Topic: Serious Question About P2P Discussions In Interact (Read 3526 times)

Doof · « **on:** September 17, 2002, 08:30:12 pm »

Twice this week (maybe even twice today) I've noticed threads about P2P software get axed here on Interact. My question is simple. Is discussion of P2P software, even specific P2P applications, really a bad thing?

Are we to assume that every P2P app is used solely for pirating music? I mean, we all know that the majority of fileswapping going on is, in fact, illegal. But do we then condemn talk of P2P technology altogether?

There are some in the industry that would view MJ as part of the problem of piracy as well. After all, if there weren't any mp3 rippers or players, then there would be nothing to trade on any of the P2P networks.

Should we then take a sentence like the one I posted above "I mean, we all know that the majority of fileswapping going on is, in fact, illegal." and apply that to jukeboxes? "I mean, we all know that the majority of mp3 playback going on is, in fact, illegal."

If the RIAA had their way, all mp3 players, rippers, burners, p2p software, hell even the mp3 technology would all be illegal. We're all in the same boat here. Bearshare, Kazaa, iMesh, even Napster weren't to blame for music pirating anymore than Winamp, Sonique, MJ, and Microsoft are.

MP3 is a technology that allows audio files to be compressed to about a tenth in size. There is nothing inherently illegal about that.

MJ is a software application that makes it possible for us to create MP3's from audio files, even from CD's that we purchased. It allows us to also listen to those files. There is nothing inherently illegal about that.

P2P is a technology that allows people to easily swap files. There is nothing inherently wrong about that either.

It's what people use these tools for that is illegal. And I can completely agree with keeping discussion about illegally swapping copywrighted material out of Interact. But nobody has ever read something akin to "Listening to: 'Tuesday's Gone' by 'Lynyrd Skynyrd' on Media Jukebox" and asked the user for proof that they own that song on some legitimate media, sold to them by the record label that produced it. Nobody ever asks why we all care what encoders get the best compression and quality. Hell, we even talk about beer in here and nobody ever asks if all participating parties are of a legal drinking age.

We can talk about rippers, encoders, players and burners to our hearts' content in here. But P2P itself is unallowed. I don't understand that. The two threads I saw that were closed didn't even mention filetrading. They were only general questions about P2P applications. Which one was best, which ones caused system conflicts, etc. I just don't see a problem with that.

By closing the threads based solely on the fact that they involve P2P, we're just assuming guilt. Ignoring completely the fact that many new artists offer up their own music, completely legally for download to the masses so they can avoid the bull#### of dealing with the record labels.

P2P is not inherently illegal. It's what's done with it that is. I don't think that discussion of P2P is inherently bad and should therefore be automatically banned and deleted, either.

But it's not my board, and I will respect the decisions of those who let us use this place. I just wanted to voice my opinion on the subject.

Scronch · « **Reply #1 on:** September 17, 2002, 09:09:31 pm »

Are you of legal drinking age?

JimH · « **Reply #2 on:** September 18, 2002, 04:50:31 am »

Doof,
You make a lot of good points, but we would like to steer around the controversy and its legal problems.

Eventually, things will get sorted out, and we'd like to be part of whatever new business emerges rather than road-kill along the way.

If you want to talk about the ethics of it or anything that is legal, go ahead, but I think the conversation will tend to drift into RIAA bashing. I'm not their biggest fan, but they do have a serious legitimate purpose.

If the conversation starts into "where do I get [some music title]", I'll lock the thread.

There must be other places to talk about this?

Jim

Doof · « **Reply #3 on:** September 18, 2002, 05:42:53 am »

I guess my biggest problem was a thread about BearShare causing problems with MJ was closed (presumably by King Sparta) and I can't understand why. That's a legitimate topic in the vein of MJ support. It hadn't even remotely started going into a "Where can I find x song" type of thread, and yet it was closed.

As a moderator of Interact, I just want to be clear on what we're allowing and what we're not, and why. I personally would have left that thread intact until (if) it started to stray into illegal territory. But I also don't blame King (if in fact it was he that closed the thread) for doing so because historically, P2P discussion has been killed really quickly around here.

Thanks for the clarification.

Oh, and yes. I am (unfortunately) well beyond the legal drinking age. Well, not by like 20 years or anything, but I still miss being 21.

zevele1 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 18, 2002, 06:03:52 am »

UPDATE;I was typing since JimH and Doof posted,my post has to be "see" as after the first Doof one

Well.i will try to put what i think in an allmost good english..........

First keep in mind that JRiver is not only a jukebox,and they are not in the easyer situation concerning p2p.They make bread from it selling they jukebox, but they have other projects making supporting p2p ,even only in an open\free forum is not the best behaviour they can have.
If you know it,or you accept it or you go to any other places.

But since few months,there is no wise balance on Interact-and not only concerning p2p,but at the general level.The forum as today is not the one i found when buying MJ 7.2 one year ago.

We are now in a situation akin to a town with half the population prostitutes,the other half having sex with them few times a week and the local health-center saying they do not want to ear about sexual diseases.
I would like the next pool to be:"do you have any music coming from a p2p on your computer" yes no

Do you want to bet about the result? A 80-95% of yes INCLUDING part of Jrivers staff.

Do all of this raison enought to have posts 'what is the best P2p',
"where can i find 60' Rock$roll",the answer is NO

There is other places with this kind of stuff.If someone really wants a p2p\MJ user forum or chat,you can open home page free,even have a good forum at no cost or very small price.

But i would like the word p2p not provocating the same reaction than the word AIDS 10 years ago on Interact.

I would like to be able to post a link 'here is a link with review of all existing p2p'

or: 'there is a new trojan in some Kazaa files. Here a link to a free program to scan your drives.'

When Audiogalaxy was shut down,i was downloading from it.I posted:'Audiogalaxy shut down,do not try to use it anymore'.Only this .My post was deleted after 4 minutes.
It was a stupid thing to do.It was an info,like Yahoo! shut down Email services'.But because it was a AIDS\p2p , it was deleted.
If JRiver does not want a post to start to 'blow-up' about some topics,there is still the 'close the post' solution.Like it the info stays for other members.

Concerning the posts about some users having problem with MJ and Bearshare[?].
To close the post saying'it not a place to speak about p2p 'is a VERY STUPID answer.

This people do not speak about a p2p.They speak about a program who makes problems to MJ.
MJ need to have a look.Maybe there is a still unknow bug in MJ.This is the occasion to fix it.Maybe MJ has a problem with the p2p fonctions.I mean on a general level,there is more than Napster,p2p is a protocol that many 'no music files' softwares use.

It can be that MJ has not any problem with the p2p protocol and that the problem is only with this music files p2p,and they do not see a work-around to solve the problem.

If the only answer is to close the post,in this case i have an answer as much as stupid:"do not use MJ,buy another one".

As a power xx p2p user i never had any conflic MJ\p2p software.
If yes ,i would post.If post closed,ok.But to me using p2p is more importantthan to use MJ,and i am not the only one like it.I would stop to use MJ

It is funny that posts like "how can i rip streaming music to my hard drive" is not a problem on Interact.

The answer you get is this one: "Use TotalRecorder.But you can do it with MJ using Mixer[?] go to...open.... set ...to ... and here you are ,you rip a stream,thank you MJ!

But as far as i know most of the streams are not to be rip.Can be an artist putting some full songs to listen to.But this artist does not want this songs to be rip,just to be stream.In my opinion,it is a very fair deal that an artist put some full songs to stream.

To rip the songs is even more unfair than to use a p2p.Unlike many,this artist\label gives you something,and you betray them .

The other case is if you pay to stream music like with some services.You know you pay to get stream,not rip.You buy this service because you want it,you say "yes" to the agrement and 2 minutes latter you do not respect it by ripping the stream!!!!!!!!

And not only you can post about it without problem,but you can made something illegal using MJ............

I really like MJ,even more Interact and i like JimH.
But i really feel the 3 of them have to think about another way to deal with some issues

Now,let me tell you about using p2p not to share music.

I did a test with a friend who is in a town 40 kilometers from Tel-Aviv.
I sent him a picture.So you know the way=email,upload the picture to server=open email,download from the server.Even with both sides on ADSL,not that fast.
I changed the name of the picture to 'zevmau'[his name is Maurice]
Both of us running Imesh=search=download at 75 kp\s .Much easy and fast than with email

Galley · « **Reply #5 on:** September 18, 2002, 06:10:23 am »

Virtually everything that is shared via P2P is copyrighted material, so they should be made illegal. If you really need to share a document with a friend, then use e-mail or Windows Messenger.

zevele1 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 18, 2002, 06:27:55 am »

Galley.
We just did it to see.I understand we had the luck to be on the same ??-do not remember the word

I and family and friends-we are 4\5 thousands kilometers away- use all the Yahoo! services for pictures,programs,music exchange

KingSparta · « **Reply #7 on:** September 18, 2002, 06:30:25 am »

Doof

JimH does not want P2P Talk in the forum and has stated so many times.

>> Are we to assume that every P2P app is used solely for
>> pirating music?
even more so in a Music\music program forum, and this only validates it

My feelings in the matter don't matter it's not my forum.

I did answer the question however, it is a "BearShare Problem"

zevele1 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 18, 2002, 06:53:26 am »

King

You are 100% right,speaking p2p here means sharing music programs.

But how do you know it is a BearShare problem?
How do you know that in fact the problem caused by Bearshare does not put light on a MJ problem until now not found.In this case better to keep the post open.As you saw more than one user said they have this problem.
If after few hours you see many have the same problem,in my opinion it is worth for MJ to have a look.
Of cause the answer can be that it is really a BearShare problem,nothing we can do about it,the 2 programs do not mix well,so try to use another one.

Do not mind about what i said concerning this post,i speak at a general level,no person related

I had ostrich at lunch

KingSparta · « **Reply #9 on:** September 18, 2002, 07:13:28 am »

>> But how do you know it is a BearShare problem?
Top Secret, you do not have clearance

>>I had ostrich at lunch
the other red meat

Doof · « **Reply #10 on:** September 18, 2002, 07:17:59 am »

I think zevele hit what I've been thinking right on the head.

We can talk about ripping streams, but not P2P.
We can bash Real and Microsoft, but not the RIAA.
We can talk about problems that WMP9 may introduce into our MJ installations, but not BearShare.

I mean, if Jim wants a blanket ban on all talk of P2P, then that's fine. I'll play along. I participate on boards that don't censor anything and I participate on boards that very strictly enforce sets of rules about topicality, flames, etc.

It doesn't mean I'm not going to question the status quo once in a while, though.

I also think it's really slippery to something like "Virtually everything that is shared via P2P is copyrighted material, so they should be made illegal." Especially when I can pretty reasonably say the same thing about any kind of audio compression technology.

P2P is a technology. With it, I can find illegally traded music. I can also find uncopywrighted music, sound effects, images, game demos (without having to wait in line at FilePlanet!), and documents about some very serious and legitimate topics. There is more to P2P than just pirated music. Just like there is more to the Internet than porn sites.

It's not the technology that's to blame. It's the users.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

With guns.

Oh, nevermind.

JimH · « **Reply #11 on:** September 18, 2002, 07:25:18 am »

doof,
> We can bash Real and Microsoft, but not the RIAA.

You may not see it, but I try to separate valid criticism from bashing. "Real Sucks" or "Microsoft Sucks" posts will always get deleted.

> if Jim wants a blanket ban on all talk of P2P, then that's fine.

I think some discussion is healthy. However, when this subject comes up, it tends to attract comments that could harm JRiver's reputation or create legal problems for us.

If I have a choice between taking heat for hitting the delete key or getting sued, I'll choose the delete key.

zevele1 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 18, 2002, 07:28:53 am »

Doof

Time to go to calmer waters .Here a link with underwater photos

http://www.leni-riefenstahl.de/eng/photo/p_unter.html.

All the site is gorgious

zevele1 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 18, 2002, 07:36:56 am »

JimH

I agree with you.
My post was asking to keep a post with infos. And to use more the close post buton,leaving the info on the forum.

by the way at $350 a seat,they deserve it,don't they?[private message ..]

Doof · « **Reply #14 on:** September 18, 2002, 07:40:18 am »

Again, I'm just seeking clarification, here.

I agree 100% that we need to keep Interact free of illegal goings on. I'd like to see MJ emerge victorious as much as you do. As a heavy user and huge fan of JRiver and the Media Jukebox product, I have a vested interest in seeing my media player of choice continue. After all, if JRiver gets shut down or otherwise has to close up shop, then I'm stuck with MJ 9 alpha 4. And as great as it is, there's always something more to want.

So Jim, in your opinion, where would a thread about an incompatibility between BearShare and MJ stand?

King> I'm not questioning your decision in this matter. Before that thread, I would have closed any thread I saw dealing with P2P as well, for all of the reasons that Jim has stated. That one just got me thinking because it seemed to be more of an MJ support issue than a P2P discussion.

JimH · « **Reply #15 on:** September 18, 2002, 08:29:07 am »

If we knew it were a support problem, it should probably remain open. In this case, it wasn't clear. It was a close call.

Let's worry about the future tomorrow.

zevele1 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 18, 2002, 08:51:27 am »

Tomorrow,i am going to the country for few days.
It is the Succot Festival

It will help JRiver in 2 ways:

-a more sane Interact for few days
-I will test the "no-latin" cds to upload to YADB.

Look like life is really cool here.We take the most before the Irak strike ,because we may get ugly things from the air.....real danger of death is to come

KingSparta · « **Reply #17 on:** September 18, 2002, 09:01:21 am »

Tomorrow

Planted 2 Trees Today, It's Raining Now

I Hope To Plant More Later Or Tomorrow

Wife is Currently At WalMart

I Just Called her Because of your post that reminded me to see if she will pickup the new "Natalie Cole" CD If Aval.

1 I Haven't Got Anything Better To Do Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 4:07 Jazz Vocals 2002
2 Tell Me All About It Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 4:10 Jazz Vocals 2002
3 As A Woman Who Knows Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 4:14 Jazz Vocals 2002
4 It's Crazy Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 2:10 Jazz Vocals 2002
5 You're Mine You Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 4:03 Jazz Vocals 2002
6 So Many Stars Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 5:16 Jazz Vocals 2002
7 I Told You So Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 3:52 Jazz Vocals 2002
8 Soon Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 3:13 Jazz Vocals 2002
9 I'm Glad There Is You Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 5:16 Jazz Vocals 2002
10 Better Than Anything Natalie Cole With Diana Krall Natalie Cole 3:35 Jazz Vocals 2002
11 The Music That Makes Me Dance Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 4:09 Jazz Vocals 2002
12 Calling You Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 5:00 Jazz Vocals 2002
13 My Baby Just Cares For Me Natalie Cole Natalie Cole 4:26 Jazz Vocals 2002

KingSparta · « **Reply #18 on:** September 18, 2002, 11:46:17 am »

Just a Reminder:

The Series Premier For "Enterprise" Is On Tonight.

Yellow Submarine Charted At 02 In 1966

Listening to: 'Tell Me All About It' from 'Natalie Cole' by 'Natalie Cole' on Media Jukebox 10.0.056

Doof · « **Reply #19 on:** September 18, 2002, 11:53:09 am »

Enterprise! Bah!

Give me Farscape any day.

Except that they... canceled it!

Ok, whent he originiator of a thread posts this far off topic, it's officially a dead topic, right?

zevele1 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 18, 2002, 12:13:25 pm »

Doof
So far of topic, yes the topic is dead.
There is less and less 'far out of topics killing the topic' on interact. I miss it
Did you have a look at my link to underwater pictures? You may ask MouseMan to make you a track info from one of them?

Drinking a Tuborg dark lager

Doof · « **Reply #21 on:** September 18, 2002, 12:26:30 pm »

Just slipping this in and then I'll reclose the thread (sorry Jim).

zevele> Yeah, I did. Her photography is great! Thanks for the link. I think I will ask Mouseman to make me a template. Good idea!

Ok... I'm reclosing it now.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Serious Question About P2P Discussions In Interact (Read 3526 times)

Scronch

zevele1

Galley

zevele1

zevele1

zevele1

zevele1

zevele1

zevele1