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Author Topic: What makes the world go round  (Read 3159 times)

NickM

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What makes the world go round
« on: December 27, 2003, 11:37:59 am »

End of another long week, so I thought I would post an update on the layman’s view of the developing MC machine…

Did anyone use Visio before it was taken over by Microsoft?  I can honestly say that it was the only piece of software that I have ever used that required no recourse to the help manual – it was really intuitive.  I have been using MC and have a number of capable, and not so capable, users in our family that enjoy listening to music.  I love the product, I like the responsiveness of forum moderators – but…

This is never going to be a mainstream ( hence profitable for the owners ) product until my father-in-law can use it.  I hate, detest, abhor, vilify using a Microsoft product, especially when it restricts my listening freedom and track my usage – but Microsoft offers something that is more simple and is easier to cope with.
 
MC MUST take a note from their book – perhaps a set of “beginner” features that can be expanded upon later.  Something that just works out of the box.  Trained as an engineer, I was always advised if one couldn’t solve the problem, to simplify the question.

I strongly advise the MC developers to take a cold towel around their heads and think carefully about what this product should do.  Look at hardware competitors ( e.g. KISS players ), look at Microsoft’s media player and think what MC can do better.

Don’t get me wrong, I am using, and will keep, MC for some time, but to succeed you need to differentiate or excel.  Look at the digital media market; is it driven by portable players, by file sharing & ripping, or by media management?  My guess is it used to be the former two but is becoming the latter.

Enough of this post.  Please see the wood for the trees and set a long term goal for MC that we can all contribute towards.

nick
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LisaRCT

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2003, 05:59:24 pm »

Hi Nick,
What you say does have some merit, but can you cite some specific  possible improvements?
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KingSparta

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2003, 06:05:32 pm »

Quote
This is never going to be a mainstream ( hence profitable for the owners ) product until my father-in-law can use it.

Thats funny.
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nila

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2003, 08:13:29 pm »

Nick,

I kind of think the oposite to you to be honest :)

WMP9 is free, it's designed to be a light use media player and is pretty basic and works out the box.
It's when you start wanting any power out of it that you start running into problems.
At that point you start looking for something with more power, with more UMPH!
You THEN discover MC and are willing to pay the extra money for the product that gives that little extra, with that extra ability to tweak, customise etc.

For those that want a basic item that's super simple why would they ever consider paying $40 for something when they can use WMP for free?
They pay for the complexity and power! :)


Having said that, as Lisa said, if you mention specific things to help beginners though then I'm sure they'll be more than happy to listen and take in ur ideas.
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modelmaker

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2003, 10:35:39 pm »

Quote
They pay for the complexity and power
I did pay for Power not for complexity(at least not intentionaly), which is why I am still using 9.0. It's powerful without being overly complex. I'm still apprehensive about stepping up to 9.1 or 10 and their complexity. I am quite comfortable where I am; powerful and less complex!
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zevele10

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2003, 04:43:13 am »

-=-=I did pay for Power not for complexity(at least not intentionaly), which is why I am still using 9.0. It's powerful without being overly complex. I'm still apprehensive about stepping up to 9.1 or 10 and their complexity. I am quite comfortable where I am; powerful and less complex!  -=-=-=

It can be one of my post.
You are right.
Of cause can be hard to get  Power without any complexity.
But must be a way to made complexity user friendly.

I cannot burn with 9.1 or 10
And my new format ,MPC , do not play in other 'taging' friendly program.
So i use now 9.0 , here i can tag easy , and i see ,understand what i'am doing.

I do not have XP ,but i saw the Full Windows Media Player in action at a friend's place.
WOW ! As a free player ,this is very very good.
Of cause not as complete as MC , but more 'advanced' that many other players ,free or plus.
 
 
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technobarbie

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2003, 04:57:58 am »

And the problem with making programs more intuitive is that the interface suffers, and the powerusers usually can't figure them out. ;D ZoneAlarm is an example in my opinion.
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NickM

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2003, 01:49:14 am »

OK – this is a difficult task, especially now with familiarity of the software, so let’s go back to the beginning.   Taking the current incarnation of MC, I am assuming that all the functionally is OK, we just need to re-arrange the interface and  presentation.

First, let us divide the functionality of the product into 3 main areas;-
1.   Library,
2.   Player and
3.   Tools.
In this instance, Tools are not things related specifically to management of the Library or Player.

Looking at the MC9, under the toolbar menu, the following are Library functions:-
1.   File, Library
2.   File, Export Playlist
3.   File, Export All Playlists
4.   Edit, Tag Info
5.   Edit, Copy,
6.   Edit, Select All
7.   Edit, Invert selection
8.   Tools, Import Media,
9.   Tools, Acquire Images
10.   Tools, Library Tools
11.   Tools, Image

The following are Player functions:-
1.   File, Open Media
2.   File, Open URL
3.   File, Quick Play
4.   Player – all except display options

The following are Tool functions:-
1.   Edit, Add View Scheme
2.   View, List style
3.   View, Media Mode
4.   Player, Display Options
5.   Tools, All except accounted for above

Generally, it appears that there has become a blurred distinction between the Player and the Library.

Next, re-group all the ridiculously named mini-me, mega-me, hairstyle, party mode, list styles together.  This really is a lamentable confusion for all and even for the experienced users, it lacks general customisation in some areas with too much in others.

A lot has been said on these “display” issues in the forum and there may be no right ( or wrong! ) answer.  So, I suggest going back to the drawing board literally.  Perhaps a  new way of presenting the various displays.  For my 2cents worth, I would suggest a “Normal” view, a “HTPC” view and a “Screen saver” view.  Each of these can be customisable with skins, layout and content.

I always remember the advice given to me when we launched on-line financial service a few years back:- The developers are not the target audience – they know too much; the directors of the company are not the target audience –but often impose their personal views; the marketing team should come nowhere near the designers  - and generally know nothing.  Get some graphic ergonomic advice from people who have NEVER used the product…

Next, let’s look at set-up

MC covers a broad spectrum of target audiences, ranging from the non technical early adopters to the propeller heads.  The far right of the spectrum can most probably look after itself, so let’s look at the beginner through to the first time HTPC user.

When start MC for the first time, step through the set-up process for Audio, Video, Handhelds, Ripping & Burning.  

Perhaps use a wizard ( I hate that name, but it describes the function needed ) that guides users through the various settings for Tools and the Library ( grouped as covered above ).
Set up questions like – where do you want your library database?, cover art in files?, artist\album.  Hide the video, images stuff.  And by the way, “Media Import” is a misleading term as “import” means bring something in, implying the files will be copied – you’re not, you are only indexing it.

A while ago, Microsoft had an idea of partially installing features of its software.  Whilst this is not necessary for MC, perhaps the first time that a user activates a particular function – e.g. ripping, a sub-set of the set-up program can run to assist the set-up process.

Lastly, I would suggest a pre-packed configuration file for common user types – perhaps the iPod first time user and the HTPC user.  I would even go so far as to suggest a recommended hardware list and a configuration file with all the presets to match.  This makes a “build your own” HTPC a possibility for the less experienced user.

I wonder if this all points to an MC lite that would be free for new iPod users or ATI board purchasers…

nick
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mindracing

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2003, 05:32:59 am »

Excellent post Nick.

I always test processes and procedures by giving them to someone who knows nothing. If they get it to work then I've done a good job.

The iPOD is a great example. No instructions needed (until it comes to synching)!

MC will be even greater when it follows some of your suggestions.
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Matt

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2003, 09:20:36 am »

Thanks for this discussion.  The more specific the suggestions, the more helpful.  You'll never find someone who doesn't think a clean, intuitive interface is better -- the question is 'how.'

Naming and menu layout are two things we could debate forever.  The engineer deep inside a lot of the forum users (and me) wants everything hyper-logical and categorized.  When you watch a usability test, new users don't really work that way.  Without a deeper understanding, all those "logical groupings" aren't all that logical.  I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but I don't think it's the best battle to fight.

Anyway, keep the ideas coming.
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NoCodeUK

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2003, 09:39:51 am »

I agree with Matt.  Although I understand that wizards and the like are better for n00bs they persoanlly drive mean experienced user, absolutely mad :)  I don't like using a program that I feel has been "dumbed down" as it feels a little bit patronising.  MS do a good job of making their software easy to use but sometimes even they go too far - Clippy the paper clip being a good example.  It is a fine line between usability and power but as was mentioned above an MC user is unlikely to be a total n00b.  Most of us came to this program because we wanted mroe than what was offered by the freebie alternatives...in that scenario we want more raw power and less hand holding.

Adam
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martinhw

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2003, 03:29:03 pm »

I don't understand why the willingness to decrease the complexity or even the capability of such good software.
As NoCodeUK describes some people, I once was a "nOOb", but as I do with all new things I buy, I read the manual.
How can a person possibly benifit or capture the FULL functionality of a product without knowing what it does ?
I downloaded the Microsoft media player, and yes it was free, but if I paid J River the price I paid for Win XP Pro, I'd expect them to give me a new free player every now and again.

So what am I trying to say ? - I previewed MJ 8 - bought V9 and will buy V10 - why ? Because it's Kick @ss software that I find easy to use once reading the how to bit - and I love it !!


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10Gauge

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2003, 10:14:10 pm »

I know you want specifics, but it is hard to give specifics when an entirely new way
of looking at your own product may be what is needed.
 Its not that certain parts need to be redone,
its that the whole 'look and feel' needs to be revisted.
You have been 'feature' focused and the program as a whole has suffered except for
legacy users.

The best thing that I can suggest is to grab a girl in her late teens,
and while looking over her shoulder, tell her to install and use Winamp.
A few days later to install and use Musicmatch.
A few days later to install and use WMP9.
A few days later to install and use MC10.
Then see what actions she takes to TRY to get MC10 to do what she wants.
Whenever she fails to ON THE FIRST TRY to accomplish the task that she set out to do
she has pointed you to some process or action that needs rethinking.
Every action that can be, should be intuitive.

There is NO WAY that you can see this for yourself, you are just too close.
The product that you have now is capable, but not intuitive.
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NickM

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2003, 12:59:07 pm »

Yes, Thomas – that is what I meant.  Given the huge amount of features in MC, I too assume that the target audience must be the techie/power users.  BUT, these people start off by testing the product and make the same intuitive assessments as non-technical users.

I recommended this software to a friend of mine who is a very experienced Java programmer and system designer.  He did eventually manage to use all the functionality required out of the product, but admitted although a convert now, the learning process was painful.

To me this means the whole look and feel is at fault and it must surely put some people off undertaking the familiarisation task.

I go back to my rather sad analogy with MS products.  My father-in-law can us MS Word to type his letters.  And MS Word is the best word processor package available for power users.  MS must have spent a huge portion of their R&D budget on getting the user interfaces right.  Whether these interfaces are right ( or not ), this somewhat dictates the baseline for program familiarity for mainstream users.

Don’t re-invent the wheel.  Look at complex MS products and learn…

nick
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zevele10

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2004, 03:31:18 pm »

Well....
 To be not a "nOOb" is not enought to use MC.

Most of you do not realise how complex and confusing MC is.

Some people come here because they have to much songs to use another player.
Period ,not to spend they life building playlists including/excluding the age of the driver of the car next to them.

There is no need to remove fonctions from MC.
There is a need to give new users a way to set it as he likes, according to his level of understanding, to his needs at the present time.

Latter ,he may ,or not start to use more and more fonctions ,up to him.

 Mathematics is not that difficult to learn.
If you learn according to a program,order.
Now ,if you got all the books for the next five years of learning at once and a confusing teacher [ the help files] , that is another storie...

I do not know what 'The Big Deal' is- And i really wish it will make a LOT of good to JRiver.

But there is no big deal who would be able to put MC on the mainstreet list of programs.
Average users would NEVER use MC.

Again ,i give my opinion , i do not complain.
I just try to tell the feeling of someone who is not a powerfull user and do not want to spend his life to be one.


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LisaRCT

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2004, 05:47:38 pm »

OK, I will throw in my 2 cents also  :P

I absolutely LOVE MC!
But YES it was somewhat painful to learn.

Did I have a choice?
No, not really . . . not if I wanted my PC to do what I wanted with music files. So, I perservered.

Will just anyone do that?
No Way!  Especially when there are some decent FREE player out there.
Will the ones who need/want more seek out and buy MC?
Yes, I fully expect so.

However, I'd expect that a real nice install program with options galore (as mentioned above in previous posts) for multi-level users to choose (and later change), hardware configs, etc, could go a long way towards making MC a mass market prodiuct.

And Nick, thanks for the specifics.
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NickM

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2004, 01:30:06 am »

I do suppose that the JRiver commercial objective is to make money out of MC…  So the basic question is how to make this a more mass market product whilst maintaining the great functionality.   The suggestion of dumbing down, adding wizards, simplifying operation no doubt detracts from the fantastic advantages that MC presently offers with such a rich feature set.

So Lisa, your suggestion of beginner and expert modes seems VERY sensible, however, I think it partially avoids the present problem.  No matter whether MC is directed towards power users or the mass market, it is NOT intuitive and the GUI requires much learning.  What is really required is as 10Guage and Drowbe suggest – look at how new users, whether n00bs or techies, use the product.  

Ten years ago, I always wanted to know how the software worked, tweaking and pushing the limit of its functionality.  Now, most probably due to lack of time, I just want something that works.  I would even sacrifice some of the complexity for easy of use – maybe Alzheimer’s is setting in early.

I have binned my Audiograbber, got rid of Monkey’s Audio, removed EAC, chucked Girder and dozens of other editing and tagging products.  MC does it all and does it well, I just want an easier life…

And a happy New Year to all,

nick
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modelmaker

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2004, 04:01:03 am »

I am probably one of your more typical  "average" users. I bought my first computer August of 2002 and tought myself to use it and build the 2nd one and now I'm almost done building the 3rd and last one (for a while!). I don't know anything about writing code, most of what's disscussed on this forum goes right over my head, I can barely use notepad! When I first bought MC back in May '03, I was stumped about something and tried to find a link for support! I hadn't had any experience with chat rooms and forums, I did finally get an answer and have been learning ever since. But I was also highly motivated.

So here a few reasons why I chose MC:

   1. I was looking for a player that would help me pull an HTPC, (along with my hodgepodge of a/v epuipment) together.
   2. I had started digitizing my analog collection with Magix' AudioCleaningLab(does a great job), but once done, how to organize and store it? I tried mmjb, winamp, and a few others (never liked wmp from the beginning), I never figured out how to organize by album title with mmjb or winamp nor store full screen cover art (or if they even could) and these were features I definitely wanted.
    3. I like the ease of adding/modifying tags from my recorded album files (although I still don't get very many hits with YADB).
    4. I love the one-click ripping. Once set up, it is automatic. Nice. Yadb works great with ripped CDs.
    5. The sound quality is truely excellent.

For an inexperienced computer user like me, some of the help files were over my head at the time; it took me 3 months to figure out how to make /modify smartlists, I'm still learning how to do view schemes, when making CDs, I always ended up with a double set of songs in the que list, it also took a while to figure out how to get back to normal view from that awfully named "hairstyle" - I didn't even know what it was for the first week. These are just some of the things that come to mind at the moment.

  I would suggest using (defeatable) Wizards to help nOObs along. This would even encourage me to move out my comfort zone(9.0). I have checked out 9.1 and 10 and I don't have the time or inclination to go through the loooong learning process I did with 9.0.

sorry this got so long winded. Happy New Year!
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Jay.

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LisaRCT

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2004, 10:56:53 am »

Tutorials

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Drowbe

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2004, 02:08:46 pm »

<snip>
... it also took a while to figure out how to get back to normal view from that awfully named "hairstyle" - I didn't even know what it was for the first week.
<snip>
I have checked out 9.1 and 10 and I don't have the time or inclination to go through the loooong learning process I did with 9.0.
Version 10 is leaps and bounds better than 9.0.  They have addressed many of the UI issues that bugged me in 9.0.  Also, you mentioned using "Hairstyle" above...one of the biggest changes I've seen is in Hairstyle mode.  It is MUCH easier to read and use now.  It still needs work, but it is getting there.  If you are feeling brave one day, give the v10 beta a shot.

I think your post is probably fairly representative of the new-user experience.  We had people over last night and once again I was the only person who could get the music going...until I fired up Hairstyle mode...then, with 5 minutes of instructions before hand, everyone was able to enqueue songs of which to listen.

I think if more people posted about their initial experiences and learing curves, JRiver would benifit greatly.
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modelmaker

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2004, 03:47:18 pm »

I have to say, after having a little practice with winamp & mmjb (about a month), it wasn't that difficult to import my files from the HD and play music, it was everything that came after that. However had I not tried the other players first, it would have been much more difficult.

I think one of the biggest problems for noobs is nomenclature. "Import Files" is certainly a misnomer; "registering files" is a more accurate description of that function, but I can also see where that can cause some confusion with the registry etc...
I know it's been mentioned before, but mega-me, mini-me and hairstyle have got to go. With all due respect, the "in" jokes don't belong on a professionally released product, have all the fun you want while a product is in beta, but it should be cleaned up when its released. "mega-view" and "mini-view" would be fine I think.

Here's an example of how I use MC: When recording  a pristine LP i will use MC but as most of my LPs and tapes (R2R or Cass.) are not, I use AcLab with its multitude of cleaning tools and editing capabilities, however its tagging of the wav files is not usable, so I then convert the finished wav files to mp3 Hi/Var files (using MC or EasyCD), find them in the tree under "unassigned", tag them, add cover art, analyze for RG(already done if I used MC) and I'm done. The process is quite efficient and painless.

One feature I would love to see in a recorder, record an album at 45 or 78 rpm and then with a click - playback the album on the computer at the correct speed, sort of like high-speed dubbing on a cassette deck. It sure would speed up the recording process!

At this point, I will probably skip to v10 when it's "released". The paltry upgrade cost is not a factor to me. I look at MC as another component in my a/v system - what piece of audio/video equipment that gives you so much controll over your music collection can you buy for 40$ ?!
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Jay.

"Life is what happens when you're making other plans"     John Lennon.

NickM

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2004, 12:05:02 pm »

Lisa, tutorials sounds a bit like detention to me!

I need to be able to use my intuition...

n
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Zarius

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2004, 01:33:02 am »

Why is everyone so concerned about tutorials/wizards... the majority of the time they are only benificial.. ie they help beginning users and should have a button labeled 'skip' (or power methods as opposed to wizards) and 'never show this window again' so -should- pose no interference to power-users.  It's only tutorial's/wizards gone wrong that you have to worry about.. eg Clippy [ although one -could- turn him off... I did :) ].
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LisaRCT

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2004, 09:57:22 am »

Lisa, tutorials sounds a bit like detention to me!

I need to be able to use my intuition...

n

LOL . . . .  detention huh?  How did you know I used to be a teecher??   ;D
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zevele10

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Re:What makes the world go round
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2004, 10:13:00 am »

MEGA  LOL...
So you been a jug of Whisky in another life  , before the JRiver age??

In this case ,let me translate a french expression :
I drink your words

Put in a Jam [Whisky jam ?] band way:
 [I wanna] Drink Your Words
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