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[gulp]

When I check bitstreaming within DLNA settings, only up to DSD128 can be played flawlessly. When I play DSD256, there's mainly hiss and very faint music playing. My streamer/DAC does support DSD256.

Any idea what happens or has to be configured? Unchecking bitstreaming works then for DSD256, but all kinds of files sound much worse then as they are processed via JRiver, not the DAC, so that's no solution unfortunately.

[JimH]

DAC's don't always play what they claim to play.  It may also be different for DLNA vs a direct connection.  Did you try the manual or the manufacturer?

Concerning other files, make sure the server isn't converting to MP3.

[gulp]

Thanks, I ensured, the server isn’t converting.
The Streamer and DAC play DSD256 over Roon/DLNA.

So there’s no limitation in JRiver to DSD128 when using DLNA and checking the bitstreaming/DOPe box, right?

[JimH]

If you use DLNA, don't use bitstreaming.

[gulp]

Ok, but (at least for a high end system) this means unusably bad sound quality.
So is it really a limitation in JRiver to DSD128 by bitstreaming, so that for DSD256 in appropriate sound quality a different SW has to be used? Or is there a way to fix this in future?

[JimH]

It's not a limit of JRiver.  Other devices work up to 512.

[gulp]

Ok you mean other devices work up to DSD512 as DLNA source and with Bitstreaming checked? If so, then it in fact seems, the device has the problem (at least with JRiver).

[JimH]

Did you try a USB connection?

[gulp]

The PS Audio Airlens is a HDMI/I2S and coaxial only unit (towards DAC) and network DLNA/uPnP only (towards the server/PC). I use I2S connection towards the PS Audio DAC, which supports DSD256 native.

[JimH]

Thanks, I ensured, the server isn’t converting.
The Streamer and DAC play DSD256 over Roon/DLNA.

Roon isn't using DLNA.  It doesn't support DLNA. 

[JimH]

DAC's don't always play what they claim to play.  It may also be different for DLNA vs a direct connection.  Did you try the manual or the manufacturer?

?

[gulp]

Roon isn't using DLNA.  It doesn't support DLNA.

Sorry, my wrong assumption then.

[gulp]

?

Yes, the streamer can only be connected via DLNA/uPnP, not directly. It’s based on a Converse module CDM4140.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0672/2283/1394/files/AirLens_Manual_A-5.pdf?v=1693598741

http://conversdigital.com/kor/product/product01.php

[dtc]

The faint music and hiss is an indication that your DAC is not recognizing the DSD signal that is being sent. That is part of the DoP design. However, you should not be using DoP for DSD512. You need to use native DSD at that sample rate.

For DLNA, uncheck the Bitstream DSD (DoPE required) box in Media Server - Add or configure DLNA Servers- Advanced for the DLNA server you are using.

If you are using a direct connection to the DAC, you need an ASIO driver to do native DSD. WASAPI only works with DoP. Bitstreaming for DSD needs to be checked.

EDIT: It looks like the Airlens  supports DSD256, but not DSD512.  And, it looks like the Airlens supports DLNA but not a direct connection from JRiver or Roon.

EDIT: Sorry, you are only doing DSD256, not DSD512. My mistake.

[gulp]

I already configured DLNA server, that’s the only way I can connect. There I checked Bitstreaming and it gives the noise for DSD256 with faint music signal, but plays up to DSD128 flawlessly. As soon as I uncheck Bitstreaming within the DLNA configuration, DSD256 works, but sound quality is much worse (I don’t use any down or upmconversion).

I can only use DOP up to DSD128, up to DSD256 direct.

Do you finally say that from JRiver side, DSD256 by DLNA with Bitstreaming checked is possible with other HW? Or just direct connected?

[gulp]

EDIT: It looks like the Airlens  supports DSD256, but not DSD512.  And, it looks like the Airlens supports DLNA but not a direct connection from JRiver or Roon.

EDIT: Sorry, you are only doing DSD256, not DSD512. My mistake.

Exactly.

That’s why I try to find out if the limitation over DLNA+Bitstreamimg comes from JRiver or any other reason.

[dtc]

DSD256 with DoPE requires a PCM sample rate of 705 KHz per second, which the Airlens does not support. DSD128 with DoPE uses a sample rate of 352 KHz per second which the Airles does support. So, by the checking the DopE box, you are limited to DSD128. If you uncheck that box, MC will send native DSD, which the Airlens should support.

Not sure why DSD256 native does not stream well. How is your WiFi speed?  I am pretty sure others have used DSD256 with DLNA successfully, but would have to check. I don't think it is a MC issue, but possible a WiFI issue.

[gulp]

I thought checking the Bitstreaming box means the JRiver engine is not used and it’s sent directly and when unchecked, JRiver engine is used to decode…at least that was my explanation why unchecked sounded worse.

I use LAN connection, so it shouldn’t be an issue.

[dtc]

Actually, I believe unchecked sends the DSD in native mode, where checked it is converted to DoP.

Direct means it is not converted either to PCM or DoPE, but rather sent as native DSD.

If by LAN you mean hard wired Ethernet, then I do not know why it sounds worse.

[dtc]

Do you have Mode set to Original in the DLNA server setup. If it is converting DSD to PCM that could cause the high sample rate problem.

[gulp]

Yes I have…what should it be with Bitstreaming unchecked?

[dtc]

It should be original, so I am not sure what the problem is.  Does you DAC report what format it is getting?

[bob]

Yes I have…what should it be with Bitstreaming unchecked?

Audio Settings->Bitstreaming is meaningless when sending to a DLNA device.
Only the DLNA server settings are used.

[gulp]

It should be original, so I am not sure what the problem is.  Does you DAC report what format it is getting?

Thanks for your support guys, that's great!

It took some time until I verified my findings, so here we go:

1. When checking Bitstreaming under DLNA options and chosing "original" as format, the DAC shows it get's DOP as DSD64 or DSD128. When playing DSD256 files it shows it get's PCM384 and plays white noise with faint music signal.

2. When unchecking Bitstreaming under DLNA options and chosing "original" as format, the DAC shows it get's DSD as DSD64, 128 or 256 an plays the latter properly as DSD.




PCM from 2. sounds much worse than from 1. (a lot of ambient information is lost, bass is muddier etc.). I have no DSP or conversion activated.

Also DSD in general as far as playable from 1. sounds a bit better than from 2.is my perception.

I have no clue why this is the case, but my only solution is to play PCM (and maybe DSD under 256) with Bitstreaming checked (for sound quality reasons) and DSD256 with Bitstreaming unchecked.
If you have an idea what's going on, please advise...

By the way:
Situation 2. means, JRiver reacts fast on clicks from JRemote
Situation 1. means, JRiver reacts mostly very slow and partly not at all to clicks on tracks from JRemote. Just as with a bad network connection.
Any idea why?

[dtc]

1. When checking Bitstreaming under DLNA options and chosing "original" as format, the DAC shows it get's DOP as DSD64 or DSD128. When playing DSD256 files it shows it get's PCM384 and plays white noise with faint music signal.

2. When unchecking Bitstreaming under DLNA options and chosing "original" as format, the DAC shows it get's DSD as DSD64, 128 or 256 an plays the latter properly as DSD.

This makes sense, except for option 1 at DSD256. That should be PCM 705 KHz although it clearly is getting downsampled somewhere. It may be a setting for 705K in DSP Study, but it may just be something about the fact that the lens does not support 705 KHz. But, it does not seem to matter since the Airlens does not support 705 KHz.

Option 2 seems to be sending the expected native DSD.

I do not understand why you hear the difference in option 2.

PCM from 2. sounds much worse than from 1.

Option 2 does not send PCM, it sends native DSD, so I am not sure about this statement.

Not sure where to go for DSD256.

[gulp]

Option 2 does not send PCM, it sends native DSD, so I am not sure about this statement.

I thik I wasn’t clear enough here:
This has nothing to do with DSD files. What I meant is, that then PCM files sound clearly worse than PCM files in option 1.

Does the Bitstreaming setting for DSD change anything in pure PCM playback to your knowledge?

[gulp]

Now that I know, for sound quality reasons I want to play everything except DSD256 with Bitstreamimg checked under DLNA options, does anyone have a hint for a kind of quick toggle macro for switching on and off, or a kind of rule based configuration for DSD?

And another topic:
Can someone tell where I can choose to vary the volume of the DAC with JRiver‘s volume or not? I had it but lost it with whatever setting I don’t remember…

Thanks!

[JimH]

Investigate Zones and Zoneswitch on our wiki.

[gulp]

I understand this is for question one…thanks much, will do!

[bob]

...
Does the Bitstreaming setting for DSD change anything in pure PCM playback to your knowledge?

No.
With PCM, whether or not bitstreaming is selected, you are sending the original file verbatim.

[gulp]

That’s really strange, it definitely sounds noticeably different on a resolving setup in terms of air and 3D, bass as well as midrange ease.

[gulp]

One more insight from my tests:
DSD256, played with Bitsreaming unchecked in DLNA settings, sounds worse than the same track as DSD128, played with Bitstreaming checked.

This could be some difference in the JRiver code or some difference of the DAC playing DOP vs. DSD direct. But as PCM also sounds even more worse when played with Bitstreaming unchecked, I guess it’s rather a JRiver difference (even if there’s no obvious hint on this and PCM is processed the same with/without Bitstreaming checked).

[thecrow]

My understanding of how DLNA works, when the mode is set to original, is that the file is passed to the renderer/DAC for it to process.
MC is not processing the audio in anyway; it is just behaving as a file server.
When bitstream DSD is ticked that tells MC to take the dsf file and repack the DSD as a sudo PCM file (DoPE) (this is not converting to PCM) which is then passed to the DAC to unpack it back into DSD.
So, any comments about sound differences are puzzling especially regarding PCM, I am not saying you are mistaken, it is just not obvious to me what is happening to produce these differences.

[gulp]

It is indeed puzzling. Especially as the DOP containered DSD sounds better than the direct DSD. Even more puzzling with PCM and how the Bistreaming setting should have an effect there....but it does and it's obvious (but certainly not audible with low/midfi or even a lot of high end equipment..the difference is mainly in the ambience/decay/reverb area. No idea if any code thing is affected in the background...only the programmer can tell.

[JimH]

My understanding of how DLNA works, when the mode is set to original, is that the file is passed to the renderer/DAC for it to process.
MC is not processing the audio in anyway; it is just behaving as a file server.

More or less correct.  Not exactly a file server, but similar.

When bitstream DSD is ticked that tells MC to take the dsf file and repack the DSD as a sudo PCM file (DoPE) (this is not converting to PCM) which is then passed to the DAC to unpack it back into DSD.

Bitstreaming should have no effect when using DLNA.  The wiki discusses bitstreaming.

[JimH]

It is indeed puzzling. Especially as the DOP containered DSD sounds better than the direct DSD. Even more puzzling with PCM and how the Bistreaming setting should have an effect there....but it does and it's obvious (but certainly not audible with low/midfi or even a lot of high end equipment..the difference is mainly in the ambience/decay/reverb area. No idea if any code thing is affected in the background...only the programmer can tell.

I think your device doesn't work with 256 over DLNA.  You should talk with the manufacturer.

[gulp]

Bitstreaming should have no effect when using DLNA.  The wiki discusses bitstreaming.

But it definitely has, when playing DSF files, the DAC shows DOP when it’s activated and DSD when not.

[gulp]

I think your device doesn't work with 256 over DLNA.  You should talk with the manufacturer.

It does with Bitstreaming unchecked. With Bitstreaming checked it doesn’t, because streamer and DAC just support PCM384.

[bob]

It does with Bitstreaming unchecked. With Bitstreaming checked it doesn’t, because streamer and DAC just support PCM384.

Bitstreaming here meaning ONLY the setting in the DLNA server settings (that says DoPE). The one in the Audio zone settings has no effect here.

Most networked DACs only supported DoPE for DSD. That's why the option is there. It doesn't change the DSD in any way, just wraps it into a PCM container and the DAC then strips the wrapping when playing back to get the native DSD.
These days there are more devices that support native DSD. If yours does, you should choose original format and not check the bitstreaming option.

Now the issue is that DoPE requires more bandwidth than native DSD because of the wrapping for the same material.
Usually a DAC that can play native DSD256 can only play DoPE to DSD128.

[dtc]

Bob - It seems like this device and some DACs do support native DSD through DLNA and that can cause confusion as to how to set that up in the DLNA server. It would be nice to have an additional option for native DSD in the DLNA options.

Bistream DSD via DLNA (requires DoPE DAC)
Bistream DSD via DLNA (requires native mode DAC)

Or maybe, just add Uncheck for Native DSD to the current option - something like

Bistream DSD via DLNA (check for DoPE and uncheck for Native DSD)

This does not come up often, but it does happen and can cause confusion.

Thanks.

[bob]

Bob - It seems like this device and some DACs do support native DSD through DLNA and that can cause confusion as to how to set that up in the DLNA server. It would be nice to have an additional option for native DSD in the DLNA options.

Bistream DSD via DLNA (requires DoPE DAC)
Bistream DSD via DLNA (requires native mode DAC)

Or maybe, just add Uncheck for Native DSD to the current option - something like

Bistream DSD via DLNA (check for DoPE and uncheck for Native DSD)

This does not come up often, but it does happen and can cause confusion.

Thanks.

Good suggestion. I'll add (check for DoPE and uncheck for Native DSD)

[dtc]

Good suggestion. I'll add (check for DoPE and uncheck for Native DSD)

Thanks. I guess that does raise the issue if unchecking actually guarantees bitstreaming, or does it allow DSP study to make changes. If so, maybe a new bitstreaming for native DSD option may be necessary.

[gulp]

Bitstreaming here meaning ONLY the setting in the DLNA server settings (that says DoPE). The one in the Audio zone settings has no effect here.

Most networked DACs only supported DoPE for DSD. That's why the option is there. It doesn't change the DSD in any way, just wraps it into a PCM container and the DAC then strips the wrapping when playing back to get the native DSD.
These days there are more devices that support native DSD. If yours does, you should choose original format and not check the bitstreaming option.

Now the issue is that DoPE requires more bandwidth than native DSD because of the wrapping for the same material.
Usually a DAC that can play native DSD256 can only play DoPE to DSD128.

Yes I agree and understand, the Bitstream/DoPE checkbox in DLNA settings just stands for DoPE.

Anyway my problem is, that for whatever reason, if it’s unchecked, everything sounds worse (although it shouldn’t). Even DSD256 direct then sounds worse than DSD128 DopE.

[gulp]

Thanks. I guess that does raise the issue if unchecking actually guarantees bitstreaming, or does it allow DSP study to make changes. If so, maybe a new bitstreaming for native DSD option may be necessary.

Unfortunately I don’t fully understand…would this mean you could provide a new mode that does Bitstreaming for native DSD and this could mean it sounds as good as the Bitstreaming for DoPE we now have up to DSD128 in my case?

I didn’t understand if Bitstreaming and DoPE (or direct) can be combined flexibly and what that means..and if we currently just have DoPE with Bitstreaming and direct without Bitstreaming and if the new option would mean Bitstreaming direct as a new mode.

So far I thought direct never means Bitstreaming, just DoPE does.

[bob]

Unfortunately I don’t fully understand…would this mean you could provide a new mode that does Bitstreaming for native DSD and this could mean it sounds as good as the Bitstreaming for DoPE we now have up to DSD128 in my case?

I didn’t understand if Bitstreaming and DoPE (or direct) can be combined flexibly and what that means..and if we currently just have DoPE with Bitstreaming and direct without Bitstreaming and if the new option would mean Bitstreaming direct as a new mode.

So far I thought direct never means Bitstreaming, just DoPE does.

It would be just an information addition.
I see absolutely no way to explain what you are hearing if you have your DLNA server setting to "original format"
It's just sending a file to your renderer.
Maybe your renderer doesn't like the mimetype or something but if it IS playing the original file why should it sound any different???

[gulp]

Yes, it makes no sense, but I hear it clearly. Maybe my HW likes DOPE better than direct for whatever reason.

[blgentry]

This setup is extremely complicated. Note that the DLNA renderer here is not a DAC.  It is *connected* to a DAC.  This means that many things could be happening after the DLNA device receives the data and then sends it to the DAC.

Brian.

[amsco15]

I’m following this conversation with interest.  There is a somewhat parallel thread on the PS Audio site.  I assume some of the same posters, different user names, are involved.

I don’t view a separate streamer feeding a dedicated DAC that complicated or unusual.  There are dozens of dedicated streamers available.  I use a sonore signature rendu device as a DLNA renderer (also for Roon) feeding a PS Audio mkii DAC.  I haven’t tried high rate DSF files but assume it would work direct or DoPE.

Certainly agree that lots could be happening.  Decently likely that it’s the airlens.  Just a guess based upon my two prior conversdigital based renderers.

One thing I agree on, the term bitstream to mean DoPE is confusing.

Just my $0.02

[gulp]

Yes I also posted my findings there.

The Mk II is also limited to DOP128, so it should be the same result with it. DSD256 also has to be played direct.

Just try to play a very airy and spacious sounding PCM file (I use AIF) with and without DoPE checked if you hear a difference. The DSD difference is a bit smaller.

[amsco15]

FYI…the PSA site says the mkii supports DoP256 for i2s and usb inputs.  Limited to 128 for dual aes and 64 for single aes and spdif.