Topic: Otto's Gone Schizo (Read 9207 times)

jgreen · « **on:** June 29, 2006, 03:22:57 pm »

Well, I know it's a watch folder, but Otto's the one watching it. Now, why does the interface for the WatchFolder (a very good interface) have to be different from the interface for manual import? (which is very good.) I think in the spirit of consistency and ease of use you ought to combine the two into one, since they are doing the same thing.

glynor · « **Reply #1 on:** June 29, 2006, 03:27:53 pm »

But I want to be able to set up one set of folders and have Otto watch them, and a different set of folders to run my imports manually... ?

Matt · « **Reply #2 on:** June 29, 2006, 04:02:31 pm »

They actually share the same folder configuration dialog.

Otto has a list of folders.

Manual picks one folder.

jgreen · « **Reply #3 on:** June 29, 2006, 04:10:06 pm »

Er, as I just noticed, manual import is gone completely. There is no tools/import media, just tools/add folder. So otto isn't schiz, he's gone and had a change. So while you can right click/import, you can no longer do a manual import through the menu, which I don't necessarily have a problem with, now that Otto's consistent again. Glynor, you might want to scream.

EDIT: yes Matt, I see that now. Looks good, IMO.

glynor · « **Reply #4 on:** June 30, 2006, 11:59:57 am »

Quote from: jgreen on June 29, 2006, 04:10:06 pm

Glynor, you might want to scream.

Yeah. I'm really not into that at all. I do NOT want to have the same set of folders automatically scanned in the background as the set that I run my manual import on. Actually, I'd want to just have a subset of all of the manual ones "watched".

This is for a very good reason. I have a folder called "New" (actually I have a bunch of them, but bear with me)... That's where I download most of my "new" files pre-tagging, and save them until they are all processed and collated. Then I use the Rename Files from Properties tool to move them. This process often involves Format Conversion. Many of the live shows I download come in FLAC or SHN format. Personally, my ears aren't good enough to tell the difference between a FLAC file and a LAME MP3 encoded using -V 1 --vbr-new, so I convert all my FLACs and SHNs over to MP3 before I move them to my main library (at M:/music).

I would like Otto to monitor "M:/music/" for any new files (in case I put stuff in there manually using EAC for example, which I know are already properly tagged), but not "N:/new". If I have it "Watch" the new folder, then it will re-import the FLACs or SHNs after I've converted them but before I've gotten around to tagging them. I like to hang onto the source FLAC files until I'm sure the MP3s are good and in the right place (and then I delete them). Another example is that I might download a bunch of single-use video files to my N:/new/ directory that I don't want to ever end up in MC because I'm going to watch them once and delete them (or add them to a different library).

So, I need to be able to manually run my search INCLUDING my "excludes" and large sets of different folders, just as it was in MC 11.1's "Import Media" tool and designate some of those folders as "watched" but others not.

That's how other applications do it, and it's really the only system I can see working well. Sure, I can manually initiate an import on a specific folder with this system, but how can I exclude folders and files (such as my Incomplete folder under N:/new/)? Like I mentioned here, I currently have 23 folders listed in my MC 11.1 "Import Media" dialog (because as I said, there isn't just one central "new" folder like in my example, there's a bunch of them for different media types on different machines and drives). I probably only want a subset of 4-5 of these to be "Watched", and be able to save the big list to run the manual import on the rest. Even if you come up with a way to exclude certain files, manually running the import on 13 folders one at a time (basically every day for me) is really not an option.

glynor · « **Reply #5 on:** June 30, 2006, 12:12:33 pm »

Another huge problem with this that I could see would be using Otto to watch folders on Network Drives. Even if you vastly improve the "thread separation" of the import process (so that the running background process doesn't impact the performance of using MC in other ways - which does seem to be the goal with v12), importing files over the network still involves transfering the files themselves over the network one at a time for analysis.... Which will impact network performance.

I certainly can't have MC deciding on it's own when it's going to bring my network to a crawl. Some of the files I use MC to manage are massive (particularly my source files for my video work -- 1 hour of DV-encoded video is about 12GB). On 11.1 scanning through a folder filled with 35 hours of new video we just recorded last week, stored on a network drive on the machine in our Auditorium, can take a VERY, VERY long time. As it is, I usually just wait until I'm about to go home (or won't be using the network for a long while) and then start the import.

This way means I basically just won't be able to use Otto at all, which is really quite a bummer! I didn't realize that the lovely new "Otto" interface (which I think is great BTW) meant you were going to remove the old Import Media under Tools!!

GHammer · « **Reply #6 on:** June 30, 2006, 01:37:46 pm »

As far as I can see, there is a toggle for "Watch this folder" when you do a manual add.

glynor · « **Reply #7 on:** June 30, 2006, 01:53:51 pm »

Right, but that would just add it to the "Otto List" which wouldn't help my problem...

Or was that not directed towards me?

jgreen · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2006, 06:07:08 pm »

The new Watch Folder (formerly known as otto) is really fast. I think it's a great improvement in speed and fuctionality, but why is the "check folder now" button buried so deep in options? "Add folder" is right there in tools, but wouldn't we want to check a folder more often than we add one?

scthom · « **Reply #9 on:** June 30, 2006, 06:21:04 pm »

I agree with Glynor -- I almost always do a manual import. And once it's in, why have an auto import? For me, the best scenario is manual import only. With as few clicks as possible, of course.

KingSparta · « **Reply #10 on:** June 30, 2006, 06:46:59 pm »

Quote

The new Watch Folder (formerly known as otto) is really fast.

it took mine about an hour, but i am not normal

glynor · « **Reply #11 on:** June 30, 2006, 07:17:26 pm »

Quote from: jgreen on June 30, 2006, 06:07:08 pm

The new Watch Folder (formerly known as otto) is really fast. I think it's a great improvement in speed and fuctionality

With network drives it is faster, but it still takes forever and brings my network speed to a crawl when it finds new media....

GHammer · « **Reply #12 on:** June 30, 2006, 11:44:24 pm »

Quote from: GHammer on June 30, 2006, 01:37:46 pm

As far as I can see, there is a toggle for "Watch this folder" when you do a manual add.

Quote from: glynor on June 30, 2006, 01:53:51 pm

Right, but that would just add it to the "Otto List" which wouldn't help my problem...

Or was that not directed towards me?

Well, if you do not check the box, you import but do not add the folder to Otto's list.
So, would that not be the same as the 11.x import?

glynor · « **Reply #13 on:** June 30, 2006, 11:57:24 pm »

One folder at a time and I can't use excludes. That's not really workable. As I said, I have a number of locations where media gets saved, on a variety of machines. I use MC to import it, catalog it, and re-distribute it (via Rename Files From Properties) to where it's supposed to "live" permanently.

I need to be able to use the Import Media function in MC 11, but choose a subset of those folders to watch. I'm really surprised that I'm the only one who cares about this frankly...

Marty3d · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2006, 02:13:34 am »

Quote from: glynor on June 30, 2006, 11:57:24 pm

I need to be able to use the Import Media function in MC 11, but choose a subset of those folders to watch. I'm really surprised that I'm the only one who cares about this frankly...

Could be that everybody's using different workflows. Me for instance. I always rip my music into one directory, clean it with proper filenames, cover art and tags. Then I run MP3Gain on it. THEN, I move the files to the proper music directory and import it. Same goes for video.

GHammer · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2006, 02:30:59 am »

I don't know. I just added a few folders and have different file types for each.

I setup a top level folder then dropped two subdirectories with their own trees into it.
Otto found and added the files in all.
D:\Working\MC Test Folder\Images\China\Wuxi\Mei Yuan\
I simply added D:\Working\MC Test Folder and set the file types.

I see an exclude under Options->Library->Add Folder->Browse
Gets entered like this:
Exclude: D:\Working\MC Test Folder\Images\China\Jade Factory\Package\

Yeah, if you have many working folders it might be a pain to setup first time out of the box.
But I really don't see where the current abilities are unworkable.

GHammer · « **Reply #16 on:** July 01, 2006, 02:34:13 am »

My workflow is similar.

RIP to a working directory NOT in my MC library.
Replaygain, tag, organize, convert to additional formats if needed.
Move tree to my audio directory which is in the library.
And, with Otto, I no longer have to go import manualy. Nor when I do a rare change on existing files.

Alex B · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2006, 05:49:31 am »

My usual workflow:

1. Rip to a separate rip folder. Settings etc: EAC secure, disc image file + cue, Monkey's Audio high compression.

For those who understand: I could use MC for ripping as well (its secure mode is great), but the single file mode does not detect pregaps so it would not make complete disc images. (Especially because the occasionally existing INDEX 00 before the first INDEX 01 is not included in the audio content either. The ripping engine just combines to one file what otherwise would be ripped to separate track files.)

2. Start MC's ripping function for checking if the info is available in YADB. If not, then load the info from CDplayer.ini and send to YADB. Cancel ripping.

3. Make APL files from the CUE file (for holding complete MC tagging).

4. Load the APLs and the disc image ape file to playing now

5. Finalize tagging and analyze the files with MC.

6. Convert the APL files to compressed track files in a high quality lossy format, which I believe to be transparent and useful for me. (This format can be MPC, MP3 or Ogg depending on various factors).

7. Remove the APL files from Playing Now and load the lossy versions in place. Re-analyze these files (lossy compression makes slight volume level changes). Right-click Import the files and use the "Rename files from properties" tool for placing them in my online media folders.

8. Archive the APE, CUE and APL files to my offline lossless archive.

- I simplified this a bit by leaving a few additional steps off. If the files are not from CD (e.g. if they are from Etree or own recordings) the procedure is similar except of course the ripping part.

So perhaps Otto is not exactly for me. However, I am sure it'll be welcomed.

BTW, the word schedule was mentioned in the MC forum. Any thoughts?

Alex B · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2006, 06:59:44 am »

What does etc mean in the "Ignore special files (folder.jpg, etc.)" option?

glynor · « **Reply #19 on:** July 01, 2006, 11:35:42 pm »

My problem isn't generally music files, for which I use a similar workflow. It's generally video and images that cause the problem, and the fact that they are all network drives. I would guess that I'm not the only one, once the beta program is opened up further... We shall see I suppose.

As is, its not a dealbreaker for me migrating to MC 12, it just means:

a) We need a better/easier way to manually initate Otto.
b) I can't use Otto on "auto" (which is no different than the current MC11 system, so no huge deal).

Marty3d · « **Reply #20 on:** July 02, 2006, 01:34:43 am »

One thing that has struck me is that the Otto dialog is so similar to the former Import dialog, now Library -> Add folder to library. Shouldn't these two actually be combined instead?

hit_ny · « **Reply #21 on:** July 06, 2006, 01:29:21 pm »

Quote from: scthom on June 30, 2006, 06:21:04 pm

I agree with Glynor -- I almost always do a manual import. And once it's in, why have an auto import? For me, the best scenario is manual import only. With as few clicks as possible, of course.

Always do manual import as well, i liked the options in the import dialog as it gave an indication what to expect also it seemed the relevant place.

Now the import options are buried inside the options dialog. I tried an import and was surprised to see it just imported with no dialog whatsoever. No familiar switch to the recently imported viewscheme either.

GHammer · « **Reply #22 on:** July 07, 2006, 07:41:35 am »

Hmmm, I see that the Menu selection name changed.
And there is now an option to watch the folder you are adding.

Yes, you can do it from Options as well.
But otherwise it is the same as the old import dialog, same things to select not select. Well, you get the added bonus of not importing folder.jpg files! Finally I can import images and not have to go delete useless ones.

I must be slow this week because I truly do not see the problem. A requested feature has been added. Another requested change (ignore folder.jpg) was added. You can uncheck any of these and have the same old import.

Myself? I like the new method, like Otto, and love the exclusion of folder.jpg.

Perhaps you all should try it, poke at the options, see how it actually works.
You know, like you're testing new stuff.

Alex B · « **Reply #23 on:** July 07, 2006, 08:25:02 am »

The manual start should be easier (currently: Tools > Options > Library > Check Folders Now...). At least a Toolbar button would be good to have.

Also, it is a bit complicated to quickly change the included and excluded folders. I find myself going back and forth between the main "Library" options category that shows the folder list and the "Add Folder... > Browse > Browse... / Exclude Folder..." windows. (Which are three steps away.)

Ideally these functions and the folder list should be available on a single options window.

A schedule option would be nice too.

Matt · « **Reply #24 on:** July 07, 2006, 08:30:08 am »

We recommend leaving "Enable watch folders" checked.

Then there's no need to ever manually use "Check Folders Now..."

Maybe the options dialog should be revised to make this more clear.

glynor · « **Reply #25 on:** July 07, 2006, 08:54:05 am »

Quote from: Matt on July 07, 2006, 08:30:08 am

We recommend leaving "Enable watch folders" checked.

Then there's no need to ever manually use "Check Folders Now..."

I tried it last night, just to see what would happen.

On my video editing machine (in the basement) I had 43 new hours of DV encoded (MOV wrapped) video. This worked out to about 540 GB of data. It was sitting on a Seagate 750GB drive in a nice USB2.0 external enclosure and connected to a Mac (the drive is shared using SAMBA on my network using Gigabit ethernet). I brought the drive home from work to use it as a test, but this is a very similar situation to how I use MC about once a week at work currently.

That's not to mention the other 10 hours or so of video my BeyondTV system had recorded on the "tivo drive", the newly converted XviD avi's that ended up in my regular "new" folder, and a smattering of FLACs and SHNs downloaded from etree.org. This stuff was all of lesser importance though, as the files are fairly small overall.

It took about 6.5 hours to finish importing, crashed 6 times (I'm assuming thumbnailing again), and slowed my network to a crawl for that entire period (except for immediately after the crashes until I restarted MC). This means that I can't use the auto import. And that's without using the work system where our photographers sometimes generate 2-3 hundred new 12.8 megapixel RAW+JPEG pictures in a single shoot. What part of this isn't clear?

If it's going to take that long, and transfer half a terrabyte across the network, I need to be able to control when it starts and ends (and it's important to see the "finished importing" report). I agree that Otto's a nice feature. It's not set up the way I'd prefer, but that's not a huge deal. I really just need to have access to the old standard import function (even if it just uses Otto's list of folders). A toolbar button and the automation commands to initiate the import, and an easy way to see when it's done and what was imported (and removed). A cancel button is also pretty essential.

One of the most important ways I use MC in my workflow is to consolidate all of my new media from a variety of locations before I add any tags to it, and then tag and edit them, and then move them to their "final" locations (project folders and archive areas). It seems like the workflow most of you describe is the opposite... You create and tag the files elsewhere, then move them into a folder where MC will "see" them, and then leave them there. To me, that's missing the real power of MC's organizational capabilities.

I realize that my examples are extreme, but I'm certainly not the only one who has a HTPC DVR drive on a network and might import 20-30 GB of MPEG-2 data in one fell swoop. I imagine if you're running 100Mbit ethernet, and you need to transfer that much data you'll need to be able to control how and when it does so.... Imagine "accidentally" leaving MC open and trying to place a Skype call? Or playing Unreal Tournament (which is a good example, I often leave MC open playing music while I play games)?

Doof · « **Reply #26 on:** July 07, 2006, 09:02:38 am »

Otto works great for me. But I guess I'm not doing anything weird.

I rip using MC's Secure Mode - rip to single file - APE High
Anything I download goes into a P2P - Incoming folder
I import pictures from my camera into an Import folder under My Pictures and the same for DV off of my DV camera.

Otto's set to watch all of these folders. I have a smartlist set up to show me any files that reside in any of my import folders, but only really need to check it if I'm doing a download and don't realize it's finished.

Actually, the only thing that would be cool to add to MC for me in this area, would be like some little indicator "LED" type thing in the status bar letting me know that Otto just added something to the library.

Doof · « **Reply #27 on:** July 07, 2006, 09:05:02 am »

What exactly is being transferred across the network during an import? It shouldn't be transferring the entire file, should it? Or does it have to just to read the tags and other stats from the file?

glynor · « **Reply #28 on:** July 07, 2006, 09:06:22 am »

Quote from: Doof on July 07, 2006, 09:05:02 am

What exactly is being transferred across the network during an import? It shouldn't be transferring the entire file, should it? Or does it have to just to read the tags and other stats from the file?

My guess would be that it does. It certainly seems to need to (based on my tests last night) at least for DV MOVs and MPEG-2 files!

I had a network monitor running, and it pegged out at near 40% of the 1 Gbit theoretical max for most of the time (which is basically as high as it goes). The importing machine also "dropped" a bunch of pings that I had running towards it from my Linux box -- which it never does normally.

glynor · « **Reply #29 on:** July 07, 2006, 09:10:21 am »

I should just say... It's not that I'm asking for anything new. I just want to be able to keep using it the way I've always used it.

hit_ny · « **Reply #30 on:** July 07, 2006, 09:11:18 am »

Quote from: glynor on July 07, 2006, 08:54:05 am

One of the most important ways I use MC in my workflow is to consolidate all of my new media from a variety of locations before I add any tags to it, and then tag and edit them, and then move them to their "final" locations (project folders and archive areas).

How is this different from..

Quote from: glynor on July 07, 2006, 08:54:05 am

It seems like the workflow most of you describe is the opposite... You create and tag the files elsewhere, then move them into a folder where MC will "see" them, and then leave them there. To me, that's missing the real power of MC's organizational capabilities.

Apart from when the import was performed..or is that what you mean.

You import first, then tag and move all within MC whereas we import only at the end.

glynor · « **Reply #31 on:** July 07, 2006, 09:19:34 am »

Exactly. That's a big difference because I can't consolidate all of my media onto one computer.

At home, the media is generally one one of four different machines:

1) My "main" PC: P2P downloads (mostly flacs and shns from etree and similar places) and my new personal pictures.
2) My video editing workstations: new video project files (usually final products in DV-encoded MOV, MP4, and MPEG-2+AIFF -- sometimes raw source footage too in DV-encoded MOVs)
3) My Linux server: this is my main data repository, its a RAID5 network share.
4) My HTPC (which is usually the one doing the importing): mostly new footage in MPEG-2 from BeyondTV, but this is also where I rip my new audio files.

hit_ny · « **Reply #32 on:** July 07, 2006, 10:11:39 am »

Ok now i understand what you mean, Otto will prolly be very helpful if it works the way you wanted.

I've always approached this from the pov that only what's complete goes into the library, that way i have an accurate count of what's in it without resorting to exclusion rules and would also have to make more use of the Honor parent option in viewschemes. MC works fastest when you give it direct instructions than exclusions & dependencies.

So once i've AA'd, listened, tagged, rated etc, all saved to MPL since i went tagless a few months back. Then it either gets imported into the library or deleted.

It's possible to import everything but did not see the benefit when all media can be contained, whether ready or not on one machine.

LonWar · « **Reply #33 on:** July 07, 2006, 10:22:10 am »

Quote from: Doof on July 07, 2006, 09:02:38 am

Otto works great for me. But I guess I'm not doing anything weird.

Actually, the only thing that would be cool to add to MC for me in this area, would be like some little indicator "LED" type thing in the status bar letting me know that Otto just added something to the library.

That would be cool.... maybe a report in the Action Window?

glynor · « **Reply #34 on:** July 07, 2006, 12:52:50 pm »

Quote from: hit_ny on July 07, 2006, 10:11:39 am

Ok now i understand what you mean, Otto will prolly be very helpful if it works the way you wanted.

It could be, but it's fine if it doesn't, as long as it's still easy to use it the way 11.0 and 11.1 allowed you to -- Where MC maintained a list of "include" and "exclude" folders so that I can just click "GO" and have it run the search on all of those "sites".

However, the way MC12 is currently set up, I'm basically forced to use Otto (unless I want to dig into the Options pane every time I want to import new media -- which isn't an option really). I can't though, for the reasons stated above...

I guess I'm confused by your method. What's the point of having the super-powerful tagging capabilities of MC if you only use it to manage files after they've been tagged? The reason I use MC is that it can manage files across a wide variety of locations, file types, and sources -- and allow me to collate and sort them quickly and easily (and then it lets me easily find and use them again later). Most importantly, I can see the "new" files all in one place and get a handle on them and get them to where they need to live.

It just seems like a regression of features. And, frankly, no other media management application that I've ever used works that way. Generally, you can do both the larger manual import (which is generally slow but thorough) and the auto import on a subset of those locations.

hit_ny · « **Reply #35 on:** July 07, 2006, 01:26:47 pm »

Quote from: glynor on July 07, 2006, 12:52:50 pm

I guess I'm confused by your method. What's the point of having the super-powerful tagging capabilities of MC if you only use it to manage files after they've been tagged?

Being able to add metadata (custom tags) and having quick access. Whether its stored in the file or not is a small detail. Getting custom views on the whole library, an area that can be further developed if there were graphical displays...

Only use MC with audio, not yet played with documents, photos or videos. It all seems so obvious with audio but not even sure myself what to expect of an app with other media.

..early days, let's see what surprises are in store

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Author Topic: Otto's Gone Schizo (Read 9207 times)