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[mattkhan]

OK, will be great if it can be done in an open manner that lets a user provided filter give the info required to drive it

[JimH]

Matt,
I think you know that we don't intend for JRVR to be used by other applications.  I hope you understand.

[mattkhan]

You misunderstand as it's not another application

I'm talking about a directshow capture filter to use as channel within MC television. I can already use the microsoft provided one for the card but that only supports stereo audio and doesn't expose the colourspace in a way that lets a renderer understand it, you have to use the api provided by the card manufacturer to do all that. Hence write one and then be able to use MC to fully access the card capabilities.

Put simply, it's exactly what Yaobing is doing for the blackmagic cards (which I don't use because they have limited support for the resolution/frame rate output by my cable box. I can't imagine why you'd want to restrict support to a particular card but obviously it's your software so that's your choice.

[mattkhan]

We are working on HDR metadata.  It is still not clear how we are approaching it.

regardless of whether you make it public api or not, I'm curious what are the downsides of the method of packing data into IMediaSideData (https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/blob/81c5676cb99d0acfb1457b8165a0becf5601cae3/include/IMediaSideData.h) are? it seems commonly used and pretty straightforward

[mattkhan]

FWIW I have my filter functional now and it seems to at least play in MC & I can see that JRVR is tonemapping without changing settings when fed with appropriate data so not sure you need to do anything other than simply integrate their API as a capture filter?

I haven't tackled attempting to handle changing format yet, e.g. my cable box (a virgin 360 aka LG horizon) will switch from sdr to hdr when I go from normal tv to something like apple+, atm I just plan to use its function to overlay an image as OSD to say "restart playback" but would JRVR cope with this? e.g. does it support https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/directshow/dynamic-format-changes ?

[Hendrik]

JRVR is fine with dynamic format changes, if you need to change the allocator due to frame size or format changes, you may need to flush though (so all frames are returned to the allocator). Feel free to refer to LAV Videos format change logic https://github.com/Nevcairiel/LAVFilters/blob/master/decoder/LAVVideo/LAVVideo.cpp#L1500-L1589

[mattkhan]

thanks for the link, will try to adapt/copy

[jmone]

I still think an encoder is going to be needed if you want to pause, record etc.  That uncompressed video stream bitrate is too high to write out to disc effectively and the resultant file is full of dropped frames.

[Yaobing]

What you are saying is that the hard disk is the limiting factor here.  A compressor and a decompressor shift load to CPU. That is what I thought too, as time-shifting writes many files to disk and then reads them back for displaying.

[Yaobing]

Regarding HDR metadata, I posted the following a few days ago:

BMDDeckLinkSupportsHDRMetadata is 1
BMDDeckLinkSupportedDynamicRange is 1610612736 (HDRStaticPQ, HDRStaticHLG)
Found IDeckLinkHDMIInputEDID interface
bmdDeckLinkHDMIInputEDIDDynamicRange is 536870912 (HDRStaticPQ)
Found IDeckLinkStatus interface
bmdDeckLinkStatusDetectedVideoInputDynamicRange is 0 (SDR)


These are the static info that I found from API, and the result was for jmone's device. What I did not know was whether we need to deal with metadata for each frame. As far as I know, the WDM capture filter does not carry the metadata, so how do we pass the metadata? I suppose we need to synchronize the video frames that go to the renderer via DirectShow filters with what we find with the API?  That is why I thought a complete re-writing of the system (not using their WDM capture filter, like mattkhan is doing) is necessay?

[mattkhan]

It is transmitted per frame though clearly it changes rarely so I guess you could write a transform filter to sit on top of the provided capture filter (though in my experience, dealing with the media type and the filter negotiation is where all the work actually is, capturing the frame is simple in comparison)

[jmone]

What you are saying is that the hard disk is the limiting factor here.  A compressor and a decompressor shift load to CPU. That is what I thought too, as time-shifting writes many files to disk and then reads them back for displaying.

Kinda.  We are capturing uncompressed Video (RGB) and the data rates (see table) will be in many cases well over 10 Gbps Vs playing "normal" compressed Video (HEVC, AVC, MPEG, AV1 compressed files, discs, streams) which is normally well under 1 Gbps.  These uncompressed data rates:
- Can be too large to write out to a file in real time (eg dropped frames)
- Are too large to then be later played over a std 1Gbps network connection
- Takes up far too much disc space

My suggestion would be to write the uncompressed video stream via an encoder to a file (say MP4 using HEVC, AVC, whatever) and then play that as with any other "normal" compressed video file. 

[alext77]

Hello.

Are you talking about DeckLink Mini Recorder 4K or DeckLink Quad HDMI Recorder ? Both ? Another BM product, in this case which one ?

Thanks.

[jmone]

I was testing with an UltraStudio 4K Mini, but it should work with any of their Capture cards/boxes that supports their SDK.  Keep in mind that each devices has their own HW config and limitations, such as:
- DeckLink Mini Recorder 4K - Max is UHD @ 30fps
- UltraStudio 4K Mini - needs a thunderbolt connector
etc

Note: None of these devices "allow capture from copy protected HDMI sources". 

[alext77]

I was testing with an UltraStudio 4K Mini, but it should work with any of their Capture cards/boxes that supports their SDK.  Keep in mind that each devices has their own HW config and limitations, such as:
- DeckLink Mini Recorder 4K - Max is UHD @ 30fps
- UltraStudio 4K Mini - needs a thunderbolt connector
etc

Note: None of these devices "allow capture from copy protected HDMI sources".

Thank you 

[alext77]

Hello

I m about to buy a Blackmagic DeckLink Quad HDMI Recorder. My understanding is it might work or not, but would  jriver team be ready to integrate this capture board in jriver knowing that I can provide my feedback to help the development ? If yes I m ready to take the risk to buy it.

[Yaobing]

We are indeed working on improving the support of Blackmagic Design devices, including the device you are considering buying.

[Yaobing]

It is transmitted per frame though clearly it changes rarely so I guess you could write a transform filter to sit on top of the provided capture filter (though in my experience, dealing with the media type and the filter negotiation is where all the work actually is, capturing the frame is simple in comparison)

So, if the metadata changes at a random moment, we just pass the new data to the renderer.  Does the renderer need to know which video frame this is for, or starting with which frame? That was what I meant by "synchronization".

[mattkhan]

If you were to implement this as a transform filter then you would see each frame and would update as and when it changes (and then have to renegotiate the media type with the renderer). Hendrik already confirmed it but I can see jrvr and madvr both support this on the fly changing of media type without issues.

As long as their API exposes this info without needing to read the entire frame then it seems doable to me (but as noted actually reading the frame is easy so might be simpler just to write your own source filter instead)

[alext77]

We are indeed working on improving the support of Blackmagic Design devices, including the device you are considering buying.

Hello, Thanks. I have ordered a Blackmagic DeckLink Quad HDMI Recorder. I知 willing to help if it makes any sense for jriver development, I will tell you once I知 ready.

[Yaobing]

Thanks.

[mattkhan]

fwiw anyone who wants same functionality using a magewell pro card can refer to https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,140134.0.html

[Yaobing]

Nathan,

Please test this JRTelevision DLL.

This is about setting video format before playing.  You are going to get a pop-up dialog when starting up the device.  I will move it to Configuration window later, after we confirm it works.

You get two combo boxes. The first one lets you choose a connection method, i.e. HDMI, Component, Composite, etc.  The second one lets you choose display mode - a combination of pixel format (YUV, RGB etc.) and display (HD, 4k, progressive or not).

I only implemented the following pixel formats:

"8BitYUV"
"10BitYUV"
"8BitARGB"
"8BitBGRA"
"10BitRGB"

Selecting anything else likely will not work.

Known issue: the dialog window hides behind the main window after a second or so. You have to Alt-Tab it back. So in the end it probably will only appear on the Configure window.

[jmone]

Thanks Yaobing.  Had a play, and kinda weird and I've attached a log that should how
- 1st Play: Using the BMD filter.  The pop up boxs came up (which they should not as this one is all automatic and does not need manual config).  You can select anything, then after OK, the UltraStudio changes to the correct format and I get Video and Audio just fine.  On stop, it leaves the UltraStudio in that format.
- 2nd Play: Using the Decklink Driver.  No matter what resolution I selected, the UltraStudio is put into 1080p mode.  This of course only gives me an image if I'm sending 1080p and a black screen if I'm sending UHD.

PS - Windows freaked about the RAR file.  Claimed it was a "severe" threat!   Seems I lived.

[Yaobing]

Thanks Yaobing.  Had a play, and kinda weird and I've attached a log that should how
- 1st Play: Using the BMD filter.  The pop up boxs came up (which they should not as this one is all automatic and does not need manual config).  You can select anything, then after OK, the UltraStudio changes to the correct format and I get Video and Audio just fine.  On stop, it leaves the UltraStudio in that format.

I will refine it so it will not be done for WDM devices.

- 2nd Play: Using the Decklink Driver.  No matter what resolution I selected, the UltraStudio is put into 1080p mode.  This of course only gives me an image if I'm sending 1080p and a black screen if I'm sending UHD.

I hoped this would work.  Will look at the logs.

PS - Windows freaked about the RAR file.  Claimed it was a "severe" threat!   Seems I lived.

Sorry about that. I will use ZIP next time.

[jmone]

NP on the compressed file.

Good news is that it does look like it is showing all the supported options of the UltraStudio and you are successfully setting the Ultrastudio to change to a particular format.

[jsmith967]

We are indeed working on improving the support of Blackmagic Design devices, including the device you are considering buying.

I too can help with development as I have a Decklink 4K Recorder mini

[Yaobing]

- 2nd Play: Using the Decklink Driver.  No matter what resolution I selected, the UltraStudio is put into 1080p mode.  This of course only gives me an image if I'm sending 1080p and a black screen if I'm sending UHD.

It turns out that the format was not set, because of a bug. Please try this new DLL.

[jmone]

  - It Works!  Well done.  Let me know if
- you want a log
- test yet on SDR (709) vs HDR (HLG, PQ)
- etc

Thanks
Nathan

[jmone]

I too can help with development as I have a Decklink 4K Recorder mini

You should be able to add this as a Device under Television --> TV Options --> Manage Devices and they will be (if it is the same as what I see)
- Blackmagic WDM Driver : This "just works" but only under Windows.  If you have a signal going into your Decklink then "play" this channel you should see and hear it in MC just fine.
- Decklink Video : This is an API driven approach that should work regardless of platform, but requires the user to select what the stream is.  This is the bit that Yaobing is working on at present.

[Yaobing]

- It Works!  Well done.  Let me know if
- you want a log
- test yet on SDR (709) vs HDR (HLG, PQ)
- etc

Thanks
Nathan

Thanks Nathan.
Right now, HDR is not involved. You can just try setting format to different ones and see if they all work (those I listed a few days ago, YUV and RGB types). Yes please provide a log.

[jmone]

Here are a couple of Logs:

UHD (2160/50p) : This offered me the choice of
- 8BitYUV : Works
- 10BitYUV : Not expected to work as it is not on your list.  Result is a black screen, and the UltraStudio is put into 1080p50 mode.

FHD (1920/50p) : This gave me all of your support formats plus a few more
- They all worked and I played them in this order in the log. 8 YUV, 8 ARGB, 8 BGRA, 10 RGB ... and then for "fun" 12 RGB (and even this one worked...but I've got the feeling it just did not switch any mode but it was hard to tell). 

Also, in the JRVR it always showed that the Input was always 8-Bit RGB regardless of what I used above.

FWIW - As usual it also reports with unknown colour space info and still can't see in the OSD what the input FPS.

[alext77]

Hello.

I have installed a Blackmagic DeckLink Quad HDMI Recorder in my Windows 10pro PC computer.
I do my tests with a device allowing to output up to 4k hdr with LPCM stereo/multichannel or 5.1 bitstream
I get smooth video capture from BM software but it does not work for audio and there is no setting available.

In JRiver 33.0.47:
With Blackmagic WDM Driver:
-4k23 8 bits 444 is ok but I think there is an issue 16/235 vs 0/255
-I could not get audio working whatever the format set at the source

With Decklink Video driver:
-limited to 1080p, I could get 1080p23 10 bits 444 working and I think there is an issue 16/235 vs 0/255
-I could get audio working with stereo format but with a big sync lip issue.

How can I help you guys for improving all of this ?

Thanks.

[jmone]

  Welcome and good timing (as I'm going to be away for a bit soon)!

Yaobing is the one developing it, and I've just been testing using my BMD UltraStudio 4K Mini and feeding it from a cinema camera. 

If you want to test the latest work Yaobing has done, then you will need to copy the DLL from Yaobing's post (5 above) into the MC install directory (say C:\Program Files\J River\Media Center 33), then do testing and provide some logs.  You will find in the MC logs what your device reports as being supported.... but these logs can get big quickly.

The logs would be useful for Yaobing to find out why you are not getting any audio on the WDM Driver (which just works for me but I've really only tested 2ch PCM).  That said, the focus so far has been getting the Video side working with the Decklink API. 

[alext77]

Hello.

I知 happy for helping. I live in France, time is GMT+1, so don稚 be surprised if my answer seems delayed. I should able to provide my feedback in few hours about the dll above. First I need to understand how I can set jriver for creating a log file.

[alext77]

Hello,

Many things to report but without log file for the moment.

I知 still not able to get audio with BM WDM driver. If I go to audio pin I can get audio during les than 1s when I click on Ok button for leaving the Window audio pin configuration.

Now the cool thing with decklink video driver :

With a 1080p23 10bRGB I can get a smooth video and LPCM 2.0.
JRVR needs to have renderer queue deactivated otherwise there is a big issue for audio syncing and video rendering is not smooth.
Anyway, I had to increase the audio sync at 1500ms instead of 200ms that I use when watching a movie from my NAS server.
LPCM 2.0 is well played in 7.2 and audio goes to my VST plugin dirac as usual.
Finally, there is no issue with video level, it was my 3dlut which was not applied due to conditions not met for selecting the good profile, it痴 now solved.

Otherwise I have tested the DLL, and I was only able to get 1080p23 10bits RGB working.

I think there is a lot of work to do both with video and audio.

Tell me how I could help. Thanks

[JimH]

Does WDM audio work with a web browser?  It may not be set up correctly.  If not, please read the wiki topic again.

[alext77]

Does WDM audio work with a web browser?  It may not be set up correctly.  If not, please read the wiki topic again.

Hello. Sorry but I don稚 understand. How can I connect my HDMI capture device to a web browser ?

Edit : if you speak about this wiki page https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WDM_Driver
Yes it works fine.
Does it mean that I need to use JR wdm audio renderer as active renderer in Windows for testing the wdm driver of my hdmi capture device ?

Edit 2 : I think the answer is yes. The JRiver architecture is quite new for me I need to learn, I will retest in 3 hours

[JimH]

WDM, as I meant it, is our driver, not from another source.  What are you referring to when you say WDM?

[alext77]

WDM, as I meant it, is our driver, not from another source.  What are you referring to when you say WDM?

I知 referring to the WDM driver from Blackmagic. When I select my hdmi capture card through TV section in JRiver, I have 2 possibilities either to use blackmagic wdm video/audio capture or decklink video/audio capture.

So, when I知 referring to WDM in this thread it is about the blackmagic driver.

[Yaobing]

Sorry for being slow lately. I got bogged down with a different issue for the last few days.

Indeed, JRiver's WDM audio driver is not involved here. We are talking about Blackmagic WDM Capture device for video capturing.

[alext77]

With decklink video capture:

1080p23 capture works when I select 10BitRGB through DLL, LPCM 2.0 works fine
2160p23 capture works when I select 8BitYUV through DLL, LPCm 2.0 does not work, it is noisy.
I cannot test LPCM 5.1, the device upstream the capture card is not able to provide it.

Would it be possible to allow audio bitstream by sending the audio captured to the appropriate decoder ?

[Yaobing]

Here are a couple of Logs:

UHD (2160/50p) : This offered me the choice of
- 8BitYUV : Works
- 10BitYUV : Not expected to work as it is not on your list.  Result is a black screen, and the UltraStudio is put into 1080p50 mode.

FHD (1920/50p) : This gave me all of your support formats plus a few more
- They all worked and I played them in this order in the log. 8 YUV, 8 ARGB, 8 BGRA, 10 RGB ... and then for "fun" 12 RGB (and even this one worked...but I've got the feeling it just did not switch any mode but it was hard to tell). 

It turns out, only 8bitYUV worked. All other formats failed at setting the filter's video pin format. The pin continued to output 8bitYUV, giving you an illusion that it worked.

Not sure what the issue was. It could be that I wrote the media type structure incorrectly. There is a minor issue with the way I specified the media type (forgetting to initialzed the structure so the target rectangle had some random numbers. It does not seem to be the cause as the 8bitYUV worked. I will post a modifed DLL for you to test.

The second possibility is that the format is already set and the DeckLink Video Capture filter would not allow change after it is loaded. That is a bit of strange though.

Also, in the JRVR it always showed that the Input was always 8-Bit RGB regardless of what I used above.

This is because there is an AVIDecompressor filter involved. It converted the YUV format to RGB.

[Yaobing]

With decklink video capture:

1080p23 capture works when I select 10BitRGB through DLL, LPCM 2.0 works fine
2160p23 capture works when I select 8BitYUV through DLL, LPCm 2.0 does not work, it is noisy.
I cannot test LPCM 5.1, the device upstream the capture card is not able to provide it.

Would it be possible to allow audio bitstream by sending the audio captured to the appropriate decoder ?

Audio is decoded with LAV Audio Decoder, which handles almost any format.

[alext77]

Audio is decoded with LAV Audio Decoder, which handles almost any format.

Yes I know but I don稚 see LAV audio decoder involved when I look at the filter list reachable through right click with the mouse. If I remember well the list is :
JR audio renderer (in grey color)
JR video rendere (in grey color)
AVI decompressor (in grey color but I知 not sure for the exact name)
Decklink audio capture (in black color)
Decklink video capture (in black color)

This list is different than the one I can see when I play a movie (rip blu-ray in mkv for example) from my NAS and in general LAV audio d馗oder is there.

[mattkhan]

Why do you need to choose a format as opposed to use whatever format is being sent by the source?

[alext77]

Why do you need to choose a format as opposed to use whatever format is being sent by the source?

My request is to make the support by JRiver of BM device better as this thread is claiming. Today we know LPCM 2.0 works, I知 trying to find a way for sending LPCM 5.1 and I know my source can send 5.1 bitstream natively.

For bitstream I believe the captured audio needs to be sent to LAV decoder but I can be wrong.

I知 just here to try helping but I think I have not well understood the purpose of this thread.

[mattkhan]

my Q was to yaobing really as I gathered the current implementation lets you choose the format, my Q is why would the user want to choose oppose to just read whatever is on the stream and then display it based on whatever your output settings say

[jmone]

Not wanting to put words in Yaobing's mouth but BlackMagic offer two different options with their capture cards:
- WDM Windows Direct Show Filter:  All automatic (or it should be).  Nothing to set (and nothing can be set).  This has been working for a while now.  Being Direct Show it will only work on Windows.
- Decklink API:  They also have a full API that works on any platform.  This is the part that Yaobing has been working on.  Yaobing has so far got the code so MC will query the BlackMagic device to see what video formats it supports (as various devices have different capabilities) and a way of then letting the user selecting the format. 

There is still a whole bunch to do.
- Look at the Audio side on what formats are supported, selectable etc
- Encoding the RGB output so it can be recorded etc without dropping frames (as most of these devices don't have a HW Encoder Option)
- Working out stuff like why alext77 is not getting audio with WDM

[mattkhan]

My question is why would you want something other than what the source provides?

Ie you have some source device, it will.have it's own configuration that controls what it outputs. Why would you want the capture to do anything other than pass that through to MC which deals with anything required to fit the output format?

It's all I did with the magewell SDK so just wondering what I am missing, if anything.