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[Health Nut]

I want to purchase a portable music player that can handle lossless or uncompressed files.  I'm not into MP3 or lossy quality.  I'm hoping there is something out there better than the Apple product...  It would be great if their were a portable player that could run J Rivers media center and APE lossless files.  I rip all my CD's to APE lossless and J Rivers Media Center....  Any recommendations on some portable players?  Any portable players that record?

My interest is in quality not quantity...

[Alex B]

Generally that is not a good idea. Only a few players can play lossless files at all. I guess FLAC is supported by some and iPod can play ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec). Besides, no ordinary portable player can run windows software like MC. They all have built-in proprietary software.

In any case, properly made lossy files (e.g. MP3 VBR Extreme in MC11) have almost certainly better audio quality than current portable players have. The hardware audio components and decoding software used in those players are not exactly high-end hifi. Huge lossless files also drain the battery fast.

If you insist to carry lossless files with you and like to have MC as your user interface you could google e.g. these products: Sony VGN-U50 or Sony VGN-U70, M-Audio Transit USB and KOSS PortaPro.

[hit_ny]

Use the old tech approach. Get an Audio cd player.

Burn your lossless files to CDA or WAV on CD-RWs (check player can read CD-RW) or CD-R's. Or if the player is capable DVD-R or DVD-RW.

No way to record unfortunately  ?

You don't mention whether the player will be violently shaken ie, jogging or whether it will be in a car or where there will be less vibration (hopefully).

[brossmac]

Rio Karma has FLAC support!

I was gonna mention that but I have seen some mixed reviews about the hard disc....

[LonWar]

Would you actually hear the difference from Lossless to Mp3 320 when your using Headphones, or patching it into a car radio?

[Myron]

The iPod supports WAV files.  According to a 2003 review in Stereophile you can only use WAV format if you have a MAC computer.  Don't know is this is still true for the latest versions.

The review gave the hardware pretty good marks.  Here's the final paragraph of the testing section:

"The iPod's measured behavior is better than many CD players—ironic, considering that most of the time it will be used to play MP3 and AAC files, which will not immediately benefit from such good performance. But if you're willing to trade off maximum playing time against the ability to play uncompressed AIFF or WAV files, the iPod will do an excellent job of decoding them. Excellent, cost-effective audio engineering from an unexpected source.—John Atkinson"

See the whole review here:  http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/934/index.html

[jgreen]

The Ipod plays waves, or at least used to.  I bought a "2g" Ipod (the first series to sync to windows, no I/O on the bottom, firewire on the top), and all I ever played on it for the first 2 years was WAVs.  In retrospect, this was a silly waste of space, for all the reasons cited by Alex B. 

If you really want a "portable" player, wait 2 months for apple to bring out the 4 gb shuffle.  ALL the disk-drive Ipods will skip when shaken, and with WAV format, 1 song is bigger than the total cache, so you can forget jogging with it.  Ipod has the best sound, the best of everything, but like Alex B says, it isn't good enough to notice the compression.  I recommend the extreme VBR / mp3 for the Ipod.  I've used both CBR and VBR, and there is a noticeable difference.

I believe the Ipod tone skews towards bass.  There is an EQ setting that will bring it back towards treble, sharpening the sound.

If you want to run MC, forget portability and think transportability.  One day I'll get a new laptop just so I can take my whole library on the road.  Then I can browse MC and play tracks with >112db SNR, two things you'll never do with an Ipod.  On the other hand, I could never imagine skiing with a laptop, or running down the streeet with it.

[Health Nut]

Thankyou for your suggestions. 

I want to reiterate that lossless *is* important to me.  I've had portable DAT players previously to which I could also record.  I don't do lossy.  Perhaps I can understand for a pure jogging device, I guess, but I still just do not deal with lossy audio.  In fact, I've spent quite a lot of effort lobbying for a mandatory single lossless DTS/DD track for Blu Ray and HD-DVD (As many of you know, DD and DTS both have lossless codecs which will be supported when Blu Ray and or HD-DVD is released, DD Lossless/DTS Lossless).  The studios are seeming to respond well.  I would hate to the acceptance of lossy audio to continue to extend beyond a portable jogging device.  I was very sad to see the mass acceptance of MP3 quality extend beyond a jogging device.

In any case, it is too bad nobody has a 4 GB pure flash drive.  If there is an IPOD 4GB Shuffle coming, and any other 4GB drive coming, I'll pick one up and use Lossless compression.  I would agree that wav and uncompressed is a waste.  Lossless compression is what I seek.  Ideally, I would have a player that does FLAC, APE, OGG, or whatever lossless and uses at least 4GB flash, no hard drive... Anything come close yet?  Did you say the 4GB iPOD shuffle coming out can do lossless?  I do agree uncompressed is a waste, but lossless is what I seek.

[Teppsta]

I was going to raise a question as a separate topic but this thread seems to be heading in the right direction ...

If I want lossless audio for my home CD centre, have access to it from my MAC, plus I want to carry a decent size library round in my iPod, PLUS I want to use a UPnP device elsewhere in my home (something like a Philips Streamium which only seem to support MP3) any thoughts on the best solution.

The Apple lossless format seems like an excellent candidate and should do 3 out of the 4, but I can't find any way of routing that over my home network to the UPnP client.

Has any got a setup like this running who could offer some insight ?

[hit_ny]

I was very sad to see the mass acceptance of MP3 quality extend beyond a jogging device.

Which specific music genres do you listen to using lossless ?

[Myron]

In fact, I've spent quite a lot of effort lobbying for a mandatory single lossless DTS/DD track for Blu Ray and HD-DVD (As many of you know, DD and DTS both have lossless codecs which will be supported when Blu Ray and or HD-DVD is released, DD Lossless/DTS Lossless).  The studios are seeming to respond well.  I would hate to the acceptance of lossy audio to continue to extend beyond a portable jogging device.  I was very sad to see the mass acceptance of MP3 quality extend beyond a jogging device.

I'm very glad to see I'm not the only one that's not interested in lossy music formats.  I applaud your efforts to stop the decline of audio quality.

I find it ironic that as technology advances quality declines.  There's no excuse for this.  Lossy formats do have their place, but if we're not careful, I fear that lossy is all that will be available.

I didn't know that DD and DTS had lossless options, so it's encouraging to see that these options will be available in the next generation of DVDs (if they ever make it to market).

[jgreen]

Guys, I am no advocate of lossy formats, believe me.  But I think you're too optimistic about the fidelity offered in ANY portable player, all the way out to the tin earbuds.  As I said, I fed my ipod ONLY WAVs for the first two years, and I often used it as a wired remote to my living room reciever, where I would A/B against the original source.  That's why I say that you aren't going to get the same fidelity out of these devices.  MC11 has an excellent convert on sync utility, and that's how I get mp3's into my ipod without ever letting them touch my library.

As for the 4gb flash ipod, according to engadget.com, apple bought up 40% of samsung's flash output for their new shuffle, which will be amnounced for the christmas buying season.  I think I'll pick one up.

As far as ALAC goes, I would wait.  This is a fully proprietary standard (more so than AAC), and I don't know of anything that supports it.  MC runs WMA lossless, APE and FLAC, although FLAC support is third-party.

[Alex B]

The Sony device I mentioned is an extremely small PC that runs normal XP. It may not fit in a pocket, but it can be easily carried e.g. with a small backbag.

http://www.dynamism.com/u50/index.shtml
http://www.thevooner.com/feature/2004/07/08/sonyu70/sonyu70.htm
http://aalphacomputerscouk.site.securepod.com/index.htm
http://static.the-gadgeteer.com/sony-vaio-vgn-u71p-review.html

M-Audio Transit is a small USB soundcard that has a high quality DAC. Koss PortaPro headphones are very good too.

Together with MC these gadgets would make my ultimate portable. I have two of the devices already. The Sony is a bit expensive buy, but I really would like to have one. Perhaps I should write to Santa…

[Nolonemo]

The lossy v. lossless debate is very old, and I find it very interesting.

To my mind, the only important fact is whether I can hear the difference between lossy and lossless.  And the only meaningful way to determine that is to run blind AxB tests.  Given the state of my aging hearing, I know that I can't so WTF.

For the OP who passionately rejects lossy encoding, I wonder if you have objectively (i.e., in blind, randomized trials) determined whether you can actually tell the difference?

There has been extensive debate on this topic at the hydrogenaudio.org forums, for those who are interested.

[Alex B]

I listened to "lossless" CD audio before I discovered that a PC could be used as a source. Actually my high quality lossy files started to sound better than my stand-alone hifi CD player when I bought a decent soundcard. The soundcard has a better quality DAC than my mid 90s hifi player has.

The faults in audio electronics are present all the time. The occasional artifacts that high quality lossy files have are usually present only with a small number of problem samples. It is very difficult to hear the difference between a properly made lossy file and a lossless source when listening to normal music. I have managed to do that only a couple of times when I used LAME --alt-preset extreme.

My current favorite audiophile codec is Musepack at quality level 8. It produces at average about 250-280 kbps files, but when needed it uses higher bitrates like well over 400 kbps.

I rip all my CDs in single file disc image APE & APL link files format and store the disc image files in my archive. However, I don't usually keep those in my library. After tagging I convert them to MPC or MP3 format. I use MPC if the original is one of those rare albums that have really great audio quality or if the material is difficult to compress like some atonal electronic music and I like to make sure that the lossy copy is as transparent as possible.

When I need MP3 files for my car or portable MP3 CD player I use the MP3 files directly from my library or in case of another format I encode new MP3 files from my APE archive. That is not too much work because the most of my library is in MP3 VBR extreme format.

[Teppsta]

Which specific music genres do you listen to using lossless ?

I listen to a wide range from Bach unaccompanied cello sonatas to Smashing Pumpkins. Interestingly I really notice the difference at both ends of this spectrum and it is probably the more MOR stuff that I don't notice lossy codex as much.

If I compress using a lossless format, and use jriver as a media centre, that will solve most of my requirements but can I then encode on-the-fly to deliver to a UPnP client? I guess that is my key question.

[Health Nut]

I'm going to purchase the first available high quality 4GB flash player that does lossless.  I'm assuming it would be very easy to convert my lossless APE files to another lossless format on the fly while transferring them to the (yet to be released) 4GB iPOD shuffle.  4GB will hold enough songs for me in lossless to be happy.  I would imagine that I could have multiple playlists in JRIVERS made specifically for the iPOD so that I could erase and swap 4GB playlists rather easily? 

You would think their would have been at least a 2GB flash player out by now, but I can easily wait 2 months for a 4GB player...

[Alex B]

That entirely depends on the headphones . . . . . (and one's ears)   
With the likes of Ultimate Ears UE10's, Etymolic ER-4, Shure E5, Westone UM's, etc (all high-end IEM's or "canal-phones) as well as some others, it is entirely reasonable that some folks CAN hear the difference, even on a portable...

I have a partly different opinion. Traditionally using better audio equipment like better headphones makes the quality differences more pronounced. That is also true when low quality lossy files are compared with the original. The overall quality loss is obvious and naturally with better audio equipment it is easier to notice the difference.

However, when we are speaking about the encoding artifacts when modern lossy encoders are used at the highest bitrates and optimal quality settings the situation is different. Usually the files sound identical in casual listening. Using the highest quality audio equipment does not change that, because of the different nature of the artifacts. The artifacts are occasional and they don't necessarily sound unpleasantly distorted, just a bit different. Once I tried to explain one of my findings here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=21002.msg147264#msg147264. Actually, the whole thread is interesting reading.

Because this kind of encoding artifacts are quite different from the artifacts caused by mediocre audio devices, a trained listener can pick up the errors using almost any decent audio gear when ABX testing short problem samples.

I have read that the founder of Hydrogen Audio used at some stage the integrated speakers of his laptop when he tuned the famous LAME 3.90.x --alt-presets (I am not sure if this is a fact or an urban legend, but it is possible).

[jgreen]

H Nut--
Your ipod just came out.  The ipod "nano", it is the size and shape of the mini but has the look of the regular ipod.  Also comes in black, a 4gb costs you $250.  Meant to be worn around the neck on a lanyard, for some reason they put the headphone jack on the bottom.  Try it out and let me know, I'm saving my nickels and dimes.

[lalittle]

One other factor that in my opinion doesn't get the attention it deserves is the fact that the iPod does NOT do gapless playback -- not even with WAV files that DO play back gapless with computer based players.  This means that if you're a fan of bands like Genesis or Pink Floyd, you'll get obnoxious gaps during the music that completely disrupts the flow of the music.  This really stands out on an album like "The Wall" since pretty much all of the songs on this album lead directly from one to the next with no silence in between.

I'm always at a loss when I see so many articles talking about using an iPod as the central "hub" of a home system -- i.e. we are seeing home components designed to directly integrate with the iPod so that the iPod becomes the "server" for the home system.  Apparently, the people writing about this only listen to pop music where where all the tracks are separated by silence.

Larry

[Alex B]

One other factor that in my opinion doesn't get the attention it deserves is the fact that the iPod does NOT do gapless playback...

That's why I have the albums that need gapless playback in single MP3 + CUE tracks format in my library. I have imported also the disc image MP3 files and use them with other devices.

MC can play separate track files almost gaplessly (for some reason the gapless playback option does not always work perfectly with MP3 files), but my portable and car MP3 CD players do not even try.

In a perfect world I would use single-track MPC files as my lossy format. The Musepack format is gapless by design, but unfortunately it has no hardware player support.

Ogg Vorbis might still be one of the future formats besides AAC/MP4. Some listening tests with the latest beta versions are very promising also with high quality audiophile settings. Traditionally Vorbis has been very good at low bitrates. It has some portable support already and hopefully that is growing.

Also Vorbis is perfectly gapless by design. The gapless playback just needs to be implemented on the playback devices.

[lalittle]

That's why I have the albums that need gapless playback in single MP3 + CUE tracks format in my library. I have imported also the disc image MP3 files and use them with other devices.

Do you know if the iPod supports this?  It would be wonderful if this solved the gap issue with the iPod, but up to now it's always been my understanding that the iPod does not support CUE files.

On a side note, when you rip this way, does everything "appear" the same way in MC as it would if you had ripped individual songs?

Thanks,

Larry

[Alex B]

I don't use the cue files with other devices. Only the big album files like "Pink Floyd - The Dark Side Of The Moon.mp3". Naturally I lose the separate tracks, but I would listen to the whole albums anyway.

[hit_ny]

Do you know if the iPod supports this?  It would be wonderful if this solved the gap issue with the iPod, but up to now it's always been my understanding that the iPod does not support CUE files.

No it does not, and is my main reason for not getting one. Having said that i'm not aware of any portable player whatsoever that can support CUE. But Apple's supposed to think different right

On a side note, when you rip this way, does everything "appear" the same way in MC as it would if you had ripped individual songs?

Exactly the same, with the exception that the bitrate & File size fields are empty.

[Alex B]

On a side note, when you rip this way, does everything "appear" the same way in MC as it would if you had ripped individual songs?

CUE support is not perfect yet, there are some limitations. I hope we will get some improvements in the next MC version. If you are interested you could search for "CUE".

I can live with the limitations because I have lossless album images in APE + APL format in my archive and I can always convert and split new files from those archived files when needed.

[jgreen]

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you guys just edit your tracks together and save it off as a new (big) track?  Ipod works fine with huge tracks, as opposed to all this cue/MC nonsense, which Alex B said he was going to work on but hasn't done thing one yet.

I've done this on a few albums, for example the Last Waltz, where Dylan's songs are grouped together, Neil Young's etc.  Continuity is preserved, although it does give you a duplicate track, and I know how much some of you hate duplicates.

[Alex B]

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you guys just edit your tracks together and save it off as a new (big) track?  Ipod works fine with huge tracks, as opposed to all this cue/MC nonsense, which Alex B said he was going to work on but hasn't done thing one yet.

I've done this on a few albums, for example the Last Waltz, where Dylan's songs are grouped together, Neil Young's etc.  Continuity is preserved, although it does give you a duplicate track, and I know how much some of you hate duplicates.

Actually, I meant that, except I don't have to combine the files. For some time I have been ripping and re-ripping the CDs in lossless album file + cue archive format.

For MC library I have encoded the albums that need gapless playback in big MP3 album file format. I use the cue sheet files for getting virtual tracks inside my library.

For my own portable use I usually burn MP3 CD discs. I use the big whole album MP3 files besides the separate track files from my other albums.

Besides the car MP3 CD player I have a nice portable MP3 CD player. It has very good audio quality when used with my KOSS PortaPro headphones.

I don't have a good HD or memory based portable player yet, only an old flash player that has crappy audio quality and very limited capacity. I have never actually used it because my portable MP3 CD player is much better. The unit size or weight does not matter much to me. It is enough if I can easily carry it in a bag.

[hit_ny]

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you guys just edit your tracks together and save it off as a new (big) track?  Ipod works fine with huge tracks, as opposed to all this cue/MC nonsense, which Alex B said he was going to work on but hasn't done thing one yet.

Because that entails a re-encode, if i understand you correctly.

Instead albums are ripped as one big file and the cue is the index for what tracks are actually playing. I use a mp3 cd player that i bought yrs ago, works fine.

[Health Nut]

H Nut--
Your ipod just came out.  The ipod "nano", it is the size and shape of the mini but has the look of the regular ipod.  Also comes in black, a 4gb costs you $250.  Meant to be worn around the neck on a lanyard, for some reason they put the headphone jack on the bottom.  Try it out and let me know, I'm saving my nickels and dimes.

Thanks...  I'm going to order one today if possible.  There is an Apple store (yuk!!) in view from my balcony just across the street.  I'll check on line for discounts first though.

Thanks again for letting me know, otherwise I would have had to wait a while.  4GB version.. maybe I can get it today if they have it in the Apple store... headed over there now...

Chris

[Health Nut]

After talking with the Apple Store across the street, they say the nano is the replacement for the iPod mini... Apparently there has been a 4GB flash mini available for a year according to the people there...  Well, regardless I will wait until the store opens at 10:00 a.m. and grab one.  Apparently it is first come first serve starting tomorrow.  Is everybody sure that no one else makes a 4GB flash player besides Apple, especially if Apple has had a 4GB mini out for a year.

I am a PC user, not apple, If I buy the new 4GB iPod nano can I do lossless compression, and how would I do it?  The guy said I need apple software called iTunes...  Why can't I just use J Rivers Media Center to transfer lossless files to the iPod nano?  Would I have to convert my APE lossless files to another lossless file format that the iPod nano accepts?  Can this be done in one step?  Can anyone give an overview how it would work?

Thanks,

Chris

[jgreen]

1.  The ipod mini used a hard drive, NOT flash.  The nano is the first >1gb flash player.

2.  MC11/nano  compatibility is undetermined.  MC supports all standard ipods, but I have heard that MC does not support the shuffle.  If you need MC compatibility right off the bat, either wait, or choose a standard ipod.  My ipod is old (2nd generation), but I've upgraded firmware all along and NEVER had to use itunes.  But wait a couple of months and things will settle out.  Also, post to the peripherals forum.  Steve G seems to be jriver's in-house resident expert.  pank2002 posts frequently there, and he helped me figure out MC compatibility.

3.  The nano is currently the only 4gb flash player.  The ipod has been out for, what, 4 years?  Nobody has made a device that can touch it, IMO.  Apple bought up half of Samsung's supply of 4gb chips.  So it's going to be a while before competitors enter the market, and I expect they will be lame attempts, as usual.

4.  The black one is really cool looking.

[JimH]

1.  The ipod mini used a hard drive, NOT flash.  The nano is the first >1gb flash player.

I think you meant 2GB.  I believe there is a 1GB Shuffle.

We have both the phone and the new Nano on order.

[jgreen]

I was trying to use shorthand to say "greater than one gigabyte."  (>)

You have the nano on order--does that mean the nano firmware will work with MC11?  Health Nut was asking about this, although I think he might have hyperventilated waiting for the Apple store to open. 

[JimH]

does that mean the nano firmware will work with MC11? 

We'll let you know next week.  My guess is that the Nano is more like the iPod than the Shuffle, which would be good.

[JimH]

I was trying to use shorthand to say "greater than one gigabyte."  (>)

I missed that, sorry.

[jgreen]

5.  The only lossless compression that any ipod supports is ALAC (apple lossless).  Someone who uses itunes will have to tell you how that works.  You'll have to convert your APE files, which MC will do on the fly when synching your ipod.

6.  All ipods acept WAV files, and most accept AIFF.  These are full bitrate PCM formats.

7.  Otherwise, we're back to mp3's, which I highly recommend for the ipod and which you don't want to hear about.

8.  JimH seems confident the nano will work just like other standard ipods.  You'll need to register the device within MC and then you're good to go, using action window /handheld player.

[hit_ny]

7.  Otherwise, we're back to mp3's, which I highly recommend for the ipod and which you don't want to hear about.

Heh yeah...he/she  still has not told us what genres he/she uses with lossless.

[Health Nut]

My guess is that the Nano is more like the iPod than the Shuffle, which would be good.

According to Apple, the nano is the replacement for the mini, so I would also assume from that statement that the nano is just a newer and smaller version of the mini....

Heh yeah...he/she  still has not told us what genres he/she uses with lossless.

I didn't answer because it is a silly question in my opinion.  I'm not going to get in religious subjective arguments about what can and cannot be perceived, ABX, and the likes.  Simply respect the fact that lossless provides ample compression for my needs and lossless is the only compression format that yields 100% quality to the master.  I don't need 10,000 songs on anything other than my computers which use lossless as well.  Just leave the religion and subjective aspects alone and leave it at personal preference.  I've been in this field for many years and I know what I prefer.

I would also like to be able to hook lossless compressed music up to my SUV car system which is nice (uses 4.1 with 4 channels of Dynaudio 3-way as well as a 15 inch widescreen in the middle and a 7 inch motorized screen up front).  I suspect my next car will have a PC or some sort of computer with MC running the music and displaying G-Force effects on the screens.  It would be great to have a similar setup to my home theater which uses a HTPC in addition to a DVD player.  (Hopefully Blu Ray and HD-DVD will have managed copies for home and car.  Only FOX is against managed copies, which is a shame.  FOX is certainly an enemy of fair usage rights of consumers).

My hope with Blu Ray and HD-DVD is that the music studios will release HD music videos with DTS Lossless or DD lossless (certainly there will be a backwards compatable DD track and likely a high quality 2 channel PCM track).  Dolby Digital lossless = MLP, so that is nice for sure.  I'm looking forward to the elimination of the failure of SACD and MLP through Blu Ray/HD-DVD's DTS lossless and DD lossless.  I'll take Pink Floyd The Wall in 1080p with 24/96 5.1 (converted from the Quad master). 

The only lossless compression that any ipod supports is ALAC (apple lossless).  Someone who uses itunes will have to tell you how that works.  You'll have to convert your APE files, which MC will do on the fly when synching your ipod.

Will MC will convert APE to ALAC on the fly while transferring to the iPod.  I plan on picking up the nano today.  I think it would be nice to hook an iPod to my car system as well.  Too bad they don't make an iPod or similar with a digital coax output... that would be ideal.

[mark_h]

The difference between 320mbps mp3 and lossless is audible, but only just...  I can certainly hear the difference on my hi-fi and with certain tracks on my ipod (using Shure E5c headphones).  For general usage, and in terms of getting more music onto my iPod I am very content with 320mb mp3 (non-VBR).

I'd also love to get low storage lossless on there but at the end of the day I accept the iPod for what it is, a non-optimal, but very convenient way to listen to music.  For real listening sessions I sit in front of my hi-fi.

Mark

[JimH]

MC doesn't encode to Apple Lossless.  You could set up a new library and convert files to wav (tell MC not to delete the originals), then use iTunes to encode to Apple Lossless.

[hit_ny]

I didn't answer because it is a silly question in my opinion. I've been in this field for many years and I know what I prefer.

Lol, why so defensive, i'm not trying to convert you to anything or put words in your mouth.

Knowing what genres ppl  listen to in their preferred format is more revealing than someone saying they prefer lossless or mp3 aps, or whatever codec.

The missing info is for WHAT ?

[Alex B]

Since "The Wall" was mentioned is just compared my "--alt-preset extreme" encoded MP3 files (separate tracks, because I encoded them before the CUE file support was added) and my archived APE/APL disc image files. When listening to the complete tracks with my best equipment it was impossible to determine which version was playing. Short samples of the possible problem parts and ABX testing would be needed for digging up the differences. (BTW, after a two-year break "The Wall" was excellent again. I was a bit tired of it last time.  )

I hope the newest portable players have better audio electronics and decoding software than the older models used to have. In case these basic things are adequate I think the next biggest quality loss with most portable players is caused by the lack of gapless playback. That is easily audible and doesn't go away with lossless files.

When listening to the single track MP3 files MC11 does good job on gapless track changes when the Gapless and "Do not play silence (leading and trailing)" playback options are both enabled. Unfortunately, that removes any intended silence too. The Wall album has both types of track changes.

These Hydrogen Audio threads have discussion about the situation of gapless playback on portables:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34879
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=27390

[hit_ny]

In case these basic things are adequate I think the next biggest quality loss with most portable players is caused by the lack of gapless playback. That is easily audible and doesn't go away with lossless files.

When listening to the single track MP3 files MC11 does good job on gapless track changes when the Gapless and "Do not play silence (leading and trailing)" playback options are both enabled. Unfortunately, that removes any intended silence too. The Wall album has both types of track changes.

These Hydrogen Audio threads have discussion about the situation of gapless playback on portables:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34879
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=27390

Saw this recently. Hopefully apple's next product fixes the situation.

[Health Nut]

Just picked up the black 4GB iPod nano today... Just started playing with it...

[Health Nut]

Are the 99 cent songs at the iPod store .wave files, i.e. original quality?  Where are the best places to download .wave, full quality songs?  I would never buy an MP3 song.  Also, is there some sort of DRM attached?  Will I be able to put it on my iPod and my home theater PC as well as burn a copy for my car CD player?  I need to be able to make sampler CD's for my car... ??

[jgreen]

itunes sells you AAC format, which is lossy compression at 128 kbps (cd = 1411 kbps).  AAC is the current best of the low-bitrate (128) lossy formats, followed by WMA, then mp3, IMO.  Whatever you buy or rent  these days, DRM is going to follow you around like a bad smell.

1..Itunes--AAC DRM apparently works well with ipods.  Apple invented both, so they'd better.  MC does NOT play AAC.

2.  Napster--WMA DRM works well with MC, but not ipod.  With napster you rent 1,000,000 tracks at $10/month.  They are WMA 128, but at $10/month, why not?  In my expreience, the WMA's are overly crisp at the high end, and problematic with high-frequency fuzz, for example Jimi Hendrix.  But well worth the price.

3--New CD's are coming out with DRM also, which is impossible to make work right. 

4.  www.etree.org  has 30 years worth of Grateful Dead live shows, all free.  The best come straight off the soundboard and are better mixes than 90% of studio CD's.  These are lossless FLAC and SHN transcoding of r2r.  Of course, you have to like the Dead.

[goatherder]

I rip my own songs. I go mostly ampless, but I do use VERY high-end headphones ($2,000+). And yet, I still use MP3 (256~320K). On the move it is impossible to tell the difference. Has anyone talked about the battery life implications of using Lossless? Because it's a hefty hit on the juice supply.


Um... did someone remove my reference to a russian site? Or did I not post it? I'm getting confused.

[Health Nut]

Why does lossless use more power?  Are you sure that it isn't a myth, or at the very least, just a very tiny amount more power consumption.  Doesn't make too much sense.

You have got to be kidding me that people actually pay $1.00 per song with lossy quality.  The studios should be very happy.  I would never, ever buy anything less than full .wav.   The point is that I would want to PURCHASE the full quality and then be able to convert it to a lesser quality if needed to fit in portable devices.  Why the hell would I want lossy quality for my home system?  Bullcrap.  I purchase CD's, and I need to be able to transfer the somgs to my computer for playback as well as my car.  When you buy a song, you should have the right to use it in your car, your home theater, or whatever playback system that you own.  Microsoft uses the term "managed copies".  Managed copies implies fair use as far as I can tell and most studios have the common sense to agree to mandatory managed copies, except for FOX. 

I'm personally just disgusted that anyone would want to pay good money for AAC or MP3 without being allowed the option to download it in .WAV or Lossless format.  Shame people are willing to pay for only the lossy copy.  All I'm saying is that we should have the option to buy the .WAV or lossless.  What a load of crap.  I'll stick to buying the whole CD and ripping the tracks in any format I deem necessary.  If DRM blocks that ability to rip for my own peronal use, I won't be buying any more CD's.  CD's degrade over time and consumers need to be able to archive their purchase as well as be able to use what they buy on the multiple devices that they personally own.  This industry is a clusterf***

Is there a Russian site as mentioned above?  Please re-post or privately email me drfunluver@yahoo.com

[Health Nut]

You could set up a new library and convert files to wav (tell MC not to delete the originals), then use iTunes to encode to Apple Lossless. 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by set up a new library.  I started reading the MC help files and came across this:

iPod Song Management with Media Center (doc v1.1)
Step 1)  Create two new custom library fields, one for each iPod user.

Open "Tools/Options/Tree and View" and click "Add" in the lower left of the window to add a new field.  Use the following parameters:

Name = "John iPod" (use YOUR name in place of “John” and let the Display field automatically enter the same text.)  Use the “General” Category and leave Keyword and Default search field blank.

I don't see "Add" anywhere... 

Also, I don't even see the iPod nano recognised as a device in MC, although iTunes software finds it and connects fine.  Anything else I should read about how to use MC and iPod nano, including basics.

 

[goatherder]

Lossless will cause the HDD to spin up more to fill the buffer, the #1 reason for battery drain on a portable player. Not sure about how it will affect the nano. 4Gb isn't much though in lossless... 8.5 albums or so at the most. Not very practical.