Devices > Sound Cards, DAC's, Receivers, Speakers, and Headphones
DANTE: an overview of multichannel over ethernet
thorsten:
Hi there,
I'd like to introduce you to an additional way to get multichannel signals out of a PC for surround sound.
DANTE -what is this?
Wikipedia says: "Dante is a combination of software, hardware, and network protocols that delivers uncompressed, multi-channel, low-latency digital audio over a standard Ethernet network using Layer 3 IP packets"
See more on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_(networking)
It is similar to AES67 (and also compatible), another network protocol.
DANTE is nowadays often use at public concerts, because you don't need hundreds of XLR-cables running from the stage to the mixer: these signals are all digitized on stage and sent via a single ethernet cable to the mixing console!
It is more a pro-tool, but there are ways to use it in "our" consumer world. One of the ways I want you to show.
DANTE in home application
Here in germany, there is a small but active community, using DANTE as a highend alternative to USB.
(For those who are interested, here's the german forum and the dedicated thread: https://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7306. But be aware: the forum is focussed on highest music listening quality, including cable tests et. al ;) )
Anyway: because of this thread, I switched from my dual rme Fireface UC-USB setup to in total 14 ch out with DANTE. And I don't regret it.
What is needed - Hardware
As this is a network based system, you need network equipment.
- dedicated network card in your pc. Best practise is a Intel i210 chipset based card
- managed switch, as the bus isn't a daisy chain system. I use a Cisco SG-300-10. Why? Because there is a very comprehensive guide for correct setup, available from Yamaha: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/contents/proaudio/docs/dante_network_design_guide/index.html
- clients: this is the biggest field to chose from. A well known lineup is the Focusrite RedNEt series https://pro.focusrite.com/category/audiooverip. They were one of the first who supported DANTE.
Oh, and JBL just showed up with the SDP-55 Preamp, also with DANTE! Might not be a bargain...https://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/electronics/surround-processor-preamplifiers/SDP-55-.html
And here comes the "cheap" solution: they're compact units available from a swiss company http://www.micromedia.ch. These units only support 96kHz, but a 2ch RCA module costs only slightly more than 120€! There are also XLR and digital I/O modules available: https://www.micromedia.ch/?portfolio=aes67-dante-aoip-stereo-interfaces
Beside being so competitively priced, all modules also have an i2s-output integrated! I use these outputs to directly connect various diy twisted pear audio DACs and for the mains a diy DDDAC with fancy voltage regulators and even modified refence clock... ;)
But, you can also use the integrated DACs of the micromedia modules, they're not bad!
To get an overview of the companies, that support DANTE and what lieup they have, take a look on http://www.audinate.com: they are the developer of DANTE :)
What is needed - Software
There are 2 programms needed:
- DANTE virtual sondcard from Audinate: https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-virtual-soundcard
This software acts as an ASIO or WDM driver on your PC and connects MC to the DANTE network. The price is reasonable with 30$
This is how the main page looks like.
Pay attention, that I use my dedicated i210 network card with its own network address area for DANTE!
You can set up to 32 ch in/out for even big solutions!
Also, there're some tweaks with latency and buffer possible. These are my values in a 16ch-setup, no glitches, no problems. I know other guys with highly optimated Windows and only 2ch, that go down with latency to 1ms.
The second program is the freware DANTE Controller https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-controller
It is pretty straightforward. You can give every unit an individual name, see the network latency and any errors of the DANTE-network.
But the main function is the routing: if the DANTE virtuals soundcard DVS runs, you will see the 16ch in/out of the PC up top. Then, all the available modules are listed.
The only thing you have to do now is to map the outputs of the pc with the related modules, done! This can even be done while everything is running.
And, if you have a DIO-module with digital in, you can even connect an ADC and use a mic for measurement (far to the right in the screenshot).
Pros and Cons
+ very stable
+ minimal latency
+ the ASIO driver works flawlessly
+ easy routing (perhaps even to a second room, latency free!)
- a little bit of network knowledge is needed, even when the manuals are pretty forward
- no level adjustemnts: I came from rme with TotalFX, so I knew the routing, but the playback level must now be set by MediaCenter!
+/- the price: if you go with the pro stuff, it will cost you a fortune. But with the Micromedia modules, my complet setup including switch and cables was below 1.000€...
Conclution
Was it all worth it? For me yes! I got a good starting point with 7 Micromedia modules that was cheaper tham my 2 rme Fireface UC and was able to level up the (stereo-)components one by one. I am very satisfied with the sound! Itn't that the most important?
And, I think I am one of the very first who has a DANTE enabled amateur home cinema worldwide ;D
If you have any questions: that's what the forum is for!
Greetings,
Thorsten
JimH:
Thanks for taking time to write this up.
madbrain:
--- Quote from: thorsten on August 20, 2020, 02:57:42 pm ---What is needed - Hardware
As this is a network based system, you need network equipment.
- dedicated network card in your pc. Best practise is a Intel i210 chipset based card
--- End quote ---
Just curious - why this particular NIC ? I prefer to use my Aquantia 10 Gbps NIC (have 4 of them in different PCs and NAS).
--- Quote ---- managed switch, as the bus isn't a daisy chain system. I use a Cisco SG-300-10. Why? Because there is a very comprehensive guide for correct setup, available from Yamaha: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/contents/proaudio/docs/dante_network_design_guide/index.html
--- End quote ---
Thanks. Interesting document. This really seems more suitable to professional use rather than home use. I have over 60 speakers in my home between 16 pairs of ceiling speakers, an 11.4 home theater, and 5.1 systems in 3 different rooms. Unfortunately, DANTE seems unlikely to work with most existing network switches. Most off the shelf Ethernet switches use Energy Efficient Ethernet nowadays, and have no way to turn it off, and apparently, that's incompatible with DANTE. I have a lot of network equipment at home, some of which is managed, others not, and have not noticed latency problems with audio applications. My network is really complicated and heterogenous, going from a 10 Gig ethernet managed switch, to wifi ethernet bridges that perform at 100 - 400 Mbps, and powerline ethernet "AV1200" that really only provides about 10 - 20 Mbps of usable bandwidth (and doesn't even work at all in some rooms :-(). I have over 10 switches total and over 60 network devices looking at the DHCP reservation table in my Unifi controller. I have found that Chromecast audios work well across all these different networks, and can be synchronized. Unfortunately, the software support for them is fairly limited - it works best with Android apps, and not much else. It's 96 kHz, but stereo only, with no possibility of doing more than that, except playing 2 channel content synchronized across all 15 Chromecast.
--- Quote ---Pros and Cons
+ very stable
+ minimal latency
+ the ASIO driver works flawlessly
+ easy routing (perhaps even to a second room, latency free!)
- a little bit of network knowledge is needed, even when the manuals are pretty forward
- no level adjustemnts: I came from rme with TotalFX, so I knew the routing, but the playback level must now be set by MediaCenter!
+/- the price: if you go with the pro stuff, it will cost you a fortune. But with the Micromedia modules, my complet setup including switch and cables was below 1.000€...
--- End quote ---
Are you actually using it with multiple rooms ? This would seem to be one the main benefit of using ethernet cabling. If you only have one room, using the network is more questionable. I have a daisychained Firewire Audiofire 12 and Audiofire 8 that provide 20 in / 20 out at 96 kHz in my home office. That combo was much less than 1000 euros. I bought them used, though. I think I spent $500 - $600 total. The ASIO driver is outdated and no longer maintained. It works with MC32 bit but not 64 somehow. Firewire is hard to get to work in many modern PCs, though, even with a PCIe Firewire card. Hyperthreading and some CPU power management features have to be disabled in order for it to stay realtime without clicks. At some point, I will migrate to something else, but I haven't seen anything practical so far. Thunderbolt is not built into any of my many computers, and is not possible to add. Also, the Thunderbolt audio interfaces cost way too much $$$ anyway. Network DAC/ADC would seem like the way to go, but not if it requires replacing all the network switches unfortunately.
--- Quote ---Conclution
Was it all worth it? For me yes! I got a good starting point with 7 Micromedia modules that was cheaper tham my 2 rme Fireface UC and was able to level up the (stereo-)components one by one. I am very satisfied with the sound! Itn't that the most important?
And, I think I am one of the very first who has a DANTE enabled amateur home cinema worldwide ;D
If you have any questions: that's what the forum is for!
Greetings,
Thorsten
--- End quote ---
I'm curious how you use your system for home theater besides Media Center.
Do you ever stream content ? There are things you can't stream from a PC. Like Amazon 4K streams. In my 11.4 home theater, my Marantz SR7011 AVR remains the center piece, with the HTPC running MC attached, but only Chromecast Ultra, Amazon Firestick 4K, a satellite DVR, SACD players that pass DSD over HDMI, etc. An HTPC is great, but it would be severely limiting IMO if that's the only thing you can use with all your speakers.
Have you bridged your system with those consumer A/V devices, and if so, how ?
MazingerZ:
I have the same question as madbrain, what are the applications/use for the home/consumer ?
If we're talking about more that 8 channels of audio, that would mean Dolby Atmos / DTS-X / Auro-3D, which means HDMI to a receiver - the PC/JRiver cannot decode Atmos/DTS-X/Auro3D and send directly to a USB DAC or Dante, so you need to send to a receiver/HDMI.
If you're a professional mixer who creates music for Atmos, then yes I can see how this can apply if you use studio monitors (like the Genelecs mentioned in the German thread) that accept digital input. But those monitors accept digital input through regular AES/XLR, not Dante, so you first need to convert Dante (which requires additional hardware) to regular AES/XLR, and you still need to route an AES/XLR cable to each studio monitor, plus the power cable.
You might as well just send AES/XLR directly from the PC ( using PCI audio interface with AES out) instead of going through Dante.
If you're sending to another room, as mentioned in the previous post, then yes it would make sense to use the network/Dante.
You mentioned tne JBL SDP-55 processor with Dante -- but that's on the output (for example to amps that accept Dante).
The connection from the PC/JRiver to the JBL procesor is still regular HDMI.
If you want to send the JBL's output back to the PC, then yes you can use Dante/digital (i.e. you don't need to convert from an analog to digital to feed the PC).
But how many users need that ? Maybe if you want to record/save the Atmos music coming from the JBL receiver to regular (non-Atmos) files on the PC, so that you can play that song (which was originally in Atmos) directly on the PC/JRiver without going through a receiver.
I believe FLAC supports only 8 channels -- which format supports more than 8 ?
Or maybe you want to apply some processing (example Ozone) to the music coming from the JBL receiver in real-time on the PC, or use your PC as your 'Audio/video center', before sending the audio to the speakers (connected to the PC).
JBondoux:
Hi Thorsten,
You have clearly been able to get Dante network to work with JRiver.
Whenever I use it to playback multiple playlists simultaneously over separate channels I get this error:
--- Quote ---Something went wrong with playback.
Details:
Playback could not be started on the output 'ASIO' using '48KHz 2ch'.
This output format may not be supported by your hardware. You can use DSP Studio to change the output to a compatible format.
Also, make sure that your system has a valid sound playback device and that it is properly configured in playback options.
--- End quote ---
My Dante network is running on 48k and the Controller is patched correctly - and sees the various channels.
Interestingly JRiver only seems to see
--- Quote ---Dante Virtual Soundcard (x64) [ASIO]
--- End quote ---
as an option even when I choose WDM in the DVS.
Any pointers are welcome.
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