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Author Topic: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion  (Read 937 times)

jmone

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JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« on: April 22, 2022, 03:41:38 am »

Split from the JRVR Status, Plans and Upcoming Changes thread

================
Looks good! 

I've got a Q on calibration with ICC profiles generated from a Spyder/i1 etc for us on Win 11 with HDR On all the Time.  What is the correct process?  Do you create it with the Monitor set to HDR, and the OS set to HDR, or some other combination of Monitor and OS setting?
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jmone

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2022, 03:45:22 am »

....Just checked.  I've two Philips 436M6 1000Nit HDR monitors and I've generated ICM profiles loaded by Windows.  The process made the two monitors look the same (though they were purchased over a year apart). 
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Hendrik

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2022, 03:48:27 am »

ICM and ICC are the same thing, but lets keep calibration discussions to a separate thread once the support for that is available.
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jmone

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2022, 03:55:10 am »

Sounds good.  I've always had some 3rd party do the PJ/Screen calibration but do have a Spyder5Elite and an i1 Filmmaker Kit.  Never really understood if you should calibrate the output from the Player, the OS, and or the Display device itself, and how it all interacts between the three elements.  Looking forward to a new chapter in JRVR.
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Hendrik

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2022, 04:05:10 am »

Ideally the output of the player is color accurate to a reference, and the OS is just neutral, so you should measure the display and create a calibration profile, which then applied through the OS and/or player would result in "perfect" output - which you could confirm by measuring that output again.

To avoid issues with potential inaccurate player/OS output, you can of course use your target player to play test patterns for measurement. Manual pattern loading is really a slow process though, which is why madVR create the test-pattern-generator, but I doubt we'll have something like that for JRVR (anytime soon, or ever).

Creating a basic measurement with a tool like DisplayCal is really trivial these days, assuming you have a meter at hand. Advanced topics like HDR are another topic entirely. We won't be offering HDR pass-through calibration right now, it'll need some more time to figure out how that would work.
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jmone

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2022, 04:41:54 am »

Thanks - If I understand correctly,
- if you have a profile you could load it in the OS (and all apps including MC/JRVR will use it) or
- you could (for some reason I don't understand) just load it in MC/JRVR (so it is accurate but every other app is not)?

....and of course these days pretty much every TV/PJ is HDR capable and now Win11 lets you leave HDR on all the time..... so how to calibrate an "always on" HDR setup still needs to be thought about.
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Hendrik

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2022, 05:20:10 am »

ICC/ICM profiles can only be used if they are loaded in your OS, and it'll automatically get the profile from the OS to apply it. This is important because the OS will apply some corrections based on the profile, and JRVR then gets the "corrected" display characteristics from the ICC profile and adjusts the image to that.

If you want to calibrate without OS involvement, you have to use a 3DLUT.
On the topic of 3DLUTs, in the first version there will only be .cube 3DLUT files, which is a format also well supported by many calibration tools, but not madVR 3DLUT files, due to their proprietary format and because their decision to use limited range RGB clashes with the rendering flow in JRVR.
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lello

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2022, 03:53:40 am »


Creating a basic measurement with a tool like DisplayCal is really trivial these days, assuming you have a meter at hand.

Could you please tell me some tutorials on how to create an ICC profile with DisplayCal and X.Rite Colormunki Display?
Thanks
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bogdanbz

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2022, 01:33:54 pm »

Umm... it's a bit different how ICC profiles are used by the OS.

A display profile defines the characteristics of the display device: what are its primaries, white point, black point, etc. The display profile must be associated with your display device in the Windows Color Management application (press Start -> start typing Color Management) by having it in the list for the device and having "Use my settings for this device" enabled. The OS does nothing after you associate that profile (*), it does not alter the color rendering of applications. It's the responsibility of an application to do something based on it. That "do something" means the application will use either the color transforms provided by the Windows API or by some other color engine (like little CMS) to transform its RGB values to new RGB values which would give the desired human color perception on this display device.

Some of the Microsoft applications that come with Windows do make use of color profiles to change the colors of their output. Others do not. The Windows OS doesn't do anything by itself to applications (at least not to Win32 apps).

Now, there's a catch, related to my (*) in the statement above. ICC profiles allow to store gamma correction for the three primary colors in their VCGT (video card gamma table) tag. If a profile with this tag info present is associated with your display device and you have "Use my settings for this device" enabled, then Windows will use that info to load modified gamma ramps in the gamma tables of your graphics card. This means that indeed, in this case, there is a correction applied by the Windows OS itself that affects the color rendering of everything your video card outputs: of the Windows desktop and of applications.

It's not a "complete" correction, because in order to have a complete correction you need colors to be remapped too (from the gamut used by an application, like sRGB, to the actual gamut of your display device, according to a desired rendering intent). The color correction provided by the loaded gamma tables affects all colors indeed, but guarantees only neutral grays to show the right way (it's a "grayscale" correction). What does it mean the neutral grays are perceived the right way? It means they appear neutral (not with a reddish or greenish or blueish tint) and the luminosity is the right luminosity for a given gray level.

How close the other colors are to the desired rendering after this gamma correction depends on the characteristics of the display (how linear the display characteristic is, and they're usually not linear, etc).

The precision of these gamma ramps is also limited.

Some applications, notably games, will reset the info loaded in the video card gamma tables to unity when they start, which means neither those games nor anything else on the Windows desktop is color corrected anymore. Windows may or may not re-load the corrections after that application ends. There are other cases when Windows doesn't reload the graphic card gamma tables from the VCGT tag of the color profile, which is why color profiling apps such as DisplayCal come with their own tool that runs in the background (the DisplayCal app has its icon is in the taskbar) to reload the gamma tables from the profile VCGT tag to the graphic card from time to time.

The best way to have a calibrated display device, is to have a device that allows to upload a 3D LUT to them (like the LG OLED TVs). A 3D LUT allows to correct nonlinearities anywhere in the color volume (a "volumetric" correction) that corrects all colors, not only the neutral grays.
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lello

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2022, 10:10:35 am »

I have an ICC profile created with the Colormunki probe and the Calibrite software.

I noticed that if I change the Target Peak Nits with the ICC profile enabled, nothing happens not any value I choose while if the ICC profile is not enabled, by changing the TPN value, the brightness changes: is everything regular?
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Hendrik

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2022, 10:18:43 am »

The measured peak brightness in the ICC profile currently overrides the configured value, but I've been thinking about making our value take precedence again.
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lello

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Re: JRVR & ICC / ICM Discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2022, 10:48:28 am »

Thanks, the ideal would be to be able to choose
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