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[blewis]

Ok, while I realize this forum will be a bit biased in favor of MC, I find that forum users in general are pretty straight-forward about this stuff.  So I need your help.

I have a music only HTPC in my living room, currently running Windows MCE 2005.  It does get a little use for photos and home videos, but 95%+ of the use is as our home music player.  The computer is hooked up to a Yamaha receiver via optical out and I just use an LCD monitor and mouse (no TV).

I have been fairly happy with this solution, but I do have some issues that perhaps MC can help me solve.  First is performance.  Now that I have 500+ albums loaded, MCE is fairly slow.  The box is only a 1.8GHz CPU and 512MB RAM, but still...no TV, just music!  MCE has a reputation for being slow with music when you get large collections.  Will MC11 or 12 speed things up?

Playlist management inside of MCE sucks.  I have to drop out to Windows Media Player to create and manage playlists.  I would prefer to do it in a single interface.  Same with device management.  I have a Rio Carbon that I sync, but also have to drop out of MCE to manage it with WMP.  I like WMP's ability to down-convert the files to a lower bitrate to save space, since I rip everything into MCE as WMA loseless.  It looks like MC12 has the ability to downconvert, which looks promising. 

If moving away from WMA loseless is my best solution with MC, what should i convert to?  FLAC?  I want to stay loseless on the HTPC and only go for lower bitrates on my portable devices.

Also, I am thinking about an iPod.  I don't mind the Rio, but want something with more space.  I have previously stayed away from an iPod because I hate iTunes.  MC looks like it can handle a iPod pretty well, so this becomes a very interesting solution.  I buy CDs, so using iTMS is a non-issue for me.  Zune had promise, but it locks you into their music software too, so that makes it un-interesting to me.

Taking a look at the screenshots, I am wondering how spouse friendly MC is.  Windows MCE is nice because the interface is pretty basic and straight forward.  I think my wife can live with a little move complexity for a few more features (like playlist management), but things can't get too complicated.

Further down the line, I am interested in creating a DVD server and rip most of our DVDs so that they can be easily managed.  How well does MC do that?

So I guess I just need help understanding if MC is going to be enough of a better experience to merit messing with a fairly large collection of music.  I hesitate to just install the demo before having more questions answered, because I don't want to mess with my current setup too much until I know I am going to dive into MC.

Thanks all,

Bryan

[Mastiff]

Well, let's look at the speed first. I have 6500+ albums with all in all more than 80 000 tracks (I know it's still pathetic compared to King Sparta, though...), and with MC 11.1 I was a bit annoyed with a slowdown of 10 seconds or so when doing tagging operations. Except for that no slowdowns at all. With MC 12 that's down to maybe 5 seconds, so I don't complain. As for your computer I have my full library running on an old Duron 1200, and it works OK. The only slowdown is when jumping from a view with only a few tracks to a view with all tracks in the library. Mind you the music always has CPU priority, so it never skips. I was running an XP1800 on my carputer with the full library and NetRemote control (www.promixis.com), and that was never a problem.

I'm not much for portable players (I use my PDA Phone when I want to listen to stuff on the bus, which has happened exactly once in the last five years...), but MC has a lot of stuff for that I know.

And staying away from Zune is probably smart.  Plays for sure went to "doesn't play at all"...

Forget the complexity at once! MC has something called Theater View which is mostly browsing of the library with covers or without in a matter that I guess is similar to MCE.

As for DVD server I don't use MC for DVD playback (I need to use Zoom Player for my huge CRT projector because of advanced video processing and aspect ratios), but I'm pretty sure that MC can browse stuff like that.

As for messing with your setup, why not do a full image backup first? I always do before I change anything (especially drivers and media software), so I can go back. I believe there is free software that can do that. I would go to regular XP Pro instead of MCE, but that's just me.

[KingSparta]

Windows Media Player

Yuck

[InflatableMouse]

One of the more powerful things I love about MC is its tagging capabilities. I use it extensively.

I only play my music using MC connected to my receiver. I tried MCE again last week and dumped it after a few hours. Vista MediaCenter might be better for some but I think its just as bad.

Something MCE and WMP can't do though are gapless playback. If you use it solely for music you must have noticed how tracks with seamless transitions on the CD suddenly have this silence in between them? It annoys the hell out of me! MC comes to the rescue with gapless playback, or gapped at 0.1s

[hit_ny]

Best is download, try, then come back with specific questions.

MC's fully functional for 30 days.

MC's forte is audio, which i use mainly. Video & theater view are being actively worked on in 12 so let's see how it turns out.

Interesting you had probs with MCE with only 500 albums, given its other features, i find that number a tad low.

[glynor]

Just a few things I love about MC:

• Best-in-Class tagging support of multiple file types (audio, video, images, and more)
• Extremely flexible database allows you to browse and filter your media however you like.
• Custom view schemes can be created to conform to specific media types
• Good Podcast support, including Video Podcasting
• Flexible playback engine handles just about anything you throw at it.  Plugin architecture allows expansion for file types not supported.
• Bit-perfect playback with supported sound cards.
• Good video playback engine (DirectShow based).  MC12 has lots of improvements, and allows per-file-type adjustment of DirectShow graphs.
• Multiple Zone support for Audio and Video playback.
• MC12 has a detachable display that can be used with Zones to create very complex multimedia shows.  Great for D/V-Jing.
• Amazing search capabilities.  Best there is out there.  Searches can be saved into Auto Smartlists or as custom View Schemes (which can then be further filtered using panes or tree navigation).
• Flexible browsing methods, which are "saved" on a per-View Scheme basis (tiles work best for some media views, panes for others, and tree-with-child-items for others.
• Powerful list building (if you don't feel like using the searches to create auto-built lists, it's easy to build them yourself on the fly).
• Very fair licensing terms (you are allowed to install it on as many machines as you own with your single license).
• Wonderful support.  This forum is amazing, and if the users can't help you, it is actively monitored by the people who actually work on the code of MC.  If you find something that's broken, report it clearly and it will be fixed.  If you find something you don't like, if you make the case well enough, there's a good chance it'll be fixed.  For example, check out this thread: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=37135.0  That problem is less than a week old.  This is typical.  They watch and listen to their users.  (Okay -- somewhat bad example because the fix didn't work, but they're working on it immediately which is the point!)
• Somewhat related to the above... There's always something new to try out.  New builds are released (almost) every week day during a beta cycle.  You get to participate in the building of the software, so you can help to make it better!  It's certainly never boring!

As others said... There's a free trial.  Try it out and decide for yourself.

[modelmaker]

And you won't have to change/convert your lossless files, they'll play just fine in MC, (although MC supports virtually all audio file types - Matt at MC developed the Monkeys Audio (.ape) format).

[blewis]

Can MC rip into WMA loseless or will I need to pick a different format going forward for future ripped CDs?

One thing that I like for my wife is MCE asks about adding to the library when you stick in a CD, so it is easy for her to add music.  Can MC do this?  Either ask or just check if the CD is already in the library and if not, auto-rip it.

I will venture at the demo soon.  Thanks all.

Thanks,
Bryan

[Valisystem]

I also use JRiver Media Center with MCE in the living room. You'll have to minimize MCE in order to use MC, just as with WMP. For me, that means picking up the wireless keyboard - I haven't figured out a way to program the remote to do it.

When MC has the focus, the remote does all the basic functions - stop/pause/next/etc. MC has to be closed (not just minimized) when I return to MCE or a couple of functions on the remote don't work correctly in MCE.

Personally, I like using MCE for photos, videos, and TV, but its music handling is just awful. MC is so good that it's worth the extra effort to get it onscreen. Try it!

[Mastiff]

Valisystem, you can do that with Girder.

[modelmaker]

You can continue ripping with WMA lossless in MC if you wish, but there are also other options in MC.

You really should install the demo, a lot of your questions would be answered pretty quickly by taking MC out for a test run. Installing MC won't affect MCE.

MC does have the auto rip function, but cannot automatically look it up to see if it has already been ripped, but the way the library is set up, it is very easy to look up the artist or album, either directly in the artist/album tree or using the search function.

[Alex B]

Can MC rip into WMA loseless or will I need to pick a different format going forward for future ripped CDs?

Actually, MC has a very good WMA support, if not the best available. It can fully tag them (including user defined custom tags), analyze for Replay Gain and play WMA Lossless files gaplessly. Encoding in WMA format and conversions to other formats are fully supported.

WMP11 Losless support (for the new codec version) was recently added to MC12. I am not sure if MC11.1 can encode WMA Losless if WMP11 is installed.

[Osho]

Ok, while I realize this forum will be a bit biased in favor of MC, I find that forum users in general are pretty straight-forward about this stuff.  So I need your help.

Welcome to the forum.

I have a music only HTPC in my living room, currently running Windows MCE 2005.  It does get a little use for photos and home videos, but 95%+ of the use is as our home music player.  The computer is hooked up to a Yamaha receiver via optical out and I just use an LCD monitor and mouse (no TV).

I have been fairly happy with this solution, but I do have some issues that perhaps MC can help me solve.  First is performance.  Now that I have 500+ albums loaded, MCE is fairly slow.  The box is only a 1.8GHz CPU and 512MB RAM, but still...no TV, just music!  MCE has a reputation for being slow with music when you get large collections.  Will MC11 or 12 speed things up?

Definitely MC will speed things up. I have 1000 albums and MCE handles it just fine.

Playlist management inside of MCE sucks.  I have to drop out to Windows Media Player to create and manage playlists.  I would prefer to do it in a single interface.  Same with device management.  I have a Rio Carbon that I sync, but also have to drop out of MCE to manage it with WMP.  I like WMP's ability to down-convert the files to a lower bitrate to save space, since I rip everything into MCE as WMA loseless.  It looks like MC12 has the ability to downconvert, which looks promising. 

Playlist management in MC11 is very good. You can create, play, manage, transfer to your portable playlists all within the same interface.

If moving away from WMA loseless is my best solution with MC, what should i convert to?  FLAC?  I want to stay loseless on the HTPC and only go for lower bitrates on my portable devices.

Why would you move away from WMA loseless? MC11 supports WMA loseless very well. I am using FLAC myself but if you already have your data in WMA loseless there is no need to change it to another format.

Also, I am thinking about an iPod.  I don't mind the Rio, but want something with more space.  I have previously stayed away from an iPod because I hate iTunes.  MC looks like it can handle a iPod pretty well, so this becomes a very interesting solution.  I buy CDs, so using iTMS is a non-issue for me.  Zune had promise, but it locks you into their music software too, so that makes it un-interesting to me.

I have 2 iPods: one iPod nano for me and a iPod mini for my spouse. Both of them work great with MC11.

Taking a look at the screenshots, I am wondering how spouse friendly MC is.  Windows MCE is nice because the interface is pretty basic and straight forward.  I think my wife can live with a little move complexity for a few more features (like playlist management), but things can't get too complicated.

Theater view in MC11 is very good. It provides full screen interface which is very easy to use. I use it on my HDTV from 10 feet away with a remote control for my audio playback and it works great. My wife also likes to be able to change what is playing from 20 feet away with the ATI remote control.

Further down the line, I am interested in creating a DVD server and rip most of our DVDs so that they can be easily managed.  How well does MC do that?

Though I have not personally done that, I think MC11 can handle it. Someone else who have actually done it can probably chime in here?

So I guess I just need help understanding if MC is going to be enough of a better experience to merit messing with a fairly large collection of music.  I hesitate to just install the demo before having more questions answered, because I don't want to mess with my current setup too much until I know I am going to dive into MC.

Why not download a trial version and try it. Just scanning your directories won't screw up your music collection/tags etc. The first scan may be slow but after that you won't go back to MCE.

Osho

[blewis]

Thanks all for the help.  I went ahead an installed the MC12 beta. 

Its customization seems to be good for some things.  I like being able to control the schemes and how the music is presented.  However, I am really not fond of the Theater View as a whole.  Perhaps it is from just getting used to Windows MCE, but having the drop-downs for so many of the items is annoying.  The controls for instance.  I would like to see the playing controls (Play/Pause/Stop/FF/RR) right on the screen, instead of first having to click the Controls button.  The screen just isn't as elegant and for some reason my fonts look a bit tweaked, even after changing the size a few times to see what works best. 

I think the navigation could be improved a bit...it is nice having the breadcrumbs at the top of the screen, so why are they not clickable!  As a web developer, I would be shot for putting that sort of nav in without being able to click on it.  It would be really awesome if you could customize the view based on the scheme.  For example, when looking at albums, I want to see the album covers, but when looking at a list of artists or genres, I just want the list.  I realize I can toggle with the "Change View" button, but it would be nice to be able to set a preferred view for each type of list.

I use a keyboard, not a remote, and being able to jump using the keys is something nice that MCE does.  I want to be able to hit "M" and jump down the lists to the Ms.

I realize that some of this stuff is nit picky, but the devil is in the details.  I am going to keep playing for a little while to see if I can make it more to my liking.

Thanks again for suggestions,

Bryan

[glynor]

Thanks all for the help.  I went ahead an installed the MC12 beta. 

Its customization seems to be good for some things.  I like being able to control the schemes and how the music is presented.  However, I am really not fond of the Theater View as a whole.

I agree with most of your observations regarding Theater View.  Generally, I use MC in standard view on my HTPC for everything except video playback.

IMHO, Theater View is the one "weak spot" of MC, though MC12 has improved it somewhat.  So you know... there are other options that work well along with MC for control.  Many people here use NetRemote as a front end for controlling MC, and you can use it to build your own front end.  There are other options as well...

I'd really like to see Theater View develop into something much more like SageTV or Media Portal, but using MC's playback engine and the Standard View's prowess at organization.

Time will tell...

[Mastiff]

NetRemote would of course be your best bet. I have created a system for my car with that (in addition to having it on every one of my 10+ computers in the house), and it's so simple that my kids can choose music and movies without any problems for their screens in the back, and I'm able to control the music while driving without being too dangerous on the road... So if I can do that, you can easily make something that will crush MCE.

[glynor]

Willing to share? 

[bobp]

If you want to use ASIO to bypass KMIXER you can choose between MC and FOOBAR (fubar?)

If you do not like the hassle of Foobar, MC is the way to go.

[Mastiff]

glynor, I will do that when I get the article up. I don't have space to share anything on my website. But PM me your E-mail address, and I can mail you the CCF. You'll have to remove a lot of stuff you won't use, though. But that's good practice in using NetRemote Designer!

[glynor]

PM's were being used for Spam so it's disabled on Interact now.  A good address to use is my user name here at hotmail.  I'm sure you can figure out the rest.   

[hit_ny]

PM's were being used for Spam so it's disabled on Interact now. 

heh, so that's why they turned it off, bit drastic tho. I did not receive any spam.

Many boards have a policy where you need to have x posts before you can PM anyone.

[Mastiff]

I dind't get any spam either. But glynor, if you haven't gotten an E-mail now, somebody at hotmail will be confused...

[glynor]

Got it.  Thanks!   

[KingSparta]

There Maybe Other Reasons Not Disclosed.

I know I keep deleting Spam In the Forums I Have Access To Delete Messages From Normally 1 Or 2 A Day.

Today I Deleted 2 Spam Messages In The MC11 Forum.

On A Lighter Note Last Week I Found IESpell A Spelling Plug-In For Correcting your Spelling Prior To Posting.

It Is Faster Than Google Spell.

IeSpell Plug-In For IE7 And It Is Also Free.

[hit_ny]

Spam in the forums is diferent to spam via PM which what i thought glynor was referring to.

[Mastiff]

King, does that plug-in also correct wrong use of capital letters?

[KingSparta]

King, does that plug-in also correct wrong use of capital letters?

It Is Only Wrong If You Believe It To Be So, I Believe It Is Correct So It Is So.

[hit_ny]

lol, everything in title case

...isn't that more work ?

[KingSparta]

...isn't that more work ?

Yes, But Since I Have Been Doing It For 50+ Years It Is Normal For Me, And Actually Putting Things In Proper Case Would Slow Things Down.

It Is Like, How You Say, Throwing\Putting A Wrench In A Monkey.

[hit_ny]

50+ years 

hmmm...and you're not winding us up ?

i've noticed this happen when one spends more time reading API libraries than is healthy.

Now that i think of it  i bet you were instrumental in getting title case put into Clean File properties way back when. I've tagged everything like that, not sure if its the correct way to do things, but think its easier to read in short bursts.

...that i never even noticed you post like this until the old hound pointed it out.

[KingSparta]

i bet you were instrumental in getting title case put into Clean File properties way back when.

Yep It Has Been Many Years Now.

My Whole Library Is Title Case.

Most CD's Titles & Song Names Are Title Case, Or UpperCase (I Looked).

[Mastiff]

The English titled part of my library is in title case, because that's the correct method for English song, book and movie titles in Norway. So I guess I owe you... I've always wondered why you were writing in title case, but should I understand this to mean that it's because you are a programmer?

[KingSparta]

but should I understand this to mean that it's because you are a programmer?

programmer?, Me?

No, Just Mentally Handicapped At Times

I Just Play Around With It, It Helps Sharpen The Mind, Since I Am Growing Older, And Older It Is Just A Matter Of Time Before It Goes.

The Sad Thing About It Is I Know I Will Lose My Thoughts Since It Runs In The Family. My Dad Worked On IBM Computers Back In The 50's And 60's For The Government. They Were Used To Track Incoming Aircraft (Cold War Stuff). And He Was Considered One Of The Best Techs At That Time. In The Mornings He Is Ok, By Lunch He Just Wonders Around Wondering Where He Is.

A&E Did A Special A Few Years Ago, And He Helped Them With Some Vintage Documents, And 8MM Video He Took Back In The Late 50's And 60's Of The Texas Towers. It Was In The Ocean 200 Miles Off The Coast Tracking Enemy Aircraft.

I Admire Him, And What He Has Done In His Life, He Was My Hero When I Was Growing Up, He Is Like 76 Now