Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[milknkukis]

Hi gang,
A friend of mine is having problems with the sound system for her new restaurant, so i thought this might be the place to ask. The place is all set up to have ceiling speakers, the amp is ready and the cables are in place but at the last minute the architect won't let her cut the holes to insert the speakers as he thinks it will disturb the upstairs residents too much. (He also has a share in the business so we can't just tell him to get lost) So does anyone know of any speakers which might can be mounted on the surface?
any suggestions would be helpful (apart from shooting the architect, those plans are well under way!)
cheers
mark

[IanG]

Your friend could use flat panel speakers.  Some of them are designed to look like ceiling tiles.  Mounting the speakers on suspended boards could be another option, though it might not fit the interior design of the restaurant.

Ian G.

[milknkukis]

He may have a share in the business, but presumably the architect is also being paid for his services, so, does the interior design not also fall under his remit?

It's all well and good him stepping in with his "no-no's" but surely it would be more helpful, and positive, on his part if he could also offer up some alternative solutions? Surely if design is his business, he should have the resources at his fingertips?

Ha! you sound very like i did yesterday. For now i'm trying to be positive and help find another solution. The flat panels look interesting, i might be able to find something along those lines. It is a plastered ceiling so a slightly different style is needed. Problem is the speakers we were going to use worked out at ~£20 each, now i think that figure is going to sky-rocket.....

Thanks for the link, keep 'em coming if you know of anything else.

cheers

mark

[Mastiff]

There are spacers made for car speakers that may work.

[milknkukis]

I was hoping to find something like that but i couldn't think how you would describe them. Do you know where you have seen them?
There is always the option to make something similar but they are due to open any day so a quick solution would be better.
cheers
mark

[modelmaker]

She could  use "cans" (plastic would be best acoustically - similar to recessed  lighting cans) to create an enclosure behind the speaker. Stuff them with a bit of fibreglass insulation for further sound absorbtion.

The can would direct almost all of the sound downward and if we're talking about a restaurant environment, the volume level would be low anyway as you don't want to drown out your patrons.  The ambient crowd noise would probably carry more anyway.

To secure the can to the back of the speaker , use something like a construction adhesive(in the US we have one called 'Liquid Nails') or a silicone sealant/adhesive.

If there is enough clearance above the speaker and can, you could also lay a "blanket' of of insulation over the speaker for more deadening.

The only other options I can think of would be the aforementioned 'flat panel' or small braket mounted satelite speakers painted to match the ceiling.

Good Luck.

[milknkukis]

Thanks, for the info, i can see i might be getting very messy in the near future.

Using this method, you basically seal the back of the speaker, right? Does this not alter the performance of the speaker dramatically? I would have thought it will affect how the speaker moves as the air can't move very easily behind it?

Also, where would i go to find sound deadening materials? Can you get this kind of stuff from average hardware shops? I can't think i have ever seen it, but then my girlfriend is convinced i walk around with my eyes shut half the time anyway.....

I really appreciate all the help guys.

cheers
mark

[IanG]

Using this method, you basically seal the back of the speaker, right? Does this not alter the performance of the speaker dramatically? I would have thought it will affect how the speaker moves as the air can't move very easily behind it?

If I've understood modelmaker correctly, you're making an infinite baffle enclosure.  That's probably going to improve the performance.

Ian G.

[modelmaker]

As IanG said, this creates an 'infinite baffle' type of enclosure; the air inside the (sealed) enclosure acts like a spring and shock absorber and in general terms can give you a cleaner or tighter (less boom boom) sound. It is slightly less efficient as it needs a bit more power for the cone to move inward, which is compensated by the more rapid forward movement (spring return). You might also want to boost the bass a little. In your friend's situation efficiency is not really an issue because of the relatively low volume levels. I have assumed that we're talking about background music.

As for the insulation material, you can use the same fibreglass insulation material hat is used to insulate walls in homes - see your nearest home improvement center. A role of the stuff is not expensive (here in the US about $15) You'll have a lot left over unless you use the blanket example I mentioned earlier (each blanket should be about 2feet sqare and the cans should be about 6-8 inches tall.

 Another source for the fibreglass batting would be an electronics store that still sells speaker parts such as RadioShack.

edit: The blankets would have to be pushed thru the speaker hole and spread out and then install the speaker. This may seem obvious, but you'd be surprized how often after this type of installation there are leftover "blankets" on the floor!

[Mastiff]

A quick google gave me Circuit City on top of the list:
http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=89600&com.broadvision.session.new=Yes&ct=0&BV_SessionID=@@@@2081733673.1103065988@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccccadddgdffkkkcfngcfkmdffhdffk.0

The search was +car +speaker +spacer and it gave more than 15 000 hits, so I'm sure you'll be able to find something in your area (providing your area isn't Greenland, Borneo or Svalbard, that is...).

[Markeau]

http://www.magnepan.com/spk_mmgw_c.php

[modelmaker]

If you could fit the "Maggies" into the archetecture of the restaurant they could certainly be a great sounding alternative.

Using spacers to surface mount, while not the most elegantly looking solution, when painted to match the ceiling would probably not be visually obtrusive.

In a public space type environment, you don't really need great fidelity, you need clean undistorted sound, afterall in a restaurant the focus is supposed to be on the food and the company you're with. The background music should only be there to supliment the 'atmosphere'.

[Charlemagne 8]

Check these out. Flat panel speakers that can be disguised as artwork. Not tremendously expensive, either.

Gekko Flat Speakers


********************************************

Sorry. Fixed now. Thanks.

[Mastiff]

Eh...there's an extra http:// in that one.

[milknkukis]

Thanks for all the help guys, we have managed to convince the architect to listen to reason. We are going to fit the speakers, then if it really is too loud we will take them back out and sound proof them in the way IanG suggested. I don't think it will ever be required as it is only for background noise, but it is useful to know for the future. I think it was the prices of flat speakers and high quality rear sealed speakers which managed to win him round, so thanks for all the links! If anyone is interested JBL make a speaker which is sealed at the rear, but at £175 you had better be reaaaallllly sure you need them! As a comparison, we have bought 6 100W water resistant speakers for £127!!!
cheers
mark

[IanG]

sound proof them in the way IanG suggested.

I think modelmaker deserves the plaudits for that, not me.  But I notice you're quoting prices in £££, where's the restaurant?

Ian G.

[milknkukis]

oops, my fault! credit goes to modelmaker.

the restaurant is in edinburgh, "Double Dutch", right by the university if anyone knows the area. Chances are you are nowhere near as edinburgh is tiny but you never know!

cheers
mark

[modelmaker]

You never know, on my next trip across the pond, I might might just turn up!

Having spent 30 years in the audio biz and doing hundreds of installs ,I am happy to share what I picked up along the way altough in many cases technology has replaced a lot of our older solutions. I do remember a flat panel speaker back in the seventies (other than Quad Electrostatics & Maggies) where the panel was made of styrofoam and was also cover painted/printed speaker cloth (like the Gekkos). We also use Tannoy co-axial speakers in certain situations.

Happy Holidays!

[IanG]

the restaurant is in edinburgh, "Double Dutch", right by the university if anyone knows the area. Chances are you are nowhere near as edinburgh is tiny but you never know!

I'm about as far away as you can get without getting your feet wet - Portsmouth! Maybe one day... 

Ian G.