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Author Topic: MC11 CD playback: overaggressive track switching?  (Read 2012 times)

Yxx

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MC11 CD playback: overaggressive track switching?
« on: January 01, 2006, 01:30:47 am »

version: MC11.0.316

<new user, first post> please excuse me if i missed a prior post on this subject.

MC11 playback of the CD: The Who: Live at Leeds (MCAD-11215) (1995 rereleased expanded version)

problem occurs when MC skips over end of song applause/band chatter and charges into the next track.  this does not happen with Windows Media Player or WinAmp. [note, this is simple CD "play" functionality]

people familiar with this classic rock album know that this version of the concert recording captures the feeling of continuity of a live performance, including between song comments and quips from the band.  for some reason MC steps in and decides to cut off a second or two of this at the end of each track.  its important to note that this is MC11 vanilla, untouched or adjusted, with the settings it was downloaded with all intact.

i realize there is a Playback Options section, for various settings on switching tracks & crossfade, but to me this presents the user with decisions that should be BASED on normal playback.  Normal playback of this CD, whether using computer software mentioned or a standard CD player, includes these portions of the album.  why would MC11 be distributed with a vanilla configuration that varies from full playback of the CD?

while im hoping that this issue has been noted and patched, or there is some acceptable explanation for the behavior of MC11 in this situation, i must admit being disappointed in this error.   its troubling to consider the prospect of building a library of music with a product that on its own chooses to edit out portions of a recording, without being instructed to do so.

thanks for your comments and suggestions.
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JimH

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Re: MC11 CD playback: overaggressive track switching?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2006, 08:20:18 am »

It sounds like you have cross fade set for track switching.  Please try some of the other options. 

Did you try ripping the CD to see what happens when you play it from a hard disc?
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Alex B

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Re: MC11 CD playback: overaggressive track switching?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2006, 08:51:42 am »

From the program help:
Quote
AUDIO SETTINGS

Switch Tracks
 This setting describes how the program sounds when it changes tracks.

- Standard. The traditional method of changing tracks. One track comes to a complete stop, there is a brief pause, and the next track begins.

- Cross-fade (smooth) or Cross-fade (aggressive). This blends the end of one track with the beginning of the next track. It makes track changes smooth - much like the transitions used in clubs and on radio stations. A smooth fade slowly fades one song out as the next fades in. An aggressive fade starts the new song at full volume and slowly fades the old song out.

- Gapless. Track changes are perfectly seamless. There is no pause between the end of one track and the beginning of the next. Useful on classical and other recordings where track boundaries don't always occur during silence.
.
Probably "Standard" is the default mode and does not produce the result you would like to get, but the "Gapless" option plays the CD Audio track boundaries exactly like they are recorded. Also, the "Digital Playback" mode should be enabled for high quality results:
Quote
Note: Some of these options will only affect the playback of an Audio CD if you have "Use Digital Playback" selected under Tools > Options > Devices. Some CD drives do not recognize digital playback. If you have a problem playing Audio CDs, try disabling this option.
.
For ripped and encoded audio tracks the situation is bit more complicated because not all file formats are gapless by design. Especially MP3 and WMA 9.1 (installed with WMP10 or MC11) are not perfectly gapless because the track boundaries after the files are decompressed do not match with the original ones. The best gapless experience with these file types can be achieved with the options "Gapless" and "Do not play silence (leading and trailing)". However, this removes also the intended silent parts on the track boundaries. I would recommend using one of the supported gapless formats instead: Monkey's Audio, Musepack, Ogg Vorbis, WMA Lossless or FLAC (with scthom's plug-ins).
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Yxx

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Re: MC11 CD playback: overaggressive track switching?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2006, 01:56:58 pm »

MC11.0.316 ships (downloads) with a default setting of:

Playback Options > Audio Settings > Switch Tracks: Cross-fade (aggressive) -4s

Alex B's suggestion of using the "Gapless" setting did solve the problem with "Live at Leeds", thanks Alex  8)

[P.S. MC11.0.316 comes with -  Tools > Devices > Audio CD > Use Digitial Playback is checked (on)]

but this setting makes a recording such as Audioslave's self titled album skip the normal gap between songs, as one would expect from the term "gapless", making the playback sound rushed.  the 'Gapless" setting, does not, in fact, present us with a playback option that plays the CD the way a CD player would.

experimenting with Audio Settings > Switch Tracks > Standard (gapped) - 4s to similate what seemed like the 4 second gap (rough calculation) one hears on a CD player or using Windows Media Player, between track #s 2 and 3 of Audioslave.  the Standard setting requires the user to choose the number of seconds of silence to insert between tracks.  if you then try to play the "Live at Leeds" album with this setting, the result is every track is trunkated by a seconds or two and 4 seconds of silence are placed between, which for this album is all wrong.

now, i do realize Playback Settings has an "Alternate Mode Settings" area, where one could store choices for gapless (for example) when playing an recording that is suited to that selection, but this misses my point.

why doesnt MC11 offer a setting that just plays the album as it would be played by a standard CD player - in other words - VANILLA? a user may choose to manipulate song gaps and silence for ripping purposes, but as i said in my original post, this should be built on standard normal playback of the CD.  The Beatles, Yes, and other rock, electronic and jazz groups, and ofcourse much of classical recordings, have produced albums through the years often include tracks that segue into eachother, or seem to end with long gaps of silence only to start up again.  take an album such as Abby Road side 2 for examples of all those features. 

Jim H wrote:
Quote
It sounds like you have cross fade set for track switching.  Please try some of the other options.

Did you try ripping the CD to see what happens when you play it from a hard disc?

i realize part of the purpsose of the MC product line is for taking cumbersome physical media (CDs, etc) and transforming them to more flexable formats where they can be organized into convienient and accessible libraries.  the first step, before ripping a CD, is accurate playback.  MC has to get that right first.  there will be times when i will need/expect MC to just play a CD for me.  will it be necessary for the user to anticipate MC settings for each individual CD in order for it  to be played back normally?  (by normally here, i mean how it would be played back by a CD player)

my apologies if i sound a bit rough trying to hammer home this point, but why cant i play a CD from begining to end with MC11 and have it sound like it does on any CD player, just as it was recorded and intended to be heard?  in my mind, i should just have to hit PLAY to hear a classical or other gapless album, and standard tracked pop record, just as it would play anywhere else.  no intervention should be required, as far as setting go.  IF the user wanted to tweak the gaps or lengthen the duration of the silences, fine!  added features are welcome and extra effort is expected.   

the fact that MC offers a wide variety of tweaking flavors and options is a huge plus and will be useful.  please dont get me wrong.  but at the beginning, im looking for vanilla ... in this case vanilla CD playback.  Jim H or anyone, can you direct me to it?

thanks again.

[edit - added digital playback setting info]
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Alex B

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Re: MC11 CD playback: overaggressive track switching?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2006, 05:41:56 pm »

I suppose the default playback settings have been the same for years and I have no idea why the settings have originally been chosen. However, I think MC is like an AV receiver or some other advanced audio component. You really need to read the manual and make your own configuration settings for getting the most out of it.

I don't know what causes your playback problems, but I have found the CD playback be completely gapless (= same as the original. It does not add or delete anything).

From the CDs you mentioned I have only Abbey Road (Digitally remastered 1987 by EMI Records Ltd. Apple/Parlophone: CDP 7 46446 2).

I tested the playback behavior with it. It played exactly like it does on my stand-alone hi-fi CD player.

My soundcard: Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96 with the latest Terratec and ASIO4ALL drivers.

My settings:
Use digital playback: Selected
Output mode: ASIO (Wave Out and Direct Sound are OK too)
Switch tracks: Gapless
Do not play silence: Not selected
DSP: None selected

These MC settings should work with any standard Audio CD.

Please, post more details about your configuration and also your system info from the Help menu, like mine here:


Media Center Registered 11.1.90 -- C:\Soft\MC\

Microsoft Windows XP  Workstation 5.1 Service Pack 1 (Build 2600)
Intel Pentium 4 2858 MHz MMX / Memory: Total - 1048 MB, Free - 660 MB

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2800.1106 / ComCtl32.dll: 5.82.2800 / Shlwapi.dll: 6.0.2800 / Shell32.dll: 6.0.2800 / wnaspi32.dll: 4.71 (0002) , ASPI for Win32         DLL, Copyright © 1989-2002 Adaptec, Inc. / Aspi32.sys: 4.71 (0002)

Ripping /   Drive F: HL-DT-STRW/DVD GCC-4480B  Mode:ModeSecure  Type:Auto  Speed:Max
  Drive G: AXV     CD/DVD-ROM        Mode:Normal  Type:Auto  Speed:Max
  Digital playback: Yes /  Use YADB: No /  Get cover art: No /  Calc replay gain: No /  Copy volume: 32767
  Eject after ripping: Yes /  Play sound after ripping: No 

Burning /  Drive F: HL-DT-ST RW/DVD GCC-4480B   Addr: 2:0:0  Speed:10  MaxSpeed:10  BurnProof:Yes
  Test mode: No /  Eject after writing: Yes /  Direct decoding: Yes /  Write CD-Text: Yes
  Use playback settings: No /
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jgreen

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Re: MC11 CD playback: overaggressive track switching?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2006, 06:36:25 pm »

Yxx--
Is it possible that you have the setting, "Output/Do Not Play silence (leading and trailing)" enabled?  This would account for the non-CD playback. I think this is also on by default, maybe JimH knows why.

BTW, welcome.  I thnk you're going to love MC.  IMO, far better media management than WinAmp, and blew doors on WMP in every category.
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Yxx

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Re: MC11 CD playback: overaggressive track switching?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2006, 02:11:34 pm »

I suppose the default playback settings have been the same for years and I have no idea why the settings have originally been chosen. However, I think MC is like an AV receiver or some other advanced audio component. You really need to read the manual and make your own configuration settings for getting the most out of it.

I don't know what causes your playback problems, but I have found the CD playback be completely gapless (= same as the original. It does not add or delete anything).

From the CDs you mentioned I have only Abbey Road (Digitally remastered 1987 by EMI Records Ltd. Apple/Parlophone: CDP 7 46446 2).

I tested the playback behavior with it. It played exactly like it does on my stand-alone hi-fi CD player.

My soundcard: Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96 with the latest Terratec and ASIO4ALL drivers.

My settings:
Use digital playback: Selected
Output mode: ASIO (Wave Out and Direct Sound are OK too)
Switch tracks: Gapless
Do not play silence: Not selected
DSP: None selected

These MC settings should work with any standard Audio CD.

jgreen wrote:

Quote
Is it possible that you have the setting, "Output/Do Not Play silence (leading and trailing)" enabled?  This would account for the non-CD playback. I think this is also on by default, maybe JimH knows why.

testing with my own copy of Abbey Road (same exact version) with both "Switch Tracks" and "Do not play silence" CHANGED FROM THEIR DEFAULT SETTING WHEN DISTRIBUTED, to "gapless" and uncheck "Do not play silence (leading and trailing)" yielded the desired result: standard vanilla CD playback.  thanks for the tips, gents.

while i take your point about manuals and complex components, Alex, following the stereo metaphor a bit further, one would NOT expect to unbox a reciever with Left/Right channels switched, a sharp rolloff of signal above 4.5khz and shuffle playback set on by default.  one must start from somewhere, and to me thats a standard configuration which is as idential to universal and unmanipulated as possible.  the manual can lead you down the road to modifications and tweaks, but as a purist (yes, i admit it ;)) PLAY is "play" and not artificial endsong trunkation.   im kind of surprised that no one else has noticed, or bothered to complain/comment about MC's intervention in this very basic of functionalities.  both Alex B and jgreen mused why the default settings are what they are ... a riddle that still goes unanswered.

may i be so bold, as a newbie to these forums, to recommend that MC distribute its future releases/versions with these settings configured properly by default?

on a side note, what a pleasure it was to listen to Abbey Road again while scrutinizing settings, an album which has managed to remain as remarkably fresh and brilliant as the day we first spun it on our turntables 36 odd years ago.  perfection is timeless.
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Matt

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Re: MC11 CD playback: overaggressive track switching?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2006, 02:16:49 pm »

There is no "configured properly."  That's why it's an option.

We try to make choices most users would appreciate out of the box.

Glad to hear you have it working as you like now.
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