Topic: Media Library & All Media in MC 11.1 (Read 11336 times)

Alex B · « **on:** December 16, 2005, 11:27:03 pm »

I installed this build on my main HTPC on top of 11.0.316. Some first findings:

Media Library tree item

My startup location is Media Library and has been a long time. Now MC opens in Audio instead.

I have always used mainly the details view and "Media library" (in all media mode). Usually I go next to the advanced > disk location and limit my view by selecting a drive letter and subfolder. I store several imported and tagged file types in the album folders: audio files, image files and related documents in txt, doc, pdf or html formats. I need to see all different file types at the same time. I tag them at the same time and often send the audio files together with the album images to the Playing Now. Similarly, many of my video folders include text documents and still images.

For a little while, I had the "Advanced" branch available in 11.1. As a test I tried to drag it to the first position in tree. It appeared under Audio instead. There was no way to drag it back to where it was. Next I resetted all view schemes to the default. Now there is no Advanced item anymore. I suppose it is actually not included in MC11.1 and was available only because I installed on top of MC11.0.

The previous "Media Library" main branch was also a logical separator for the tree items. The logic was to show only the imported files under the "Media Library". Under it the user could select a subcategory. Now the former subcategories are as strong as Drives or Devices, Playlists, Services & Plugins etc.

Ctrl + F

- goes to audio. What if the user has no audio files and likes to search e.g. for similarly named images and documents?

All Media button

What is this supposed to do now?

Please bring the All Media View back. It was one of the strongest features in MC. I like the new browser, but it is useful only when the library is used for playback. 90% of the time I spend with MC is serious library maintaining. When I am listening to the music or watching videos or slideshows I don't need to use MC. MC does the work and I just enjoy the show.

Alex B · « **Reply #1 on:** December 17, 2005, 12:59:34 am »

Quote from: hit_ny on December 17, 2005, 12:38:26 am

This needs a thread of its own Alex

Your findings would resound with many.

The All Media View is needed back in some form. The debate of its location can have a thread of its own. Should there be the "Media Library" item like before and the other categories under it or should there be five main categories: All Media (former Advanced), Audio, Images, Video and Documents. Also, the Advanced category had previously a default scheme for the CD database. Without it many people will think MC11.1 can't handle offline CDs.

However, in the current state these are bugs:
- Media Library startup location
- Ctrl + F shortcut can search only audio files
- redundant All Media button

Matt · « **Reply #2 on:** December 17, 2005, 08:26:08 am »

The issue is that the "Media Library" shows a summary of the whole library, but isn't really good for looking at audio, images, or video. (it's too in-the-middle)

However, since it's at the root of the tree it's what new users gravitate towards. We watched users struggle to use it. Forcing a media type selection gets rid of the ambiguity.

I wonder if instead "All Media" could be shown as a playlist. Ctrl+F and the Media Mode "All" could jump to it. It could be configurable like a view scheme.

We're open to other ideas. (except for "make it an option so I can do it either way")

jgreen · « **Reply #3 on:** December 17, 2005, 09:01:36 am »

Matt, your reasoning reflects my own experiences as a new MC user. First time out, I was befuddled by the overlapping nature of global vs media views. I think that segregating media types is clearer for new users.

Alex B's reasoning, however, reflects my curent experiences (advanced novice, I guess). I really appreciate the power of the global view when using MC for searches. As an example, I downloaded a real audio (.ram) web radio link and then couldn't find it. Turns out that MC automatically categorized .ram files as video, even though this was audio. I only found it by going into "recently imported", which uses a global view.

So I think that search tools need to have access to all media, at least as a dreaded option.

As an alternative, make each window view completely independent. If I have 2 split views, one can be audio and the other, say, documents. Search would be done only on the "active" window. If I search the top view, the other is unaffected. This seems important from a usability standpoint. For me, having all windows captive to all searches was much more confusing than the global thing. Similarly, if I have 3 views and the bottom one is playing now, it always stays like that until I actively change it. Much less disorienting.

I think what you guys are doing on 11.1 is revolutionary stuff. Kind of sneaking it all in there, I guess. So maybe it's time to think about nailing down the views.

Alex B · « **Reply #4 on:** December 17, 2005, 09:36:44 am »

Matt,

Did you really remove the "Advanced" branch or did it happen only on my PC?

Matt · « **Reply #5 on:** December 17, 2005, 10:04:00 am »

Quote from: Alex B on December 17, 2005, 09:36:44 am

Matt,

Did you really remove the "Advanced" branch or did it happen only on my PC?

It should be there on upgrade. If you reset your view schemes (or do a fresh install), it's gone.

The advanced items were merged into the appropriate media types. (i.e. Played CDs for audio CDs, Played DVDs for DVDs, etc.)

Alex B · « **Reply #6 on:** December 17, 2005, 01:05:16 pm »

After searching for an album I see typically something like this in MC11.0:

I can read read the info files by double-clicking them. I can select music tracks together with cover art images and send them to the playing now. MC will then play the pictures in a slide show during the music playback.

Actually, it would be easy to fix MC11.1. Just make the default tree like this:

"Advanced" can be renamed to something like "All Media" or "All Library Files" if preferred. It doesn't matter to me.

It is important to preserve at least the "Hard Disk Location" and "CD & DVD" schemes (I have a lot of CDs that contain mixed format items). I see no reason why the two other default schemes could not be included too. They are good examples.

Also, I think the Documents media mode button should be included. It was illogical to remove it. I have personally never used the media mode buttons, but MC should not prioritize any media types. Some users may prefer to see only document files from time to time. MC is an all media program and MC's database is very useful for handling documents too.

The startup location options should be these:
- Start
- Audio
- Images
- Video
- Documents
- Advanced
- Playlists
- Drives & Devices

(If the Remember Media Mode option is enabled an unavailable startup location should be ignored and MC should use the one that matches the selected Media Mode.)

Naturally Ctrl + F should go to "Advanced" when the All Media button is selected.

Dutch Peter · « **Reply #7 on:** December 18, 2005, 03:03:37 am »

Quote

As an alternative, make each window view completely independent. If I have 2 split views, one can be audio and the other, say, documents. Search would be done only on the "active" window. If I search the top view, the other is unaffected. This seems important from a usability standpoint. For me, having all windows captive to all searches was much more confusing than the global thing. Similarly, if I have 3 views and the bottom one is playing now, it always stays like that until I actively change it. Much less disorienting.

This would be so great!! Number 1 on my wishlist!!!

marko · « **Reply #8 on:** December 19, 2005, 01:17:37 am »

I really like not having the media library. I often wished it wasn't there, and now it's not. great.

We really need to be able to add playlists and playlist groups to the tree root though.
It also (partially) clears up a little "navigational favourites" issue that's been hanging around like a bad smell!!

I like what we have atm, just needs a teensy-little bit of tweaking.

-marko.

GHammer · « **Reply #9 on:** December 19, 2005, 01:31:50 am »

I quite like the new layout and functions.
Makes it easier for the way I do things, and I don't get as many "How do I do this?" from friends I have try out MC.

Alex B · « **Reply #10 on:** December 19, 2005, 02:03:29 am »

marko,

Do you realize that the default MC11.1 installation does not contain the Advanced branch anymore and there is no way to get it back? After the first fresh install of MC11.1 you would not be able to click Advanced and write an artist name in the search for finding all stuff you have from that artist, like audio files, still images and music videos. You could change a view scheme under Audio, Images or Video to show the other file types too, but it would be in a wrong place since it shows the other file types.

Previously I used MC 11.1 only on my laptop with a small test library that contained mainly audio files and I didn't realize this problem.

I read the browser threads again and see now that the Advanced branch and the Document button were both deliberately removed.

I don't think "Media Library" is needed in the previous form, but a main view mode for various file types is needed.

marko · « **Reply #11 on:** December 19, 2005, 03:14:36 am »

yup. exactly...
I said as much in this thread...

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=30703.0
tree structure questions (11.1)

I still have several "all media" nodes on my tree root, one of which is a smartlist/viewscheme building test area, and these are being preserved for the time being.

If we were able to add our own searches or groups to the tree root, then there would be nothing preventing us from building our own personal "advanced" nodes, as, as far as i'm seeing here at least, the lists I currently have between "documents" and "playlists" are true "all media" nodes.

Darichman mentioned that his "advanced" node is not only being preserved, but if he renames it, it is re-created upon next install. I've not tested this here yet, instead choosing to hang out a little longer for an official solution to the problem.

-marko.

JimH · « **Reply #12 on:** December 19, 2005, 06:55:10 am »

We're still not done with this area.

marko · « **Reply #13 on:** December 20, 2005, 02:43:31 am »

Moving in the right direction...

I see that we can't change the name of the new "all and other" tree node.
I moved it to the top of the tree, which felt a much more natural place for it to be, but that may be because it landed right in the middle of the other viewschemes I have on the tree root from pre-tree-changes days, and it upset the balance of my tree.

I totally agee that ctrl+f should be linked to the current media mode rather than "all and other"

I'm still hanging out for the ability to create our own "all and other" nodes.
Those root schemes of mine have suddenly become quite precious while there's no way to recreate them. Is it likely to happen?

The played CD's and played DVD's searches in "all and other" need a [media type] limiter added to their "step 4's" as they currently return the same results. In the case of CD's, the limiter should really be [file type]=cda to filter out audio data discs from the list.

bennyd · « **Reply #14 on:** December 20, 2005, 07:23:07 am »

Quote from: marko on December 20, 2005, 02:43:31 am

I totally agee that ctrl+f should be linked to the current media mode rather than "all and other"

yes please

Matt · « **Reply #15 on:** December 20, 2005, 08:03:21 am »

You can create root schemes now in 11.1. Pick a non-library item and do Edit > Add View Scheme...

As for Ctrl+F, the debate internally leaned towards making it not switch the view (Ctrl+F in Explorer doesn't jump to Google) or jumping to a special search view.

A middle ground may be to not jump if you're in a library root view, but jump to "All Media" if you're somewhere else.

Mr ChriZ · « **Reply #16 on:** December 20, 2005, 08:20:17 am »

Quote from: Matt on December 20, 2005, 08:03:21 am

You can create root schemes now in 11.1. Pick a non-library item and do Edit > Add View Scheme...

As for Ctrl+F, the debate internally leaned towards making it not switch the view (Ctrl+F in Explorer doesn't jump to Google) or jumping to a special search view.

A middle ground may be to not jump if you're in a library root view, but jump to "All Media" if you're somewhere else.

I quite often go to interact from the start tree item. I then forget I'm in MC, and press Ctrl + F
to find something only to have it move to audio. This is especially irritating when writing something, as it is lost! Ideally the start page would remember what it was doing before moving, but removing Ctrl+F would be very useful.

Alex B · « **Reply #17 on:** December 20, 2005, 12:36:22 pm »

Quote from: Matt on December 20, 2005, 08:03:21 am

You can create root schemes now in 11.1. Pick a non-library item and do Edit > Add View Scheme...

I don't quite understand this. What should I pick?

Generally it is much better now.

I managed to build my favourite "all album" view scheme that shows the album images and documents besides the music files:

Click to enlarge.

I made a new calculated field:

and added it to my view scheme:

I can now show all albums sorted and labeled by "Artist - Album". The view itself is fine, but opening it is extremely slow. It takes over 30 seconds before the view can be used. The view has 38547 files.

Is there anything that can be done to make it faster?

marko · « **Reply #18 on:** December 20, 2005, 01:36:45 pm »

Quote from: Matt on December 20, 2005, 08:03:21 am

You can create root schemes now in 11.1. Pick a non-library item and do Edit > Add View Scheme...

this is not working here. unless I misunderstand what you mean by "non-library item". If I select "start", or "services" then do Edit>Add view scheme" the new view scheme is created as a child of the "All and Other" group, not as a root scheme??

Quote

As for Ctrl+F, the debate internally leaned towards making it not switch the view (Ctrl+F in Explorer doesn't jump to Google) or jumping to a special search view.

A middle ground may be to not jump if you're in a library root view, but jump to "All Media" if you're somewhere else.

Sounds OK. would need to play with it to know for sure though.

marko · « **Reply #19 on:** December 21, 2005, 04:16:00 am »

onto build 86 now... getting a little confused, but hanging in there, aware that my reluctance to reset to default views is probably not helping.

Filters I had in the old media library view are still active after all. I discovered this after noticing discrepencies in the file count when selecting\deselecting the honour parent searches tick box on the all and other viewscheme. I added an exclusion there for all the online radio streams I had imported into my library; this exclusion is being honoured, but I have no access to it now. To remove it, I guess I would need to reset to defaults, which is fine. I do not want to do this though untill I know that I can recreate the viewschemes I currently have on the tree root.

I still cannot create a viewscheme on the tree root. new schemes are created as children of "all and other"
could we get more precise instructions on how to achieve this?
please

Alex B · « **Reply #20 on:** December 21, 2005, 02:52:59 pm »

Quote from: Mr ChriZ on December 21, 2005, 02:04:02 pm

Would it be possible to sort by artist under Album view?
Theres a subtle difference between this and Artist view, which
combines albums for each artist... but it's still a view I'd like...
Unless of course I'm missing something and it's already there :-)

Check my previous reply here. The view I made works, but it is too slow because MC has to calculate each item.

What we would need is an album view sorted by [Album Artist (Auto)], [Album]. It would be good to have the label text as Artist - Album too. Also, the font size should be smaller.

Mr ChriZ · « **Reply #21 on:** December 21, 2005, 05:17:23 pm »

Does "All and other" not seem a bit strange to anyone?
Usually All is fairly encompassing, so how can there be an other?
Or is this a stopgap soloution?

marko · « **Reply #22 on:** December 22, 2005, 01:46:52 am »

Quote from: Mr ChriZ on December 21, 2005, 05:17:23 pm

Does "All and other" not seem a bit strange to anyone?
Usually All is fairly encompassing, so how can there be an other?
Or is this a stopgap soloution?

It was on my bug list for a mention next time it gets posted. Removed now that you've mentioned it here.
how about "in-depth" perhaps? "advanced" or "global" were another couple of thoughts....
it certainly feels like a stopgap solution, hopefully; it is

-marko.

marko · « **Reply #23 on:** December 22, 2005, 03:15:51 am »

Quote from: Matt on December 20, 2005, 08:03:21 am

You can create root schemes now in 11.1. Pick a non-library item and do Edit > Add View Scheme...

I cannot create root schemes in this way. Not by default anyways...

If I hide the default browser (default).jmd file in the default rescources directory, delete the browser.jmd from the library directory, I get an empty tree with no viewschemes at all, "playlists" is directly under "playing now".
Now the above method works a treat.
It looks as though I could carry on and build my own tree from scratch. Why is "All and Other" so important that it cannot be renamed or deleted?

I don't really want to build my tree from scratch, so for now, I'll just add this to my bug list and see what the future brings.

Alex B · « **Reply #24 on:** December 22, 2005, 04:16:26 pm »

Quote from: Matt on December 22, 2005, 01:19:25 pm

5. Changed: Removed "All & Other" from the tree.

So this removed my view:

Quote from: Alex B on December 20, 2005, 12:36:22 pm

Generally it is much better now.

I managed to build my favourite "all album" view scheme that shows the album images and documents besides the music files:

Click to enlarge.

I can now show all albums sorted and labeled by "Artist - Album". The view itself is fine, but opening it is extremely slow. It takes over 30 seconds before the view can be used. The view has 38547 files.

Is there anything that can be done to make it faster?

What was the problem? Someone didn't like the name and another user didn't want to start in "All and Other". Why didn't you change the name and startup options instead?

I guess I have to make my various media view under one of the other main gategories or are you going to make this work:

Quote from: Matt on December 20, 2005, 08:03:21 am

You can create root schemes now in 11.1. Pick a non-library item and do Edit > Add View Scheme...

Matt · « **Reply #25 on:** December 22, 2005, 04:50:32 pm »

This still works for me:

You can create root schemes now in 11.1. Pick a non-library item ("Start" for example) and do Edit > Add View Scheme... from the menu.

Alex B · « **Reply #26 on:** December 22, 2005, 05:18:39 pm »

Quote from: Matt on December 22, 2005, 04:50:32 pm

This still works for me:

You can create root schemes now in 11.1. Pick a non-library item ("Start" for example) and do Edit > Add View Scheme... from the menu.

Thanks, I got it now. I tried it only by right-clicking the tree items. I didn't try the top menu command.

Would it be possible add the [Album Artist (auto)], [Album] sort option to the Album mode? I suppose it would be much faster than my calculated view. I don't think it is very useful to see hundreds or thousands of music album covers sorted by the arbitary album names.

Also, it would be nice have an option for a smaller font size and an user defined text sting (like Thumbnail Text in Customize Current View). This screenshot is from 11.1.84, but the font size problem is the same:

marko · « **Reply #27 on:** December 23, 2005, 01:29:53 am »

removing "all and other" fixed the "can't create root schemes" problem.

the current setup works, which is excellent, and is also exactly what I was after all along, which is always a nice bonus.

thank you.

edit:
almost forgot...
Alex, I quite like this mornings avatar... much better than yesterdays... keep them coming

urlwolf · « **Reply #28 on:** December 23, 2005, 03:59:55 am »

Damn, MC is changing so fast that if one doesn't stop by the forums everyday, it is difficult to make sense of the new features. I don't know if the new design is helping new users (probably), but it is taking time from the old ones to get used to it, that's for sure. I still miss the document view, as I use MC on a laptop basically as an explorer replacement to browse pdf files.

hit_ny · « **Reply #29 on:** December 23, 2005, 07:30:31 am »

Quote from: urlwolf on December 23, 2005, 03:59:55 am

**, MC is changing so fast that if one doesn't stop by the forums everyday, it is difficult to make sense of the new features. I don't know if the new design is helping new users (probably), but it is taking time from the old ones to get used to it, that's for sure. I still miss the document view, as I use MC on a laptop basically as an explorer replacement to browse pdf files.

Didn't Matt say Documents would appear if you created it or had it already ?

zxsix · « **Reply #30 on:** December 23, 2005, 08:33:36 am »

Import a Word file in the latest build of MC and you will have the documents branch back on the tree.
It will already be there if you had previously imported documents.

Dutch Peter · « **Reply #31 on:** December 23, 2005, 10:37:19 am »

Quote from: zxsix on December 23, 2005, 08:33:36 am

Import a Word file in the latest build of MC and you will have the documents branch back on the tree.
It will already be there if you had previously imported documents.

And you can only delete it after removing the documents from the library. I checked and it works.

lukecro · « **Reply #32 on:** December 24, 2005, 07:55:10 pm »

Quote from: marko on December 20, 2005, 02:43:31 am

I totally agee that ctrl+f should be linked to the current media mode rather than "all and other" I'm still hanging out for the ability to create our own "all and other" nodes.

I'm getting a little bit lost as this thread grows longer and the changes keep coming fast... This "All Media" thing is a bit concerning, but over all I'm digging the new MC (honestly, I think it's awesome, except that it's crashing twice a day, but beta MC builds always seem to be crash-prone on my PC, so I'm not sweating it right now) ....

It looks like with the latest build (11.1.89) we no longer have any kind of "All Media" (or "all and other") views available anywhere, much less in a convenient place on the tree. We do have the option of adding our own view schemes, but it doesn't seem like "All Media" is a view scheme that can be added (although I might just not understand how to use the Add Scheme screen effectively). That doesn't seem right ... Am I missing something?

Why I think "All Media" is convenient:

Let's say a user wants to see all of his/her album art, music videos, and mp3 files for a particular band, for instance. Or you want to rename/retag/move some cover art at the same time as it's associated music files. Etc. There are lots of times when even a pretty basic user will want to sort through all of his media at once and not just be stuck in only Audio, only Video, or only Image... It's always been one of the strengths of MC -- it's can handle it all, or it can handle just some, depending on the user's needs at any particular time...

However, I agree that ctrl+f should be linked to the current media mode rather than "all and other" .... but I do like having an "All Media" view scheme available. It shouldn't be the default view or search area, but it should be a scheme that can be conveniently accessed by all users. Having it under an "Advanced" scheme would make sense if you wanted to keep newbies away from it at first.

Cheap Music for the Masses

JimH · « **Reply #33 on:** December 24, 2005, 08:09:02 pm »

Quote from: lukecro on December 24, 2005, 07:55:10 pm

...I'm digging the new MC (honestly, I think it's awesome, except that it's crashing twice a day, but beta MC builds always seem to be crash-prone on my PC, so I'm not sweating it right now) ....

Please check the FAQ on this board for possible reasons for crashes. There are many.

marko · « **Reply #34 on:** December 25, 2005, 02:58:23 am »

Quote from: lukecro on December 24, 2005, 07:55:10 pm

It looks like with the latest build (11.1.89) we no longer have any kind of "All Media" (or "all and other") views available anywhere, much less in a convenient place on the tree. We do have the option of adding our own view schemes, but it doesn't seem like "All Media" is a view scheme that can be added (although I might just not understand how to use the Add Scheme screen effectively). That doesn't seem right ... Am I missing something?

try going to the playing now view.
now click on "edit > add view scheme" (from MC's main toolbar)
now you have a blank canvas. when you've finished setting it up and click OK to save, the viewscheme will be placed on the tree root. If you like all media, just call it that and leave step 4 empty. tadaaaa

lukecro · « **Reply #35 on:** December 25, 2005, 12:42:46 pm »

Quote from: marko on December 25, 2005, 02:58:23 am

try going to the playing now view.
now click on "edit > add view scheme" (from MC's main toolbar)
now you have a blank canvas. when you've finished setting it up and click OK to save, the view scheme will be placed on the tree root. If you like all media, just call it that and leave step 4 empty. tadaaaa

Ahhhh.... I see. That is easy!

I'd tried to do this in the recent past (using the right-click "add view scheme" to get to it, I believe) but I thought , for some reason, that Step 3 (Modify Properties), under the "Image" drop-down, I was being forced to choose a particular scheme such as Audio or Video, etc... I didn't realize (foolishly) that "Image" was just the icon that would be displayed in the menu and that I'd actually see all media if I left Step 4 empty. But now I see how it all works... very nice.

Creating an All Media scheme -- much less even thinking about creating a scheme or even knowing what "scheme" means or why one would be useful -- isn't going to be very intuitive, IMHO, for people who've never created a scheme before... but once it's understood how this "add view scheme" works, it's obviously an impressive feature.

thank you

Alex B · « **Reply #36 on:** December 28, 2005, 04:34:11 pm »

Quote from: Matt on December 28, 2005, 03:35:47 pm

Quote from: imjustagamer on December 28, 2005, 02:21:50 pm
9. NEW: Added support for "Details" list of grouped items for detailed artist, album, genre, etc. lists. (experiment -- may not remain)

Not to sound stupid, But what exactly is this?

It lets you view groupings (genres, artists, albums) as list entries just like you would with tracks.

To try it:
Click "Audio" in the tree > Pick "Albums" from the "Audio" drop list at the top left of the view > Click the "Audio" drop list again and choose Options > Details

This is great. Though, I would like to see the Album Artist (auto) column too.

Quote

10. Changed: Tuned tile bordering to provide a larger image.
11. Changed: Reduced the text size of the labels on tiles.

These are better now.

Have you considered making the "Album Artist (auto) - Album" sort order and text label available? I really would like to see the albums sorted first by the artist names and after that by the album names.

Alex B · « **Reply #37 on:** January 02, 2006, 04:32:09 pm »

Quote from: Matt on January 02, 2006, 02:13:18 pm

Thanks so much David.

This should be fixed in a build of MC 11.1 going up in an hour or so.

And talk about a stress-test --- 270,000 tracks is a new record

Best,
-Matt

(p.s. the calculated view scheme at the root of audio is really hurting performance -- we'll see if we can tune it on our end, but you may be better off using non-calculated fields with such a huge library)

I have only about 40,000 files and my calculated view is too slow to be practical:

Quote from: Alex B on December 20, 2005, 12:36:22 pm

and added it to my view scheme:

I can now show all albums sorted and labeled by "Artist - Album". The view itself is fine, but opening it is extremely slow. It takes over 30 seconds before the view can be used. The view has 38547 files.

Is there anything that can be done to make it faster?

The plain album view displays the same images much faster, but the album name based sort order is useless for a complete library. Could it be possible change the sort order and label to [Album Artist (auto)] - [Album] ?

Alex B · « **Reply #38 on:** January 03, 2006, 07:11:24 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on December 20, 2005, 12:36:22 pm

I can now show all albums sorted and labeled by "Artist - Album". The view itself is fine, but opening it is extremely slow. It takes over 30 seconds before the view can be used. The view has 38547 files.

Quote

11.1.92 (01/03/06)

1. Optimized: Improved the speed of calculated template-style fields.

The initial display time is now about 3 seconds. It is 10x faster. Thanks!

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Media Library & All Media in MC 11.1 (Read 11336 times)