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[Sky King]

Hi, I am a long time user of JRiver MC and have had issues that I have been unable to resolve when sending data to my Windows10 PC connected via USB to my Terminator+/GAIA system.

The problem is that I'd like to pass DSD512 to the Denafrips equipment without JRiver MC doing a DSD to PCM conversion, DSD512 (8x) to PCM 2.8MHz, and send it directly as DSD rather than having to encode to 4xDSD or 8xDSD.  Is it possible to do this?  I am using the tailored ASIO Thesycon USB driver.

Also, when I set encoding to 4xDSD the sound is normal but when I set the encoding to 8xDSD the sound stutters and jerks, etc.  Is 8x beyond the capability of my PC to process (I am using about 30% of the processor when encoding at 4x or 8x).

Thanks for your help!

[Awesome Donkey]

You shouldn't use DSP Studio > Output Encoding > Output Format for DSD, it'll always do a conversion with a PCM step in the middle. Instead, you should really enable and use DSD bitstreaming when trying to playback DSD tracks and keep PCM tracks as-is because when converting to DSD there's always going to be a lossy PCM conversion step in the middle. Even with DSD to DSD conversions (e.g. DSD256 to DSD512) there's always a PCM conversion in the middle as well, so it's basically DSD256 > PCM > DSD512 in that case, and that's unavoidable.

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD

Keep in mind the DAC has to support DSD512 via native DSD in order to play it back. As far as I know, there currently isn't any DACs that support DSD512 over DoP because they don't support PCM sample rates high enough to support it. Usually with DoP DSD256 is the current limit, and for DSD512 playback you have to use native DSD. Now if your DAC doesn't support DSD512 at all (via native DSD), you will have to convert it in order to play it back, and that's also unavoidable. I'm going to assume since you were doing DSD512 (8xDSD) upscaling, that your DAC supports DSD512.

Now, since you're using an ASIO driver (as I don't have time to look up the spec sheets for your combo system to see what it supports) make sure ASIO is the selected audio output used in MC and that Bitstream DSD in DoP is unchecked in MC's Options > Audio > Device Settings. This ensures native DSD is being used with ASIO.

Next go into DSD Studio > Output Format > Output Encoding and set it to None, this is very important to avoid any and all conversions. With DSD bitstreaming it's sent off to the DAC as-is and it does the decoding and whatnot. Finally enable DSD bitstream in MC's Options > Audio > Settings > Bitstream option set from None to DSD. That should hopefully do it.

Also, when I set encoding to 4xDSD the sound is normal but when I set the encoding to 8xDSD the sound stutters and jerks, etc.  Is 8x beyond the capability of my PC to process (I am using about 30% of the processor when encoding at 4x or 8x).

DSD conversions, especially the higher the DSD rate is (and if it's multichannel or not) are really the most resource intensive tasks Media Center can do, so this is exactly what it means. If you experience issues with playback like stuttering and jerky playback, this indeed means PC being used to convert whatever to DSD512 (8xDSD) isn't powerful enough to handle the on-the-fly conversion.

[Sky King]

Awesome support Awesome Donkey!  Enabling bitstreaming/DSD did the trick.  By the way, the Denafrips T+ DAC can do DSD1024 if and when some appropriate files are available.

Thanks again!

[davewave]

That was an excellent overview, thank you.

Still seems to me that Media Center ideally would be able to extract the DSD information on the fly from a SACD ISO file.  Right now we have to do the DSD extraction outside of JRiver in order to avoid the unfavorable step of converting to and from PCM, which removes the benefits of DSD vs PCM.   

Concurrently, it would be nice if JRiver could natively create DSF/DFF files (or whatever the preferred nomenclature might be) from the SACD ISO to avoid using Sonore ISO2DSD (and subsequent add ons like SACD extract).

I know this seems to be tilting at windmills; but JRiver caters to audiophile wannabees....

[blgentry]

I haven't played an SACD ISO in a while, but the last time I did, using a DAC that supports DSD, it played as DSD.  No PCM conversion or anything.

It's possible my memory is off.  Being over 50 is making me less confident in my former steel trap of a memory.  It's now more like a rubber toy.  It mostly works, but you just can't be sure can you? 

Anyway, perhaps someone else can comment.  I'm about 90% sure that SACD ISOs play as DSD in MC.

Brian.

[Daydream]

Anyway, perhaps someone else can comment.  I'm about 90% sure that SACD ISOs play as DSD in MC.

Of course it does. MC was able to play SACD in ISO since MC17. 

[blgentry]

MC can play DSD to DSD DACs via USB and via DoP over DLNA (network).  If you are talking about an AVR that has DSD capability *and* you want to play back DSD over the HDMI connection, there is no PC software that can do that.  The only supported DSD via HDMI is from stand alone SACD disc players.

I'm not sure what you are asking for.  DSD as DSF files or as ISOs play the same in MC.

Brian.

[Awesome Donkey]

davewave is referring to the need to extract DSF/DFF files from a SACD ISO outside of MC using an app like sacd_extract if you want individual tracks. MC can't do that, unless doing a conversion with the PCM stage in the middle.

At least that's what it seems like to me. Having MC support individual track DSD file extraction from a SACD ISO without conversion is one of the top things in my wish list, along with being able to repack DFF to DSF (and vice versa) by just changing the container and not doing any conversion.

[blgentry]

davewave is referring to the need to extract DSF/DFF files from a SACD ISO outside of MC using an app like sacd_extract if you want individual tracks.

But why would you do that?  MC can play individual tracks from an ISO.  I haven't done it a lot, but I've definitely played the middle tracks, by themselves, from an SACD ISO, as DSD.

Brian.

[Awesome Donkey]

Because for some (like me) there's a lot of waste inside a SACD ISO, e.g. multichannel tracks which are useless to me. There's also metadata which can be embedded inside a DSF file, versus SACD ISOs relying on sidecars for this. Plus for those who use DSD-over-DLNA (and DLNA in general) and with DLNA being a file-based system, SACD ISOs aren't exactly feasible there so depending on the user's setup sometimes it's a necessity to use individual tracks. If MC could handle extracting individual tracks from a SACD ISO without any sort of conversion (and repackaging of DFF to DSF or vice versa) it'd be that much closer to being "feature complete" for DSD.

There's no downside to using individual tracks either. As long as you're not using a bugged, older sacd_extract which introduces pops at the beginning of DSF files when extracting, it just works nicely with individual tracks, even gapless playback with albums with tracks that segue with each other (e.g. the Pink Floyd SACD/DSD releases). I personally like individual tracks for everything too, so I always extract them from the SACD ISO then put the ISO away somewhere MC can't somehow import it accidentally. I'm not a fan of images like ISOs at all, whether it be SACDs, CDs, DVDs, BDs, etc. You get the idea.

[davewave]

davewave is referring to the need to extract DSF/DFF files from a SACD ISO outside of MC using an app like sacd_extract if you want individual tracks. MC can't do that, unless doing a conversion with the PCM stage in the middle.

At least that's what it seems like to me. Having MC support individual track DSD file extraction from a SACD ISO without conversion is one of the top things in my wish list, along with being able to repack DFF to DSF (and vice versa) by just changing the container and not doing any conversion.

This!

[blgentry]

Plus for those who use DSD-over-DLNA (and DLNA in general) and with DLNA being a file-based system, SACD ISOs aren't exactly feasible there so depending on the user's setup sometimes it's a necessity to use individual tracks.

So MC does not play SACD ISOs, individual tracks, via DLNA?  Is that what davewave is asking for?

Brian.