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[JimH]

Everyone
This is a preview thread.  Please don't expect to get detailed help from JRiver until we're further along.  It will be at lease several more weeks.

We're very grateful for all the feedback, which has been mostly very positive.  Keep it coming.

[madbrain]

Maybe it's a silly question but I use MadVR with the external 3DLUT calibration file I get with DisplayCal and it gives me excellent results.

Is it possible to be a future option on JRVR?

Curious - have you been able to use DisplayCal to calibrate your display running in HDR mode ?
I have tried the software on my desktop, but none of the monitors have HDR modes, so I did SDR only.

My projector in the home theater, on the other hand, an Optoma UHD65, does. So does the Samsung TV in the master bedroom. But AFAIK, the software that comes with my Spyder 5 Pro and i1 Studio devices won't do HDR. I tried DisplayCal on my desktop, again for SDR only. It worked, but was very slow, on the order of one hour of calibration per monitor per sensor. And I tried with 3 monitors and 3 sensors. I had a Spyder 3 Pro before, which has now died. As I recall, I found Spyder 5 Pro with its native software to give the best results for SDR content on monitors. i1 studio does great for paper calibrations, if you print photos. Spyder 5 Pro and DisplayCal don't handle papers.

[armyplace]

So far i'm very happy with this new renderer from JRiver. It hasn't taken me very long to get to a setting where the image is quite pleasing.

 I'd be interested to know what new features are being worked out currently.

For Target Gamut/Gamma using Red October JRVR, if set to Auto, how does it determine which is best for the display? Does it look at the source material and just output the content in it's highest/best setting?

[Hendrik]

PCs will usually output in one format and one format only, which is also what Displays then expect. Only if you know for a fact that your display expects something else should you change from Auto - which usually goes hand-in-hand with telling your Display/TV that another kind of signal is coming in.

Hence I will move those options into the advanced section as well, since the majority of cases you should just leave them.

[armyplace]

Thanks for your reply Hendrik,

I've just tried MC 28 using my projector and left all settings on default using Red October standard and it seems extremely dark. I had to jack up the color settings - brightness/contrast and saturation in order to get a good image. Was this to be expected?

PC levels have been set to 0-255 as required.

[Hendrik]

Red October Standard uses Microsofts EVR renderer. Its largely dependent on your drivers, so I can't really answer why it does anything like that. If you need help setting it up, open a new topic. This is about Red October JRVR only

[armyplace]

Hi Hendrik,

I've now switched to Red October JRVR renderer and made some changes to my Nvidia CP - RGB 0-255 full and also reset my projector's brightness back to 100 ( it was set to 30 due to a previous setting)

Everything looks nice and bright including shadow detail, tested 1080p/4k files (Black Panther). Panning is smooth with no dropped frames on rtx 3070.

Settings:
Target Gamut: Auto
Target Gamma: Auto
Peak dynamic nits: 130
Scaling: Jinc

Projector:
native 1080p running on windows 10, desktop set to 23hz

Will be interested to see what other settings people are using for the JRVR renderer.

[armyplace]

Just finished watching "A quiet place" UHD.

Mostly it looked beautiful but a couple issues:

1. I have bitstream via hdmi turned on and sometimes the pass through does not work. Opening the mkv file again and the sound will detect correctly.

2. Every so often, it starts to stutter. Pausing the video and playing again fixes this.

I'm using bt2390 tone mapping but will try hable next. I will purchase a licence now. It's already easier to get a great picture than madvr right now with the exception of sharpness!

Thanks for your efforts and Keep up the good work!

[jmone]

2. Every so often, it starts to stutter. Pausing the video and playing again fixes this.

There has been a lot of improvements to this over the last week which you should see in the next public release.

[armyplace]

There has been a lot of improvements to this over the last week which you should see in the next public release.

That's great to hear! Thanks for your work.

[jmone]

That's great to hear! Thanks for your work.

It's all Hendrik's hard work!  (I'm just testing)

[armyplace]

Kudos to Hendrik then!

Work is being done on 28.0.84


Where can I get build 83 please?

28.0.83
- Changed: Improved timeout in JRVR when detecting rendering glitches to allow a more graceful recovery.

[jmone]

Not all versions hit the public board, but the good news is they are released regularly.

[lello]

Recent and Upcoming Changes

28.0.84 (Upcoming)
- Changed: JRVR will report the actual screen refresh rate to VideoClock for more accurate timing adjustments. (Windows Only)
- NEW: The Playback OSD is rendered natively with JRVR. (Windows Only)

Will I be able to choose where to place the playback OSD and the menu OSD?
Currently the OSD is in the black bar at the bottom and I would like it to be in the active area.

Thanks

[Hendrik]

Where can I get build 83 please?

We usually release new builds to the public after a few days of testing, as long as we don't find any blocking issues. But we wanted to communicate upcoming changes to JRVR specifically a bit earlier then public availability to match the rapid development going on currently. You'll just have to be a bit more patient and it'll be available soon.

Will I be able to choose where to place the playback OSD and the menu OSD?
Currently the OSD is in the black bar at the bottom and I would like it to be in the active area.

Media Center positions the OSD, not JRVR, without really being aware where there is video content. It might be changed in the future, but for now the position or behavior won't change from before, it'll just be rendered directly onto the image instead of being an overlay that can disrupt playback (especially with HDR in fullscreen).

[lello]

Okay, I thought it depended on JRVR because with madvr this is possible.

Sin.

[ppataki]

Really great to see HDR10 passthrough, KUDOS!
Hopefully HDR10+ and Dolby Vision passthrough will follow soon....

I just would like to report a couple of bugs with subtitles when using JRVR HDR10 passthrough:
- the colour of the subtitles look somewhat pale, the colour you choose in the Subtitle Colour menu is not matching the colour displayed on screen, as if HDR was not enabled for them (with madVR they look fine)
- each time a subtitle is displayed there is 1 frame dropped

Thank you for checking these

[Hendrik]

Hopefully HDR10+ and Dolby Vision passthrough will follow soon....

Not likely. There are no documented methods to do so.

- the colour of the subtitles look somewhat pale, the colour you choose in the Subtitle Colour menu is not matching the colour displayed on screen, as if HDR was not enabled for them (with madVR they look fine)

In the next build, subtitles and other overlays will target a bit of lower brightness, which should allow them to properly use their colors.
An interesting tidbit that I noticed when comparing to madVR - madVR does in fact not properly render the subtitles in HDR, it just uses the SDR subtitles and shows them with no further changes, which makes them extremely bright and over-saturated.

With JRVR the aim is that subtitles in SDR and HDR look about the same, at least in future builds, and not be overly bright and shiny like the somewhat broken behavior in madVR.

- each time a subtitle is displayed there is 1 frame dropped

This is likely a performance issue of some kind. Especially at 4K, rendering subtitles can be a bit ineffecient currently. We're aiming to improve that situation in the future.

[armyplace]

Not likely. There are no documented methods to do so.

In the next build, subtitles and other overlays will target a bit of lower brightness, which should allow them to properly use their colors.
An interesting tidbit that I noticed when comparing to madVR - madVR does in fact not properly render the subtitles in HDR, it just uses the SDR subtitles and shows them with no further changes, which makes them extremely bright and over-saturated.

With JRVR the aim is that subtitles in SDR and HDR look about the same, at least in future builds, and not be overly bright and shiny like the somewhat broken behavior in madVR.

This is likely a performance issue of some kind. Especially at 4K, rendering subtitles can be a bit ineffecient currently. We're aiming to improve that situation in the future.

Great news about making subtitles less bright, I've noticed this myself with madvr.

I'll be using an anamorphic lens with my scoped screen. Can subtitles be moved into the rendered picture if they are situated where the black bars are? I am able to do this with my zidoo media player quite easily.

[ppataki]

Thank you for coming back to me, appreciate it

Not likely. There are no documented methods to do so.

That's very unfortunate 
Maybe it is a dummy question but does/will JRVR's tone mapping feature support dynamic metadata in the HDR10+ and Dolby Vision streams? That might help...

In the next build, subtitles and other overlays will target a bit of lower brightness, which should allow them to properly use their colors.
An interesting tidbit that I noticed when comparing to madVR - madVR does in fact not properly render the subtitles in HDR, it just uses the SDR subtitles and shows them with no further changes, which makes them extremely bright and over-saturated.

With JRVR the aim is that subtitles in SDR and HDR look about the same, at least in future builds, and not be overly bright and shiny like the somewhat broken behavior in madVR.

Sounds great, looking forward to it! 

This is likely a performance issue of some kind. Especially at 4K, rendering subtitles can be a bit ineffecient currently. We're aiming to improve that situation in the future.

I have an RTX2060 and there is no such performance issue with madVR
Were you referring to a performance issue with JRVR itself?

[Hendrik]

I'll be using an anamorphic lens with my scoped screen. Can subtitles be moved into the rendered picture if they are situated where the black bars are? I am able to do this with my zidoo media player quite easily.

For text subtitles there are some movement controls, but its not very fancy yet.
Its an area we plan to look into in the future to support moving into black bars, or out of, depending on the use-cases.

[DougHamm]

I'm loving the development of this feature, especially as madVR seems more like a dead product with each passing month.  One thing though...is there *any* chance of adding in the 3D features that Red October HQ has w/ madVR?  I have an LG passive 3D TV and still often enjoy MKV3Ds on it.  Though toggling between HQ and JRVR isn't the end of the world.  (Is there a way to automate that based on file extension?)

Cheers,
-Doug

[datdude]

Yes, but by either container or codec, not extension. Go to Tools > Options > Video > Video Mode > Advanced > Custom > Custom Video Mode Settings > Add a rule > Select your filter type and then enter the codec or container.

[Hendrik]

3D is not currently planned, sorry. Its such a special case in handling the video, and support in TVs and from graphics vendors is shrinking.

As for switch between JRVR and ROHQ, you can set up ZoneSwitch to do that, or use a custom video mode which lets you switch between renderers as datdude suggested above. Of course either method relies on your files being named consistently.

[DougHamm]

3D is not currently planned, sorry. Its such a special case in handling the video, and support in TVs and from graphics vendors is shrinking.

As for switch between JRVR and ROHQ, you can set up ZoneSwitch to do that, or use a custom video mode which lets you switch between renderers as datdude suggested above. Of course either method relies on your files being named consistently.

Yep, that did the trick.  MKV3D is the same container as MKV so I couldn't use the video options method, but ZoneSwitch worked like a charm!

[jmone]

FWIW, I've now tested JRVR on 5 different setups (all running Windows 11 with HDR set to be permanently on).  The results are excellent, even breathing new life into low end iGPU.  My summary is as follows:

- Intel NUC7i5 (Iris Plus 640) to a LG OLED TV:  When using HDR Passthrough, this setup can play up to and including UHD HDR 59.94fps material without dropping frames.  It does not have the grunt for tonemapping.

- Intel NUC8i5 (Iris Plus 655) to a Epson TW9300 PJ:  Same as the above, though the limitations on the Epson only having a 10ghz chipset mean all sorts of mucking around getting the best combination of settings (MC, Windows, Drivers) to work well.  In the end I'm sending all material as 1080p HDR and it is (finally) working well (see notes)

- 1660Ti to a Sony OLED TV:  No issues to report at all, works with Passthrough and Tonemapping.  I prefer Passthrough on this setup.

- 1660Ti to a JVC X7500 PJ:  No issues to report at all, works with Passthrough and Tonemapping.  I'm yet to decide if I prefer Tonemapping or Passthrough on this setup. 

- 3090 to a Philips HDR1,000 Certified Monitor: No issues to report at all, works with Passthrough and Tonemapping.  I prefer Passthrough on this setup.

Notes:
- Passthrough vs Tone mapping: I personally prefer HDR Passthrough on HDR Displays with relatively high nits.  The image looks great.  I'm yet to decide with my JVC projector if I'll tonemap or passthrough as I need to spend a lot more time with all the various combinations.  If you have an SDR Display then tone mapping is for you.

- Display Rate Change Delay:  If you are getting weird Audio or Video issues, check your settings in "Options--> Video--> Display Settings--> Wait after change (use if display changes slowly)"  I've always found that PJs change slowly and hence the HDMI chain takes some time to correctly re-establish itself / re advertise it's EDID.  On my Epson PJ I had to raise this to 10secs else the Audio would only be 2ch (not 7.1).

- Intel iGPU weirdness:  Another issue that became apparent on the Epson PJ setup with its 10GBit HDMI chip, is the way the Intel driver works.  It's a long story but the thread is here outlining the issues and fix if you happen to fall into the camp of using older devices that don't fully support all UHD frame rates on an Intel iGPU setup.

- Video Clock:  If your not using VideoClock then I'd really suggest you give it a go (Options--> Video--> General Video Settings).  You should get no frame drops or repeats as it resamples the audio to keep it in sync with the video (rather than the other way around).... well you will get a few at the very beginning of the playback but after that it is pretty much rock solid.  The only downside is that you can not use Bitstreaming, so for those with a speaker system above 7.1 that want Atmos etc then bit streaming is still for you (as decoding is limited to a max of 7.1).

In summary, Hendrik has done a terrific job with JRVR.  Of all the video renderers I've played with, JRVR not only gives great HDR playback but does so on the widest range of HW that I've seen.... even low end iGPU that till now was just not possible.  For those with dedicated GPU's you can pick and choose between passthrough and tone mapping depending on your what looks best on your display device (and there is plenty of Head Room for extra processing goodies I'm sure Hendrik has in mind).  For those with an iGPU, then HDR Passthrough is very very efficient and will be your go to.

[JimH]

Thanks again, Nathan!  Amazing job of both testing and reporting.

I think we've reached the point where we can drop the "preview" label.  JRVR works. 

Congratulations and thanks to Hendrik for this impressive work.

[SamuriHL]

I totally agree.  It has come a long way in a short time.  Really impressive work!

[murray]

- Video Clock:  If your not using VideoClock then I'd really suggest you give it a go (Options--> Video--> General Video Settings).  You should get no frame drops or repeats as it resamples the audio to keep it in sync with the video (rather than the other way around).... well you will get a few at the very beginning of the playback but after that it is pretty much rock solid.  The only downside is that you can not use Bitstreaming, so for those with a speaker system above 7.1 that want Atmos etc then bit streaming is still for you (as decoding is limited to a max of 7.1).

In summary, Hendrik has done a terrific job with JRVR.  Of all the video renderers I've played with, JRVR not only gives great HDR playback but does so on the widest range of HW that I've seen.... even low end iGPU that till now was just not possible.  For those with dedicated GPU's you can pick and choose between passthrough and tone mapping depending on your what looks best on your display device (and there is plenty of Head Room for extra processing goodies I'm sure Hendrik has in mind).  For those with an iGPU, then HDR Passthrough is very very efficient and will be your go to.

I wish and prey that someone would be able to make a video clock that will play Atmos without bitstreaming. I hate to bitstream to run my atmos as I just cant stand looking at all this dropped frames! PCM and video clock is an amazing thing especially on a 145" screen and my JVC NX9. Maybe one day someone will make a video clock to work with bitstream....

Do you think JRVR is a good as madvr with a 1080Ti card using NGU sharp? I use NGU sharp as with a very large screen I want the image to pop, anything less than NGU sharp just looks to soft on massive scope screens. I would move across to JRVR if I though it could match NGU sharp.

[SamuriHL]

The only way I'm aware of to pull that off is to use MAT 2.0 like the Apple TV does.  LPCM does not have the metadata required for ATMOS.  What MAT 2.0 does is decode it to LPCM but then adds the metadata for ATMOS to it.  But I don't believe the MAT 2.0 standard is available.

[jmone]

I don't know that anyone has tried but, I guess it would be possible to add/remove packets from a bitstream..... 

[SamuriHL]

No, it's not.  Not without breaking it.

[jmone]

Do you think JRVR is a good as madvr with a 1080Ti card using NGU sharp? I use NGU sharp as with a very large screen I want the image to pop, anything less than NGU sharp just looks to soft on massive scope screens. I would move across to JRVR if I though it could match NGU sharp.

You can always try JRVR and see how it looks, but there is no NGU Sharp ... at this stage.  Hendrik has said that once the basics are dialed in he would look at other options.  The good thing with JRVR is there is plenty of performance head room available for additional options.

[murray]

You can always try JRVR and see how it looks, but there is not NGU Sharp ... at this stage.  Hendrik has said that once the basics are dialed in he would look at other options.  The good thing with JRVR is there is plenty of performance head room available for additional options.

Yes I will try it when the development is finished but I think I need the latest version to do so dont I?
I have no problem buying the new version but dont want to stop the one Im on as I have so many settings in there that I dont want to transfer. I only use JR for my home cinema, no music or any of the other features. I must admit I just LOVE JR, its amazing!!!!

[jmone]

Yup, you will need the latest version.  I'm not sure how "old" your MC version is, but the good news the upgrade will copy across all your settings + leave the "old" version in place (which you can later remove when you are happy).

[murray]

Yup, you will need the latest version.  I'm not sure how "old" your MC version is, but the good news the upgrade will copy across all your settings + leave the "old" version in place (which you can later remove when you are happy).

Thanks so much I better buy it then
Were there Black Friday specials?

[jmone]

No idea on any BF sales!  The upgrade will copy the MC settings... but I'm not sure about any madVR settings you may have (you may need to manually copy the settings file from your old setup to new)... others may know better on this. 

[JimH]

Thanks so much I better buy it then
Were there Black Friday specials?

if you own a previous version, you can use it to upgrade at a discount.  Please read this:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,129290.0.html

[jmone]

FYI - One of my 1660Ti's was dropping frames with high frame rate HDR UHD material (the red boxs).  The "fix" for this was to:
- nvidia control panel --> manage 3D Settings --> Vertical Sync --> On
- nvidia control panel --> manage 3D Settings --> Power Management Mode --> Prefer Maximum Performance

[SamuriHL]

That's always the fix for nVidia cards and video rendering.  But it's a good thing to note.

[lello]

I think we've reached the point where we can drop the "preview" label.  JRVR works. 

You're right. After so many years I finally have a machine that just turn it on, choose the movie (DVD, BD, UHD) and everything works.

No more freezes, slowdowns, crashes etc. etc.

[fitbrit]

Thanks again, Nathan!  Amazing job of both testing and reporting.

I think we've reached the point where we can drop the "preview" label.  JRVR works. 

Congratulations and thanks to Hendrik for this impressive work.

I was getting periodic stuttering on my 1080Ti. However, after updating drivers to 496.xx, JRVR works really well. It also operates below the threshold needed to make my GPU fan spin up loudly. Very happy with this for personal use at least. Excellent work guys.

[IAM4UK]

After numerous experiments with various modes and settings, I've switched to JRVR in version 28.0.87, with Jinc scaling and HDR10 passthrough. Now, my Win11 system looks very good on my LG OLED, whether the source material is SD, HD, UHD+HDR... Thanks for the great work developing this render option!

[jmone]

Another tip that will help for those with "odd" Audio problems (MC complaining it can't start the Audio, or you are Missing Audio on some channels).  If you are using the Display Settings Automatic Change Feature to match your display's refresh rate to that of the content being played, you may need to set a value to "Wait after change".  The issue is some displays (especially PJ's) can take some seconds on a display rate change for HDMI Audio to be correctly re-established, and you want playback to be delayed till that has occurred.  On some of my setups I don't need any value set, on others (like one of my PJ's) it is now up to 10sec.

[armyplace]

Another tip that will help for those with "odd" Audio problems (MC complaining it can't start the Audio, or you are Missing Audio on some channels).  If you are using the Display Settings Automatic Change Feature to match your display's refresh rate to that of the content being played, you may need to set a value to "Wait after change".  The issue is some displays (especially PJ's) can take some seconds on a display rate change for HDMI Audio to be correctly re-established, and you want playback to be delayed till that has occurred.  On some of my setups I don't need any value set, on others (like one of my PJ's) it is now up to 10sec.

I think I may have this issue with my PJ. Sometimes I don't get any sound and will have to close JR and re-open the file to get audio working via hdmi bitstreaming. Will give this a try and report back.

[murray]

If I use bitstreaming I get from time to time a very loud screech in the startup of some films, PCM its always clean.

[lello]

According to what is written here, it seems that it is already possible to load an ICC or 3dlut profile: did I get it wrong?

[Hendrik]

No, those options are not available yet. But at least ICC should be coming soon-ish.

[davelr]

May I ask what is the purpose of the "Enable 10 bit output for SDR videos" option?

[Hendrik]

May I ask what is the purpose of the "Enable 10 bit output for SDR videos" option?

More bits is more better.
10-bit carries more details then the default 8-bit. But its only meaningful if your display can actually receive and properly process 10-bit signals, and can be detrimental if turned on when your display is not capable of this, hence it being an advanced option.