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Author Topic: Is my NAS set up correctly?  (Read 3318 times)

LP Audiophile

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Is my NAS set up correctly?
« on: September 27, 2020, 08:55:53 pm »

I think I have the setup correct, but I don't understand one aspect, which makes me wonder whether my setup is optimal.

I have my music files stored on a NAS which is connected by ethernet to a network bridge (i.e. a SoTM streamer). JRiver (27 of course) is loaded onto a windows 10 laptop which stores my library. The streamer is connected to a dac and then on to a preamp, amp and speakers. I am only concerned with music here.

So my question is - in this setup, does the music data "flow" through J River on my laptop (it would have to flow wirelessly, since my laptop has no ethernet attached)? Or is J River just directing the NAS to send the music data to the streamer?

Two sub-questions arise - is it better (or even possible) to have J River on the NAS (i.e. closer to the data, so this wireless flow through my laptop would not have to occur)? And is it normal to have a buffer of several minutes? In other words, if music is playing and I disconnect the ethernet cable from the streamer, thereby cutting the connection between the NAS and the streamer, the music keeps playing until the end of the track which means the data must be stored in a buffer in the streamer, correct? That seems like a long time for a buffer, but maybe that is the case.

Thanks!






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wer

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2020, 09:38:49 pm »

I think I have the setup correct, but I don't understand one aspect, which makes me wonder whether my setup is optimal.

It's not.

To be fair, there are many, many ways to make an audio system work.  Some are just as good as others, but some involve needless complication, and some adversely affect sound quality.  Maybe what you've done is the only way you could get things to work, given limitations or requirements you have not disclosed.

It's hard to tell exactly how you're making your system work, but presumably you are using DLNA for at least some of the links.  It sounds like you don't have the laptop physically connected to anything: it just has wifi and nothing else, is that correct?  If so, you're just using MC as a DLNA controller, and therefore its position relative to the files or NAS is irrelevant.  And if you have a hardware NAS box, you probably won't be able to get MC to run on it anyway. But it is not "better" to run MC on the NAS.

What you're calling "buffering" is due to the fact that DLNA is a file transfer system. The streamer loads the entire file from the NAS, plays it, then loads the next file when it needs it.

A lot of people would say the streamer component is superfluous, and would have MC fill that function.  Others would say that going from the DAC and then into the preamp is harmful: they'd just have the DAC drive the amplifier directly (depending on the DAC).

If you wanted the best sound quality and control, that would probably be achieved by feeding from MC directly to the DAC over USB, if your DAC supports that, eliminating both DLNA and the streamer box.

Personally I don't favor DLNA. I find it works poorly more often than it works well.  And by relegating MC to the position of Controller in a DLNA system, you're missing out on a lot of its capabilities.

But whether you have any other options or not depends on the equipment you have, and what adjustments you're willing to make.  You've told us nothing about that.  We don't know what kind of DAC or preamp you have, or what connections your DAC supports, or whether you're willing to connect MC directly to your DAC or preamp via either USB or HDMI.

So without much more specific info about what you have and what your limitations and requirements are, it's hard to offer much more than very generalized comments.  That said, your configuration sounds over-complicated for my taste; it's not what I would build.

Plus I'd say the topic "Is my NAS set up correctly?" is not the right question for here. This is a forum about specific audio software, JRiver Media Center. We can give you advice about the entirety of your system, audio components included and how it works with MC, but if you want specific advice about your specific NAS, you should ask on the forum of your NAS vendor.  But I don't think the question in the topic is really what you're asking; I think you're asking about the whole system, not just the NAS.

There are many people here who could give you very expert advice on this sort of thing, but you would have to be very explicit about exactly what gear you have, what you want to achieve, and what other requirements you might have or changes you are not willing to make.

Sorry if that's not the kind of answer you were hoping for...

-Will
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LP Audiophile

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2020, 06:26:04 pm »

Will, your response was very, very helpful. Part of my problem, as I am sure you can tell, is getting to a level of understanding where I can properly articulate my question.

Let me fill in a few details now that I think I understand what I am trying to ask!

My interest is in optimizing sound quality. I play ripped CDs which are stored on a NAS (QNAP). My stereo is a balanced audio technology preamp and power amp and Dynaudio speakers. My preamp is worth more than my car and while I see the theoretical attraction of bypassing the preamp, my preamp has always sounded better than the no preamp scenarios I have tested (when I have test other DACs, for example).

My DAC is a Schiit Yggdrasil. It has no preamp capabilities, but that is fine, it sounds great.

So far I think everything is optimized and there is nothing to change.

My concern is more about whether I have the front end set up optimally. I have two possibilities.

1) MC as a DLNA controller (loaded onto my windows 10 laptop using wifi only). The NAS loads files to a SoTM
sms 200 ultra neo streamer through an ethernet cable and then the SOTM streamer is connected to the DAC.

2) MC as a server on my laptop connected to the DAC by a USB cable. I was always told, and believe it to be generally true, that this setup is prone to electrical noise in the USB and is inferior to a "non-USB" setup like 1) above. It seems from Will's response that many might debate this claim of inferior sound from USB and I concede that I need to test this more in my system to decide for myself.

So here are my two questions.

On my 1) setup, if I uncheck the Media Network/Advanced/DLNA Server box (while leaving the Controller box ticked), I can't get the streamer to play music. This suggests to me that MC on my laptop is acting as a server (not just a controller) and may somehow be competing with my NAS as server and this competing data path creates noise. That's why I asked if putting MC on the NAS was desirable, but it sounds like it can't be done. In any case, maybe there is no problem with MC as the server in this scenario. Does this sound like I missing something?

Then my other question is are there other front end setups that come to mind other than 1) or 2) above I should try?

I hope that is clearer. Thanks again for your help.



 

 

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Scobie

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2020, 07:47:45 pm »

Quote
That's why I asked if putting MC on the NAS was desirable, but it sounds like it can't be done.

Hi Tom.

You can actually do this by running up Container Station on the QNAP, and grabbing the MC image from Docker Hub. I run this setup on my QNAP and it works quite well. You can manage it directly via a browser or run headless and use your Windows MC install as a client.

There are a few threads in the MC for Linux page outlining how to get started with this if it is something you want to try.

Also, and not sure if I understand your setup here when you say
Quote
This suggests to me that MC on my laptop is acting as a server (not just a controller) and may somehow be competing with my NAS as server and this competing data path creates noise


I believe this is referring specifically to the server configured in MC as the DLNA server, which in your case is the NAS, not necessarily the local file system on your PC. In any case as the files only exist on the NAS so it alone is acting as the server, not MC which is acting as a controller.

Also If you are using MC you should disable any DLNA controller functionality on the QNAP and let MC handle everything.
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LP Audiophile

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2020, 08:03:40 pm »

I think what I want is for MC running on my laptop to function only as a DLNA controller and nothing else. The MC library is on my laptop and the music files are only on my NAS.

So would the Container Station/MC Image setup be better than MC on my laptop? Better meaning, sound better?

And I wonder why unticking the Media Network/Advanced/DLNA Server box stops my streamer from functioning if I am only using MC on my laptop as a controller? I would have thought the DLNA server function of MC on my laptop is irrelevant if MC is only acting as a DLNA controller, no?

Finally, I agree I should turn off all controller functionality on my NAS. Is there anything more to this than disabling Multimedia Console?
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wer

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2020, 08:06:56 pm »

Will, your response was very, very helpful. Part of my problem, as I am sure you can tell, is getting to a level of understanding where I can properly articulate my question.

Let me fill in a few details now that I think I understand what I am trying to ask!
...
So here are my two questions.
...

Sure, that helps.

I'll start with a couple of general comments...

First, you have a good quality system that you've obviously invested some time and money in selecting. However, I wonder if you might find the Benchmark DAC3 to be more in the same league quality-wise with your preamp than the Schiit products.  So I do think there is a sound quality improvement to be had there.  And of course when it comes to speakers, that's where 90% of any system's sound quality lies, and your opportunities for improvement there are limited only by your budget.

When one is generally happy with the sound of a system, getting improved performance can become a game of diminishing returns, though.

Second, as we go into the specifics of configuration, I'll say this. I've spent decades working in the technology industry, especially in networking. I know how digital computer systems move data. When it comes to high-end audio, and "audiophile"-quality components, people have a lot of beliefs. For an example, there are people who believe and assert that they can hear the difference between one USB cable and another. I don't know or care what sort of audio related beliefs you may or may not have, or whether you are completely measurement driven or completely ear driven. I have zero interest in debating those sorts of issues with people, or in trying to convince any audio lovers of one thing or another.

A couple of things you didn't mention but which are important: how are you connecting the DAC to the streamer (toslink? USB? BNC?), and what requirements do you have for how the PC may or may not be physically cabled in. I'll have to make some assumptions.

So, based on your checkbox experiment, yes you are having MC perform as both DLNA server and controller. This is common, nothing wrong with it, as far as DLNA goes. (You should know this as you configured your streamer, you told it where to get its music).

The path for the music data in your config is as follows:
1. Music data resides in files on the hard drives of the NAS. -->
2. MC transfers a music file across the network to the laptop running MC. -->
3. MC (as the DLNA controller) tells the streamer what music to request.
4. Streamer requests a file from MC.
5. MC transfers the file across the network to the streamer. -->
6. Streamer decodes the file, and pushes the bitstream to the DAC via either USB or Optical or whatever (I guess you're using the optical toslink cable?) You didn't say which input on the DAC you are using.

Whether you use MC as the DLNA server, or a bit of embedded DLNA server software on the QNAP, is irrelevant from a noise perspective. (You might be able to run MC in a container on the QNAP, but this will not improve anything for you.) In both cases, the file is transferred intact to the DAC, and the DAC decodes it.  There is no impact on noise here.  The sole source of noise any noise must be between the innards of your streamer, to the outputs on the preamp. MC and the NAS cannot contribute.  I think that covers your first question.

For the second question...

My view is that connecting the laptop directly to the DAC, either through toslink or USB, and eliminating the streamer, is superior to what you are doing.  I distinguish this from what you're calling scenario 2 above, because MC is not a "server" here. In what I'm describing, there is no server, as DLNA would not be involved. MC would load files directly from the NAS file share, decode it, and push the bitstream to the DAC.

Why is this superior?  Well, if you want to pass totally unaltered, "bit perfect" audio, with no equalization or anything else, then the sound quality will be absolutely identical.  However, your system will still be much more responsive. You will have much more control about things like track changes, fast-forward, rewind, and everything else, as MC can execute all those functions directly. You will not have any DLNA problems. I looked back at your somewhat brief posting history, and most of your posts seem to deal with DLNA related problems. That does not surprise me; remember my opinion about DLNA.

Furthermore, if you're not addicted to the mental concept of "bit perfect" audio, then the config I describe becomes vastly superior, because it allows you the full wealth of processing that MC can provide: volume leveling, room correction, equalization, etc etc.  MC does all its processing as 64-bit data, so the quality level is extremely high.

Regarding your somewhat veiled question about cabling: you don't specify what "non-USB" connection you're using. Only Toslink (optical) provides total electrical isolation. Any other S/PDIF or AES connection over metal wire (whether copper, silver, gold or adamantium) has the potential for ingress of radio-frequency/electromagnetic interference.  Except for badly designed components, data transmission issues that can affect digital audio primarily come down to the issue of jitter. How much jitter is created, and how it is addressed, is very much device/implementation dependent. It is not strictly a function of physical cabling. One pair of devices connected via USB may have lower jitter than over Toslink. A different pair of devices might be superior over Toslink than the first two devices are over USB.  Before trying to assess/solve/minimize the problems of jitter in a system, you would need to gain a technical understanding of jitter and exactly how it is dealt with by the specific devices under consideration. This device-specific information is often not made available, and making useful measurements requires expertise.  And all this is predicated on the presumption that you can really hear it in the first place.  All of this jitter related stuff is beyond the scope of what we should get into further.

I hope this helps...
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LP Audiophile

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2020, 08:33:22 pm »

Very, very helpful, believe me.

The SoTM streamer I have only has a USB output to the DAC, so it has to be USB. I also have a raspberry Pi I used to use as a streamer which has AES, USB and so on, but I found the sound quality to be much better with the SoTM streamer than the raspberry Pi. So for now, let's assume I have no other choice than USB for the connection between the streamer and the DAC. Since there is no connection between my laptop and the streamer, this is what I meant by "non-usb" scenario (as opposed to having a USB from my laptop to the DAC and bypassing the streamer). Sorry for that confusion.

When you say that I configured my streamer to get files from MC you pose an interesting question. I configured the streamer to work in DLNA mode (as opposed to Roon or ShairPort or LibreSpot or MinumServer or Bubble Up Server or HQPlayer NAA, which are the other options). If there is some way to tell my streamer to just go the NAS to get the music files rather than go to MC to get the files (which would have been wirelessly transferred to mc) that seems to me to be simpler and therefore desirable. I realize that is an SoTM question, not an MC question.

What confuses me is that my NAS is connected by ethernet cable to my streamer and that cable is essential for the streamer to work, so I don't see how the files move through MC as a server. This is really the source of all my questions in the past and the source of all my confusion. On the one hand I want MC on my laptop to be just a DLNA controller but somehow it has to be setup as a DLNA server too to work with the streamer. On the other hand, if MC on my laptop is the DLNA server, and the files go through my laptop, why do I need an ethernet cable between the NAS and the streamer?



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wer

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2020, 08:49:35 pm »

Are you sure your ethernet cable going from the streamer isn't connected into your router or network switch, instead of the NAS?

Your laptop and the Streamer are obviously able to communicate over the network.  And you say the laptop is only on WiFi.

Since as best as I can tell that SoTM device does not have built in WiFi, then either the streamer is cabled to the router/switch and you were mistaken, or your QNAP device is forwarding packets across its two ethernet ports, the other of which must be connected by an ethernet cable to your router/switch. It is certainly possible to configure this way.

You would need to ask the SotM people about the specifics of configuring that device.  You've made your config pretty much as complicated as possible. :)

But that doesn't change my answer. When you use MC as the DLNA server, it sends the file across the network to the streamer. It sounds like you your case, you've put extra hops in the network, so those packets go over the air to your router, out an ethernet cable into one of the ports on the QNAP, out the other port on the QNAP and to the streamer.  But in that exchange the QNAP is strictly functioning as a network device.  If you cabled the streamer to your router/switch, the packets would go from the laptop, to the router, and then across the cable to the streamer.  Like I said, you seem to have made your setup as complicated as possible.  Maybe you should simplify, so you understand it better?  Did you set it all up, or did someone install it for you?
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LP Audiophile

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2020, 09:15:16 pm »

Excellent, now we are at the core of my problem.

It seems I did (cluelessly) hook up the streamer ethernet cable into a network switch (and then the router), rather than directly into the NAS.

So then how should I set this up? (Recognizing I need to start from scratch and believe me I appreciate your patience here).

I think I need the NAS to be connected to the network (otherwise how else would I access the NAS operating system?). On the other hand, I think it would be best for the NAS to be wired directly to the streamer (otherwise I have packets going all over the place). And I think I want MC on my laptop to only be a DLNA controller, not a DLNA server as well. Is there a setup that accomplishes all this?




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wer

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2020, 09:33:01 pm »

In networking, as with many things, there is often more than one way to skin the cat.

But what you did "cluelessly" was actually correct.

My opinion is you should keep the cabling as is.  All devices should be connected directly to your router or network switch. This eliminates needless hops between devices.  You do not have "packets going all over the place"; that just illustrates you don't understand how the network operates.

Your DLNA controller, MC, must be able to reach the streamer over the network.  Forcing all streamer-related packets though the QNAP creates an extra needless hop between the streamer and MC, and provides no real benefit. It would create additional latency and an additional point of failure, and an additional point of learning for you, as you would have to learn how to configure and troubleshoot that functionality of your QNAP. 

It seems your question and my advice was in vain; you've already decided you want to persist with DLNA and relegate MC to the controller, and I guess you've decided your system is optimal after all.  That's ok, it's your system and your prerogative.  I'm not going to spend time trying to talk you out of it. 

If you don't want MC to be the DLNA server, and you want to use DLNA, you would have to have the QNAP perform that DLNA server function.

You'll need to ask a QNAP person how to configure that functionality, and then you'll also have to reconfigure your streamer as well for the new configuration.

Good luck...
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LP Audiophile

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2020, 09:51:28 pm »

You are right, my understanding is the real problem here :)

If you tell me my current cabling is optimal, that works for me. I thought you were saying I should have connected the streamer directly to the NAS, but I see now that the streamer has to be connected to the network, so you weren't saying that at all.

I am much wiser now, and I thank you for that.



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Scobie

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2020, 10:37:55 pm »

Quote
So would the Container Station/MC Image setup be better than MC on my laptop? Better meaning, sound better?

Sorry don't really know the answer to that as this is the only way I've ever run it through my current Audio system. For me it's more convenience, the NAS is always on and MC is always running. They are using the same disk subsystem and the same I/O bus, It is cabled directly into my home network router so I guess you could argue there is one less moving part, but whether that makes a tangible difference from using a laptop as a controller I don't know.

And yes I think disabling Multimedia Services on the QNAP disables DLNA. It also saves some cycles by not having it index all the time.
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AuditGuy

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2020, 07:11:03 am »

i have created a similar setup. for what its worth, i share the view that a streamer can provide some isolation from usb. i switched from usb > dac to a streamer > dac setup and i considered it improved the performance.
i asked similar questions about the role of mc here

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,126695.0.html

and got similar answers. thought id share
good luck

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LP Audiophile

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2020, 07:43:10 pm »

Thanks AuditGuy for referring me to that link. It was very helpful.

My next comparison is MC on my laptop as controller but with the server software being minimserver on my NAS vs MC as the server software on my laptop.

I think JRiver would say that 'bitperfect' files would be delivered to the streamer in either case such that there should be no difference in sound quality. If I understand the 'plumbing' correctly, it seems to me that J River as the server on my laptop means the file does a little more traveling in comparison with minimserver as server on my NAS and that extra bit of traveling might give rise to some noise. I haven't convinced myself yet that this is the case as I don't believe I hear a difference.

I also tried the QNAP NAS multimedia server software, but no covers came up and albums are split into multiple files. What a mess! I will stay away from that setup.

Thanks again.


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wer

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2020, 09:20:24 pm »

...that extra bit of traveling might give rise to some noise. ...

No.
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LP Audiophile

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2020, 05:23:16 pm »

Excellent. I now have a lot more confidence that all along I have the optimal setup at my MC/NAS/Streamer end of things.

One little side thought to wer - at one point you had recommended looking into a Benchmark Dac3. That was on my list a few years ago when I was looking into new dacs. Unfortunately, I am not in the US, there is no local dealer and using mail order across borders to try audiophile equipment can be administratively tedious. Less important, but a small factor, is that I didn't need a headphone amp. I was able to try a few dacs of friends and settled on the Schiit Yggdrasil, which has worked out well. But I will certainly take your advice and try the Benchmark (and others) if the opportunity presents itself.

Thanks again.
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wer

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2020, 09:09:02 pm »

Glad to have helped.

The Benchmark DAC3 has always measured and reviewed well, and is very well regarded.  Before you look around, you might want to take a look at this site:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_DAC_Performance_Index/

The guy there does very extensive measurements, especially of DACs, and there's a whole new generation of DACs that are measuring phenomenally well, even though some of them are very inexpensive.

Also, if you're into, or might be getting into, multi-channel music, make sure you take a look at the write-up of the Okto DAC8 which is an 8-channel DAC.  It's a very impressive piece of kit.

Good luck...
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Scobie

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2020, 12:02:39 am »

Thanks for the heads up on the Audio Science Review site Wer, brilliant stuff and a real rabbit hole...!
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dtc

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2020, 12:42:17 pm »

Glad to have helped.

The Benchmark DAC3 has always measured and reviewed well, and is very well regarded.  Before you look around, you might want to take a look at this site:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_DAC_Performance_Index/

The guy there does very extensive measurements, especially of DACs, and there's a whole new generation of DACs that are measuring phenomenally well, even though some of them are very inexpensive.

Also, if you're into, or might be getting into, multi-channel music, make sure you take a look at the write-up of the Okto DAC8 which is an 8-channel DAC.  It's a very impressive piece of kit.

Good luck...

I use a Chord Hugo DAC, which, to me, has a fantastic and very neutral sound. The review in the link gives it very good technical scores and then does not recommend it because the reviewer does not like "the user interface, the looks, or the sky high price".  So, use the measurements but I would caution against the recommendations until you read the actual review and find out why the unit is recommended or not.  I am not sure the reviewer ever listened to the DACs.  The Hugo is getting a little old (2014/2015  I believe) but it still sounds awfully good.
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wer

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2020, 01:37:28 pm »

...then does not recommend it because the reviewer does not like "the user interface, the looks, or the sky high price".  So, use the measurements but I would caution against the recommendations until you read the actual review and find out why the unit is recommended or not.

I don't quibble if a reviewer doesn't like a product because of features, looks, interface, or price. These products aren't simply circuit boards: they are complete products, and all those things are perfectly reasonable qualities for preferring one over another or for liking them or not. And if I personally like a product, that doesn't prohibit other people from feeling differently. So I would caution against accepting any review or recommendation from any reviewer simply as a bottom line good/bad recommended/not-recommended sort of thing.  But there aren't legitimate reasons and illegitimate reasons: there are only reasons.

That site provides detailed measurements: that is its strength. A lot of reviews don't.
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dtc

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Re: Is my NAS set up correctly?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2020, 03:07:20 pm »

The link provided has measurement data and a recommendation. It took me a while to figure out that the recommendation was based on a separate review, which is not referenced on the chart and that recommendation was based on subjective views rather than the listed measurements. Hence my comment.  Of course, I prefer a review that actually listens to the equipment.
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