpicker.com/user/ChrisSolo/saved/XzjVcf

If any of this is way overkill, please let me know. I don’t want to scrimp but I also don’t want anything I don’t need. Thanks folks.

Chris

BryanC · « **Reply #16 on:** May 28, 2020, 05:56:58 pm »

That's a good bang for your buck build for all-around computing. It could be a lot cheaper, quieter, and less power hungry but it's certainly powerful. The only change I would suggest is to get an m.2 nvme drive instead of a sata ssd in case you want to add additional local storage in the future (plus it will be at least 4x as fast). I tend to have better luck with defining custom display resolutions in the Nvidia driver software than AMD's but I have not tried running automatic refresh rate switching on an AMD GPU in two years so maybe the situation is better.

wer · « **Reply #17 on:** May 28, 2020, 06:12:46 pm »

Since you're looking to build an HTPC in a horizontal audio-style case, I would suggest you talk to the people at SilentPC.com. Having a system that operates quietly as an HTPC is a big plus.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #18 on:** May 28, 2020, 07:00:10 pm »

Thanks guys!

Chris

Chris Solo · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2020, 07:25:51 pm »

Quote from: wer on May 28, 2020, 06:12:46 pm

Since you're looking to build an HTPC in a horizontal audio-style case, I would suggest you talk to the people at SilentPC.com. Having a system that operates quietly as an HTPC is a big plus.

The unit won't be in the theater proper so it won't be heard. Everything will be in an equipment rack in the lobby.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #20 on:** May 28, 2020, 07:31:39 pm »

Quote from: BryanC on May 28, 2020, 05:56:58 pm

That's a good bang for your buck build for all-around computing. It could be a lot cheaper, quieter, and less power hungry but it's certainly powerful. The only change I would suggest is to get an m.2 nvme drive instead of a sata ssd in case you want to add additional local storage in the future (plus it will be at least 4x as fast). I tend to have better luck with defining custom display resolutions in the Nvidia driver software than AMD's but I have not tried running automatic refresh rate switching on an AMD GPU in two years so maybe the situation is better.

Where could I save, the graphics card? The reason I picked an AMD is the fact that Nvidia no longer supports 3D. I wouldn't mind a cheaper system if this is overkill. Thanks!

Chris

jmone · « **Reply #21 on:** May 29, 2020, 03:44:27 am »

There was a post from Madshi that he has frame packed 3D working on the latest nvidia GPU with his Envy, and hopefully will port it back to madvr.

Quote

I've just made a new firmware available for our private beta testers which adds:

1) full 3D support (only for 1080p24)

Needs testing to confirm it works reliably. But looks good so far, and it will mean Envy can do full frame packed 3D, after all (!).

Hendrik · « **Reply #22 on:** May 29, 2020, 03:53:04 am »

Quote from: jmone on May 29, 2020, 03:44:27 am

There was a post from Madshi that he has frame packed 3D working on the latest nvidia GPU with his Envy, and hopefully will port it back to madvr.

He has also already stated that the next madVR HTPC version will include a fix for 3D support. Although when that'll come out is anyones guess.

tij · « **Reply #23 on:** May 29, 2020, 07:19:04 am »

If not playing games ... can use older NV drivers that support 3D ... but must buy GPU that support those old drivers (anything before Super series)

If your projector is 4K and support 4K Over/Under format ... MadVR can output 3D frame pack in that ... you will not be loosing any resolution on that.

Current stable MadVR shipped with MC does good tone mapping. Way better than most projectors do. What ppl refer as experimental ... are builds that try to improve on that using dynamic algorithms (scene are mapped based on each scene brightness ... as opposed to what now is done using global brightness ... aka madshi own version of Dolby Vision/HDR10+)

It’s also worth mentioning that madshi is working on using AI for image processing ... area were NVidia is better than AMD (my understanding ... using RTX cores)

rec head · « **Reply #24 on:** May 29, 2020, 08:50:35 am »

Just to pile on a little:

JRiver's "Zones" aren't like a receiver's zones. They are just a group of settings and are very flexible. You can even set rules to automatically switch between them. This is called Zoneswitch. Example: I use two zones, one for bitstreaming ATMOS/DTS:X content and another to send PCM for everything else.

I gave up trying to keep up with using the correct Nvidia driver to keep 3D working and switched to using the Top and Bottom method. I don't notice a difference. When I researched video cards before upgrading to my 1060 6GB card I think that Nvidia was preferred for madVR but I'm not sure if that is still true. OP, you seem into this so don't skimp on the video card. I'm happy with mine but new stuff is always happening and if I were to buy one now I would get something better just 'cos. MadVR's upscaling 1080 to 4K can be exceptional but that requires some power. There are some good guides on how to setup madVR to get you started.

Your video card will handle the audio. No separate audio card needed.

mojave · « **Reply #25 on:** May 29, 2020, 10:01:02 am »

Quote from: BryanC on May 28, 2020, 02:20:48 pm

1. madVR tonemapping is only available in madVR test builds and must be implemented as a custom renderer in MC (you lose the benefits of Red October HQ)

I just paste the custom build into my C:\Users\%UserName%\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 26\Plugins\madvr folder and still use Red October HQ.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #26 on:** May 29, 2020, 10:30:45 am »

Tons of great feedback. Much appreciated.

Chris

Chris Solo · « **Reply #27 on:** May 29, 2020, 12:44:59 pm »

OK I’m almost there I promise. I made a second parts list based on NVidia and based on an AVSForum post from last July that I’ve been reading. If you could be so kind as to take a look at this compared to the first one I made I would be ever so grateful. I do a lot of video editing work and I have always had Nvidia and been happy so I’d prefer that especially since 3D support should be fixed soon but I don’t want to get hung up on 3D because it is a fraction of a fraction of what I’ll be watching. Is any of this problematic? Thanks again in advance. The information you’ve all shared has been terrific.

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/bTmBp8

rec head · « **Reply #28 on:** May 29, 2020, 01:22:01 pm »

I'm not up to date on the optical drives but is that one of the ones that will rip UHD?

BryanC · « **Reply #29 on:** May 29, 2020, 01:28:46 pm »

Quote from: Chris Solo on May 29, 2020, 12:44:59 pm

OK I’m almost there I promise. I made a second parts list based on NVidia and based on an AVSForum post from last July that I’ve been reading. If you could be so kind as to take a look at this compared to the first one I made I would be ever so grateful. I do a lot of video editing work and I have always had Nvidia and been happy so I’d prefer that especially since 3D support should be fixed soon but I don’t want to get hung up on 3D because it is a fraction of a fraction of what I’ll be watching. Is any of this problematic? Thanks again in advance. The information you’ve all shared has been terrific.

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/bTmBp8

Personally I wouldn't buy an outdated socket. Stick to Intel 10-series or Ryzen 3000/4000. Also you will still want an m.2 nvme drive as opposed to the 2.5" ssd. The 3600 you listed in your first build was a better choice.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #30 on:** May 29, 2020, 02:05:28 pm »

Quote from: rec head on May 29, 2020, 01:22:01 pm

I'm not up to date on the optical drives but is that one of the ones that will rip UHD?

Good catch. It's not BUT I maintain a dedicated audio/video editing rig that I use to rip all of my content. The new HTPC will just be used for playback. I'm only throwing a drive in there in case for some strange reason I want to play an original disc for extras. I only rip the main file in MKV without the extras.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #31 on:** May 29, 2020, 02:10:01 pm »

Quote from: BryanC on May 29, 2020, 01:28:46 pm

Personally I wouldn't buy an outdated socket. Stick to Intel 10-series or Ryzen 3000/4000. Also you will still want an m.2 nvme drive as opposed to the 2.5" ssd. The 3600 you listed in your first build was a better choice.

I didn't realize I had reverted to the other drive. Thanks for pointing that out.

Chris

rec head · « **Reply #32 on:** May 29, 2020, 06:06:41 pm »

Quote from: Chris Solo on May 29, 2020, 02:05:28 pm

Good catch. It's not BUT I maintain a dedicated audio/video editing rig that I use to rip all of my content. The new HTPC will just be used for playback. I'm only throwing a drive in there in case for some strange reason I want to play an original disc for extras. I only rip the main file in MKV without the extras.

I might be in the minority here but I never use the HTPC to play discs. It is so much easier to just have a standalone player. It always works.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #33 on:** May 29, 2020, 06:49:56 pm »

Quote from: rec head on May 29, 2020, 06:06:41 pm

I might be in the minority here but I never use the HTPC to play discs. It is so much easier to just have a standalone player. It always works.

Probably so. I'm planning to retain my Oppo anyway which would eliminate the need for any disc drive in the HTPC. And if I am struggling to get 3D playback for whatever reason, I can always pop the 3D disc in the Oppo. Don't have a ton of 3D. I mainly wanted 3D ability because, for example, I have 'Gravity" in 3D but without Atmos. I also have 'Gravity' on 4K with Atmos but in 2D. I assumed (and we know how dangerous that can be) that I could mux the video from the 3D with the Atmos from the 4K for a 3D Atmos viewing opportunity. My editing rig has all the usual ripping software and will be in an environment more conducive to ripping and muxing (office as opposed to home theater room).

rec head · « **Reply #34 on:** May 30, 2020, 06:27:15 am »

I remuxed a few 3D movies with the ATMOS soundtrack and it was pretty easy. If you have an editing rig then you are probably way more familiar with that stuff and won't have a problem.

Chris Solo · « **Reply #35 on:** May 30, 2020, 01:10:58 pm »

Quote from: rec head on May 30, 2020, 06:27:15 am

I remuxed a few 3D movies with the ATMOS soundtrack and it was pretty easy. If you have an editing rig then you are probably way more familiar with that stuff and won't have a problem.

That's great to know. I figured it was doable.

Chris

Chris Solo · « **Reply #36 on:** May 30, 2020, 01:19:25 pm »

Quote from: rec head on May 29, 2020, 08:50:35 am

I gave up trying to keep up with using the correct Nvidia driver to keep 3D working and switched to using the Top and Bottom method. I don't notice a difference.

So Top Bottom reduces the vertical not the horizontal resolution? I have only watched physical discs with frame packed. The only other 3D format I have is a Side by Side version of Friday the 13th 3D done by a fan and it looks good for not being full resolution in each eye.

rec head · « **Reply #37 on:** May 31, 2020, 08:11:02 am »

I'm not an expert I basically just copy what more experienced people do. I use a 4K OLED not a projector. Even though I get half resolution my display is twice the resolution so it evens out and I get the full 1080. Make sense?

Chris Solo · « **Reply #38 on:** May 31, 2020, 01:18:46 pm »

Quote from: rec head on May 31, 2020, 08:11:02 am

I'm not an expert I basically just copy what more experienced people do. I use a 4K OLED not a projector. Even though I get half resolution my display is twice the resolution so it evens out and I get the full 1080. Make sense?

It does. And "copy what more experienced people do" is the home theater mantra that I live by!

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Author Topic: HTPC for theater (Read 5829 times)