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Author Topic: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP  (Read 5534 times)

rjm

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MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« on: November 15, 2006, 04:46:26 pm »

I am experimenting with the Nero Digital AVC format (I believe it is an implementation of the H264 standard).

I encoded a VOB to Nero Digital AVC (Cinema format) and it plays perfectly with very good quality in Windows Media Player 11. Same file in MC12 plays jerky with pixelated image.

I tried fiddling with the MC DirectShow filter settings but don't know what I am doing and could not find a way to improve the MC results.

Any suggestions?
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2006, 05:10:21 pm »

Please try these ideas:

1. Try selecting a different video decoder.

Options -> Playback -> DirectShow Playback Settings ...

Select file type, click Select Filters, select one decoder filter from the list on the right.

2. Try uncheck/check "Use Video Mixing renderer".
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2006, 05:18:35 pm »

The answer is almost certainly in the DirectShow Playback settings.  Different playback filters do better or worse jobs playing back AVC encoded media.  Nero's implementation of MPEG-4 AVC is very good.  I believe MC uses Quicktime as the default engine for MP4 playback though, and that engine (while it rarely fails) does not give good quality in AVC encoded media (Apple's h264 codec doesn't support the full MPEG-4 AVC spec).

Make sure to check the box next to MP4 in the DirectShow Playback settings, and then play around with the filters until you find a combination that works.

For me, CCCP and using Haali+FFDSHOW works very well.  Some people have trouble with Haali and specific media and would rather use MP4Splitter, which is also available.
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2006, 07:14:07 pm »

Thanks to both of you for the suggestions.

1) Use Video Mixing Renderer seems to have no effect.

2) I did some experimenting with DirectShow Filters but could not find a combination that even came close to the quality I get with stock WMP.

I have 31 choices under Source Filters and 201 choices under Other Filters so it is a little hard to try every combination. :)

I did try the obvious combinations....

Every codec with the word Nero in it.
Every codec with the words Nero AVC in it.
Microsoft MPEG-4 Video Decompressor.

I also checked the file properties reported by WMP and it indicates that it uses Nero Audio Decoder 2 and Nero Video Decoder. When I selected this combination in MC it did not help.

I do not understand the difference between a Source Filter and an Other Filter. It was not clear which Source Filter I should select. Perhaps this is my problem.

I also tried the option "Use Windows Media Player engine for video playback when possible" to no avail.

Any further suggestions would be appreciated.
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2006, 08:05:46 pm »

Source filters do not matter much. In most cases you can let DirectShow to select it for you. The most important filters would be decoders, which you select from "Other filters" group.

After selecting filters, run MC and make sure the filters you selected are actually being used. Right-click in the video window and choose "DirectShow Filters" to see what are in use. Note that if a selected file is not used, it ends up near on top of the list, while the filter that DirectShow loads to replace your selection is in the middle of the list.
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2006, 08:55:52 pm »

Thanks Yaobing

We might be getting warm...

In DirectShow options I have nothing selected for Source Filters and Nero Video Decoder selected for Other Filter.

I play video, right click on image and do not see "DirectShow Filters". I do see "Set Display" and it shows Quicktime as the one and only selected option.

glynor above suggested a problem with Quicktime and MP4.

I then went back to DirectShow options to see if I could figure out how to turn off Quicktime. No luck.

Further advice appreciated.
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2006, 09:05:02 pm »

Quicktime is the fallback and it takes over when other filters fail (so the Nero one is failing for some reason).  This is assuming you have MP4 checked in the DirectShow Playback Options dialog (before you get in to play with the individual filters).

Nero's playback filter really should work.  I don't have any Nero Digital files to play with (I suppose I could make one, but that'll take a while)...

Do you have FFDSHOW as an option?  I use FFDSHOW and it's MPEG-4 decoding is very good (at least with current builds).

If you don't have it, you can download it easily and install it, either as part of the CCCP (the MKV playback pack basically) or by itself.  Do a search for my name and CCCP and you'll find all kinds of info about it.  If all you want to do is fix this issue, I might just install FFDSHOW on it's own and install MP4Splitter and be done with it (though if you have other codec problems, CCCP is very good and I use it on all my systems with only a few extras).

Another option is to use G-Spot to try to render the file with a bunch of different filters and then pick the chain that works using MC.

If you'd rather just get the Nero filters working right, I'm sure we can walk you through it (I might just make a test Nero file tomorrow).
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2006, 09:11:58 pm »

Options -> Playback -> DirectShow Playback Settings...

1. On the right hand side of the window is a list of file types that are played in DirectShow. Make sure the checkbox next to mp4 is checked.

2. Now make sure correct filters are selected - by selecting the file type in the list, then click "Select Filters" button.

Once step 1 is done, and needed filters are present on your computer, even if you do not make any filter selections (step 2), MC will attempt to play mp4 in DirectShow. However, if for any reason DirectShow graph-building fails, MC reverts back to using Quicktime.

If you have done steps 1 and maybe 2, but still get Quicktime, you need to check whether you have all needed filters.

You should have the following:

1. In Source Filter group, either "Haali Media Source" or "MP4 Source".

2. In "Other filters" group,  "Haali Media Splitter" or "MP4 Splitter".

If you do not have any of these, you should install them (either CCCP pack, or standalone MP4Splitter).

You do not need to actually select these, as I mentioned before. But if you try selecting them, you should only select either a source filter or a splitter filter from the above, but not both. If you select a splitter filter, you can select "File Source (Async.)" as source filter.

3. In the "Other Filters" group, select a decoder filter, for example, Nero Video decoder, or FFDShow MPEG4 Video decoder.
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2006, 09:20:10 pm »

The filter graph you should get is

                                    Haali Media Splitter
File Source (Async.) ->        or                      -> Decoders -> Renderers
                                     MP4 Splitter


OR

Haali Media Source
     or                           -> Decoders -> Renderers.
MP4 Source
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2006, 11:18:36 pm »

glynor,

thanks, I have read threads on CCCP, and prefer to try to get my Nero filter to work.

Yaobing,

Quote
1. On the right hand side of the window is a list of file types that are played in DirectShow. Make sure the checkbox next to mp4 is checked.

confirmed

Quote
2. Now make sure correct filters are selected - by selecting the file type in the list, then click "Select Filters" button.

I have selected "Nero Video Decoder" (same filter WMP properties says it is using)

Quote
You should have the following:

1. In Source Filter group, either "Haali Media Source" or "MP4 Source".

2. In "Other filters" group,  "Haali Media Splitter" or "MP4 Splitter".

I have neither in either.

I downloaded and installed Haali Media Splitter. Confirmed Haali Media Spliiter available in both Source and Other FIlters but did not select either.

MC now crashes every time I try to play the file. WMP now crashes every time I try to play the file.

Uninstalled Haali Media Splitter.

WMP and MC no longer crash. WMP continues to play file beautifully. MC plays jerky with poor quality video.

Based on quick scan of Doom9, Haali seemed better choice than MP4 Splitter, so I am not going to risk any more damage to my system by trying MP4 Splitter.

WMP works, while hiding all the complexity of DirectShow. MC should strive for this in the future.

Please don't misunderstand me, this is a minor problem in the grand scheme of things and I love your product!

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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2006, 09:08:13 am »


Based on quick scan of Doom9, Haali seemed better choice than MP4 Splitter, so I am not going to risk any more damage to my system by trying MP4 Splitter.


My experience is the opposite. I have had better luck with MP4 splitter.

Did you install the latest version of Haali? Sometimes the latest is not necessarily the best, but mostly it is. One big problem with these free filters (MP4 splitter or Haali splitter, or any other) is that there are so many different versions floating around. If you happen to grab a bad build from a wrong site, your experience is ruined.

I have had no problem at all with MP4 splitter. There is no risk of damaging your system, as it is just one single file that gets registered in your system. If you do not like it, you can unregister it. It does not replace any other files on your system.

Quote
WMP works, while hiding all the complexity of DirectShow. MC should strive for this in the future.

Please don't misunderstand me, this is a minor problem in the grand scheme of things and I love your product!

Flexibility is a strength. You could check "Use Windows Media Player engine for video playback when possible" on the top-right corner of configuration. With that you lose all the video playback goodies we recently added, such as zooming.
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2006, 11:25:14 am »

Yaobing,

Got a problem here and need your help to recover.

Quote
Did you install the latest version of Haali? Sometimes the latest is not necessarily the best, but mostly it is. One big problem with these free filters (MP4 splitter or Haali splitter, or any other) is that there are so many different versions floating around. If you happen to grab a bad build from a wrong site, your experience is ruined.

Yes, I believe so. I got Haali from it's home site http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/

Quote
I have had no problem at all with MP4 splitter. There is no risk of damaging your system, as it is just one single file that gets registered in your system. If you do not like it, you can unregister it. It does not replace any other files on your system.

I downloaded MP4Splitter.ax 1.0.0.3 from SourceForge.net, copied it to c:\windows\system32\ and ran regsvr32 "c:\windows\system32\MP4Splitter.ax"

Both WMP and MC now crash everytime I play the MP4 file.

I then uninstalled MP4Splitter by running regsvr32 /u "c:\windows\system32\MP4Splitter.ax" (reported successful uninstall). I then deleted c:\windows\system32\MP4Splitter.ax

Now the bad news...

Both WMP and MC still crash when playing mp4.

Tried rebooting. Both WMP and MC still crash.

Searched registry for MP4Splitter, all references are gone.
Searched C: drive for MP4Splitter.ax, all gone.

You said MP4Splitter would do no damage. What should I do?

P.S.

Interesting side observation. Other players like Quicktime and Nero Showtime play the same file ok. Only MC and WMP are crashing.




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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2006, 11:57:54 am »

There must be something on that system that is seriously mucking up DirectShow playback.  Neither Haali nor certainly MP4Splitter should be causing anything like that.  If you unregistered MP4Splitter then it really can't be causing it.

What other codecs and filters do you have installed on that thing?  Can you provide a full list?

Anything like old builds of DirectVobSub or any codec packs or anything?
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2006, 12:12:32 pm »

Yaobing,

Got a problem here and need your help to recover.

Yes, I believe so. I got Haali from it's home site http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/

I downloaded MP4Splitter.ax 1.0.0.3 from SourceForge.net, copied it to c:\windows\system32\ and ran regsvr32 "c:\windows\system32\MP4Splitter.ax"

Both WMP and MC now crash everytime I play the MP4 file.

I then uninstalled MP4Splitter by running regsvr32 /u "c:\windows\system32\MP4Splitter.ax" (reported successful uninstall). I then deleted c:\windows\system32\MP4Splitter.ax

Now the bad news...

Both WMP and MC still crash when playing mp4.

Tried rebooting. Both WMP and MC still crash.

Searched registry for MP4Splitter, all references are gone.
Searched C: drive for MP4Splitter.ax, all gone.

You said MP4Splitter would do no damage. What should I do?

P.S.

Interesting side observation. Other players like Quicktime and Nero Showtime play the same file ok. Only MC and WMP are crashing.

Sorry for the troubles. I still believe a COM file would not cause damage, unless the author purposefully coded it to cause damage. Registering the file just creates a few registry entries so DirectShow is aware of the file.

I downloaded MP4Splitter 1.0.0.3 from http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=82303&package_id=170665

It works fine on my machine. The only oddities are:

1. The download is named mp4splitter_20050310.7z , as if it is an old file.

2. The unpacked files have file version 1.0.0.2, instead of 1.0.0.3.

By the way, you do not need to put the file in System32 folder. Any folder will do. I do not like manually adding or deleting files in that folder.

Will system restore work?

If you are still willing to try, you can try the other two earlier builds of MP4Splitter.

Also try FFDShow instead of the Nero decoder.
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2006, 01:12:21 pm »

Unfortunatley I do not use system restore because I do not trust it. I prefer to backup my system with Norton Ghost from time to time.

I fixed the problem after much trial and error. Following are details that may help you diagnose what is going on.

I reinstalled MC114. MC still crashes on MP4 playback.

I unstalled WMP 11 which restored WMP 10. WMP still crashes on MP4 playback.

I reinstalled WMP 11. WMP still crashes on MP4 playback.

I reinstalled (repair option) Nero 7.

WMP now plays MP4 perfectly.

MC still crashes on MP4 playback.

I deselected DirectShow MP4 Other Filter "Nero Video Decoder" and MC no longer crashes but video quality is bad as before.

I reselected DirectShow MP4 Other Filter "Nero Video Decoder" and MC still ok.

So I am basically back to where I started.

It is beyond me how installing and uninstalling a single file "MP4Splitter.ax" can cause this much trouble.

And no I am not going to try another version of MP4Splitter. :)
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2006, 01:14:19 pm »

And no I am not going to try another version of MP4Splitter. :)

Can't say I blame you there!
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2006, 01:21:06 pm »

Do you have a small example file you can post which would result in the crash or poor quality?  I'm wondering if it has something to do with the specific Nero 7 encode.  I did find this:

Crash in BS Player with Nero 7 MP4 File
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2006, 01:32:21 pm »

Since neither MP4 Splitter nor Haali splitter is installed, mp4 files are likely only played in Quicktime. That is probably the reason of poor quality.

I think Nero decoder played larger role of causing the crash than anything else. Here is my guess: Nero decoder does not know how to deal with MP4 decoder (nor can it play well with Haali decoder), it got confused somehow, and changed its internal setting. Subsequently it crashes everytime it is loaded.

This is how MC deal with playback of mp4:

If the checkbox next to mp4 is not checked, MC goes directly to Quicktime. If the checkbox is checked, MC tries to build a graph. If that fails, it falls back to Quicktime. Therefore, regardless whether you check "Use Window Media Player engine ...", you will be using Quicktime unless MC can build a DirectShow graph. You must therefore have a splitter (Haali or MP4, there maybe others) in order to avoid the poor quality Quicktime playback.
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2006, 01:48:33 pm »

Do you have Nero Splitter in the "Other filters" list?  If there is one, does it work if you select both "Nero Splitter" and "Nero Video Decoder"?
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2006, 02:10:20 pm »

Yes.

I tried the following combinations:

Source                               Other                                                               Result

none                                  Nero MP4 Splitter + Nero Video Decoder    poor quality
none                                  Nero MP4 Splitter                                        poor quality
none                                  Nero Splitter                                                poor quality
none                                  Nero Splitter + Nero Video Decoder             poor quality
Nero File Source (async)    Nero MP4 Splitter                                         crash
Nero File Source                Nero MP4 Splitter + Nero Video Decoder      poor quality
Nero File Source                Nero Splitter + Nero Video Decoder      poor quality
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2006, 02:13:48 pm »

There should be both Nero File Source / Splitter and Nero Digital Parser under the Source Filters... I don't know which one is right.
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2006, 02:26:09 pm »

fixed typo above
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2006, 04:06:53 pm »

Yes.

I tried the following combinations:

Source                               Other                                                               Result

none                                  Nero MP4 Splitter + Nero Video Decoder    poor quality
none                                  Nero MP4 Splitter                                        poor quality
none                                  Nero Splitter                                                poor quality
none                                  Nero Splitter + Nero Video Decoder             poor quality
Nero File Source (async)    Nero MP4 Splitter                                         crash
Nero File Source                Nero MP4 Splitter + Nero Video Decoder      poor quality
Nero File Source                Nero Splitter + Nero Video Decoder      poor quality


Have you confirmed that DirectShow actually successfully built graphs for these combinations (except the case where it crashed)?

In other words, you are actually playing in DirectShow engine with the poor results?
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2006, 06:43:36 pm »

If you asking, when I right click on the playing image do I see DirectShow, the answer is no, I only see Quicktime.

Please advise if there is another way for me to determine the DirectShow graph.
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2006, 08:41:15 am »

So you still can only get it to play in Quicktime. DirectShow graph-building still fails.

There must be something special in Nero filters that prevents normal graph building.
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2006, 11:27:53 am »

Yes, suspect you are right.

Nero is on a heck of a lot of computers in the world. Would be great if you could figure out how to make it work some day.

Thanks for your help.
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2006, 12:20:09 pm »

Do you use G-Spot? Would you be willing to venture into it if you are not already using it?

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=37062.msg253616#msg253616
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2006, 12:55:09 pm »

Nero is on a heck of a lot of computers in the world. Would be great if you could figure out how to make it work some day.

I have Nero on all of my computers and the Nero Digital splitters/filters work just fine with MC and Media Player Classic.  Something is weird about your system!
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2006, 01:43:00 pm »

I installed GSpot 2.60 b05.

I created a few Nero Digital and Nero Digital AVC mp4s using Nero Recode from VOBs and DV clips.

In all cases, when I inspect the mp4s with GSpot, it reports in the Container section: File Type: Unknown and Mime Type: Unknown.

So if GSpot is unable to figure out what graph to use, it stands to reason MC will not be able to either.

On other hand, WMP seems to know what to do.

In other thread you pointed me to, you reported Nero graphs were working on your system. I also noticed you are using Nero version 6. I am running the latest Nero version 7.5.7.0. A lot changed between Nero 6 and Nero 7.

Would you consider updating your Nero to see if you can reproduce what I am seeing?
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2006, 03:37:47 pm »

Unfortunately, Nero 7 isn't free.  I had tried a version of Nero7 on one of my other machines previously and the Nero Digital splitters and filters did work, but that was before Nero 7.5 (I didn't realize they were up that far).

Perhaps they broke something in the newer versions...
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2006, 02:45:09 am »

Glynor,

I am getting closer. I installed FFDShow V20051129 and MC now plays my Nero Digital AVC with very good quality. Should have followed your advice at the start.

A couple oddities:

1) I cannot scroll the video forward in MC. Yet in another viewing application (which also was fixed by FFDShow) I can scroll the video.

2) GSpot is still not recognizing the contents of the AVC file so I can't tell what filters are being used by the system.

Any suggestions?

Rob
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2006, 08:06:35 am »

1) I cannot scroll the video forward in MC. Yet in another viewing application (which also was fixed by FFDShow) I can scroll the video.

Do you mean fast-forward?

Quote
2) GSpot is still not recognizing the contents of the AVC file so I can't tell what filters are being used by the system.

You can see what filters are being used in MC while video is being played. Right-click the video window and select "DirectShow Filters".
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2006, 08:49:29 am »

I installed FFDShow V20051129 and MC now plays my Nero Digital AVC with very good quality. Should have followed your advice at the start.

A couple of things...

First, I've had problems with MC12's thumbnailing routine and that particular build of FFDSHOW.  I'd get hard-locks when building thumbs (either manually or through the auto-building routine) and very poor system performance while they were building.  This was a long while ago in the beta process and a lot could have changed in MC since then.  However, if you have problems like this, you might want to update to a newer (or older or different) build.  Milan Cutka (FFDSHOW's primary developer) isn't releasing "official" builds (alpha or otherwise) anymore for some reason, but you can get builds from Celtic Druid's page: http://celticdruid.no-ip.com/xvid/

Or from the x264 build page: http://x264.nl/

The newest builds aren't always the best though.  I've personally been having a lot of luck with the build included in CCCP, which is a customized version of the 2005-04-30 build.  There's a good page on CCCP's Wiki that describes exactly what it installs and why:  http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=Advanced_FAQ

Of course, YMMV, so I'd probably keep using what's working for you unless you have trouble.  The old, if it ain't broke addage...

As far as G-Spot... I'm somewhat surprised, but I'm not positive that it can handle AVC MP4 files (I'm assuming that you're using the MP4 wrapper for the files).  You are using the B05 build, right?  I'll test it out later -- though mine would be a x264 MP4 file so my results might be different.  When you hit the button 1 for the MS renderer, does it give an error message?

Yaobing's suggestion will tell you what filters are being used though, and when FFDSHOW is running you should get a tray icon (one for the Audio filter and one for the Video filter).
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2006, 01:04:28 am »

Yaobing,

Quote
Do you mean fast-forward?

I mean when I grab the slider bar to move to a different position in the video it always snaps back to the start.

Quote
You can see what filters are being used in MC while video is being played. Right-click the video window and select "DirectShow Filters".

I see the following:
Default DirectSound Device
VideoMixingRenderer9
ffdshow MPEG-4 Video Decoder
ffdshow Audio Decoder

Recall that I am playing Nero Digital AVC. Should I be concerned that MC is not using the Nero Video Decoder as I specified in the MP4 DirectShow Other Filter setting?

Glynor,

Thanks for the tip. I will try a different build of ffdshow.
Yes I am using B05 GSpot.
Yes I am using an MP4 wrapper.

I am going to do some encoding with the open source 264 codec and compare to Nero AVC.

I did some reading on Doom9 last night and it looks like AVC/264 will replace DivX/XviD as the compression format of choice within 12 months. I can see why. On my first AVC attempt with no tweaking of settings I am getting better results than I get with DivX/XviD after 50+ hours of experimenting and tweaking filters and parameters.

There do not seem to be a lot of people with the same video need/application that I have. My main objective is to edit home DV into clips and compress for integration and viewing with my photo collection. If anyone monitoring this thread is also interested in DV compression (which has a whole unique set of characteristics from MPEG-2 compression that most people do) please reply and we can start another thread to compare notes.
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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2006, 07:12:48 am »

Oh, I use DV every day for work.... Just not home movies!   ;D

I have 3 Canon XL2 cameras and quite a few other miscellaneous DV devices (2 Canopus Analog<->Digital converters and whatnot).  I do most of my editing in Final Cut Pro and compression in Apple Compressor (which is actually a pretty good compressor application for what it does).  At my office we've standardized on Quicktime media (MPEG-4 ASP specifically) for our digital video and streaming applications, for a variety of reasons but mainly because we have a lot of Mac users there.

It's really too bad that Apple decided not to implement all of Main and High AVC profiles in Quicktime 7's H264 codec, because I'd probably switch to that eventually if it was more compliant.

I just use XviD and x264 for home fun stuff, which is mostly MPEG-2 based!
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2006, 09:06:35 am »

Recall that I am playing Nero Digital AVC. Should I be concerned that MC is not using the Nero Video Decoder as I specified in the MP4 DirectShow Other Filter setting?

No.  The reason that it's using FFDSHOW instead of Nero's filters is that the Nero filters were failing.  Before, when Nero's filters failed to render, MC was "failing over" to Quicktime (which isn't very good quality as you can see).  Now instead, it's failing over to FFDSHOW which is vastly superior.

Generally, FFDSHOW should be equivalent in quality to Nero's filters (or at least as good as my eyes can see when compared to Nero 6 or Nero 7.0's filters -- as we discussed I haven't tried Nero 7.5).

I am going to do some encoding with the open source 264 codec and compare to Nero AVC.

I highly recommend AutoMKV.  It's not quite as flexible as MeGUI, but it's a LOT simpler to use and the results are very good.  You can find the latest build of AutoMKV here on the Doom9 forums.

The only thing I'd really like to see them add is support for some more input formats (for example Quicktime DV Stream files).  It's really MPEG conversion focused right now!  (Actually, I didn't realize it before, but it works just fine with DV encoded AVI files.  I wonder if he could add support for Quicktime's DV stream files...)
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Yaobing

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2006, 09:11:59 am »

I mean when I grab the slider bar to move to a different position in the video it always snaps back to the start.
I see. You meant "seeking".
You are not able to do it because DirectShow (or one of the filters involved) reports that the file is Not Seekable. I can not explain why it works in another application (which application is that?).
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2006, 09:49:23 am »

Quote
I see. You meant "seeking".
You are not able to do it because DirectShow (or one of the filters involved) reports that the file is Not Seekable. I can not explain why it works in another application (which application is that?).

Seeking on the same file works correctly in Windows Media Player 11, Cerious ThumbsPlus 7 (which I use for organizing my photos and video clips), Nero ShowTime, QuickTime (although quality is poor as previously discussed), and InterVideo WinDVD (although quality is poor, looks like it is using the QuickTime filter). MC is the only player I have that does not seek.
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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2006, 03:12:31 pm »

I just finished some testing of Nero Recode 2 (v2.2.6.17) verses AutoMKV (v0.51) verses AutoGK (v2.37 beta) using a DV-encoded source file.

The source file was captured using BTV Pro on a Mac via BTV's direct DV stream capture function.  The incoming video was sourced from a Canopus ADVC-500 Analog - Digital Converter box connected to a Canon XL1 video camera via S-Video.  I wasn't really evaluating audio quality (my ears aren't good enough anyway) though I did include the audio track in the encode.  It came from some ceiling microphones run through a mixer and then into the Canopus encoder.

In order to use this source with AutoMKV and AutoGK I had to first convert it to an AVI file, which I did using MPEG Streamclip (what a fantastic program that is and now it's available for Windows too).  Nero Recode was able to use the DV file directly, but to ensure that I was comparing apples-to-apples I used the DV AVI file for all of the conversions.  (I did ask the developer of AutoMKV to see if he can support the DV files directly and he's gonna see what he can do.)

The results were interesting!  I'd never really delved into Nero Recode for more than a cursory exam.  It certainly produced very high-quality results when using the AVC codec.  Here's some brief observations:

  • Source File:


Details:
Video: Apple DV, 720 x 480 (640 x 480), Millions of colors, 29.97 FPS
Audio: Stereo, 48000 kHz, PCM, 1536 kbps
Duration: 00:00:03.637 (3+ seconds) - 109 frames
Progressive source

Container:
File Type: AVI
Video: 12.4 MB
Audio: 681 KB

  • The process in Nero was very user friendly, but I did find it somewhat difficult to find the more advanced options (such as configuring resizing support, profile and codec selection, and more advanced settings).  These seemed to be spread out into different places and not very well explained, almost hidden from you (like they didn't want you to find them).
  • AutoMKV offers plenty of options while still keeping it simple.  However, the interface is certainly not as "pretty" for a novice video encoding user.  There are some areas of the interface that are downright scary (though these don't need to be touched).  It is quite a bit more flexible, and allows a lot more finely tuned configuration (selecting from a wide range of different filters for example) but the default options aren't really very good and nothing is very well explained.  It does work quite well though and the interface is clean and clear and very simple to use (assuming you know what the different choices do).
  • AutoGK is certainly the easiest of the three to use and configure.  It also doesn't give very easy access to many configuration options at all. It does still allow access to some advanced options, but only through a "secret hotkey press" (which I don't like, I have to search online for it every time I need to use it).  I understand that it was part of the design goal to keep it extremely simple, but a simple "advanced options" button under the regular options dialog would be better IMHO.
  • AutoMKV doesn't clean up after itself as well as AutoGK or Nero.  It leaves a bunch of files in the destination directory, and it isn't immediately clear which one your output file is!  I would much prefer that it do like AutoGK does and confine all it's work files to a subdirectory that can be easily deleted if they aren't needed.  You also have to manually specify a name for the final movie in the program's UI, rather than it defaulting to the source filename with some sort of addendum (AutoGK adds "_agk" to the end of the filename for example).  Nero doesn't leave you with any work files at all (other than an optional Logfile), which I also don't prefer (though it's better than a folder full of junk you don't need hardly ever).
  • AutoMKV beat Nero in speed as best I can tell (AutoMKV doesn't timestamp it's logs so I had to time it manually with a stopwatch).  This could be due to profile settings, because they were difficult to match given Nero's options.
Nero encode: 1:02 (min:sec) - profile Maximum Definition - AVC, no resize, audio standard (stereo). Final output file size 2540 KB
AutoMKV encode: 0:42 (min:sec) - X264 (MP4 container), Profile CE-Highprofile.xml, no resize, audio Nero AAC stereo (qual 0.5), Convolution3d preset "movieHQ" filter.  Final Output Size: 1886 KB
AutoGK encode: 0:33 (min:sec) - XviD, no resize (720 width), Audio MP3 VBR 160 kbps, Target Size: 2 MB.  Final Output Size: 2048 KB

  • Nero's controls of the final output size were fairly limited and somewhat cryptic.  I couldn't set it to anything less than 30 MB.  Nero then reported that (for an unexplained reason) the final output size would be 8 MB (if I changed profiles this number changed as well).  The file it actually produced was 2540 KB.  AutoMKV allows you to enter any size you want in MB.  It does fairly well at reaching this target, though not as well as AutoGK (perhaps because of the codecs used being all VBR-like).  I had AutoMKV set to target 2 MB and it produced a 1886 KB file.  AutoGK was spot on of course.
  • Both Nero and AutoMKV's MP4 files were clearly superior to the AutoGK XviD AVI file I produced.  This was somewhat exaggerated by the fact that that the source footage included blinking text (which the ASP MPEG-4 codec had trouble with and it "rippled" a bit in the XviD encode).  AutoGK's color fidelity was very good.  There were simply more compression related artifacts in the picture though.
  • It was very hard to decide which of the Nero or AutoMKV MP4 files were better final quality, though I have to give a slight nod to AutoMKV.  Both were crystal clear and free of any obvious visual artifacts from the compression.  Nero's color balance was a bit off though and shifted the final output a small bit "warmer" than the AutoMKV version.  While this looked nice (I like warm shots), the AutoMKV file was basically indistinguishable from the source footage and therefore was "truer".

  • Summary:


All-in-all I have to say that AutoMKV is, IMHO, the winner by a tiny margin.

Nero Recode was very good but given that the final output was shifted slightly in color, and the issues I had with configuring it, I have to go that way.  AutoMKV does have a slightly steeper learning curve, but once you do it is far quicker to set up and more powerful.  The fact that it was slightly faster than Nero was just a bonus as far as I'm concerned, and could be a result of slightly mismatched encoding profiles (I didn't use AutoMKV's Max Quality profiles as they aren't recommended due to being extremely slow and not much better at all in quality).  Plus, the 300 pound gorilla is that Nero Recode is a commercial product and is not free.  AutoGK is open source and free.  The developer is also very active and responsive to requests.

If you want to be able to encode to MPEG-4 AVC and you want a simple click-click-go encoder, either of the two would be appropriate.  Nero will take less time to figure out initially, but might take more time to get good quality out of.  AutoMKV will definitely take more time to figure out, but will likely give more flexibility and slightly better results in the end.
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2006, 03:14:56 pm »

Oh.  And either one produced resulting MP4 files that could be played by MC and MPC via either CCCP or FFDSHOW alone.

I may try to find access to a webserver where I can stash these files (the source and the 3 resulting files) so you can look at them yourself.  The total file size is about 20 MB though, and would pretty much fill up my available web storage space as is.
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rjm

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2006, 03:39:00 pm »

Excellent work Glynor. Thanks!

Will respond more fully later after I do some tests but a couple quick comments:

I also noticed Nero Recode provides no mechanism to control output file size and I am currently getting files larger than my target of 10MB per minute.

I am surprised you got AutoGK to accept DV AVI as an input. My version of AutoGK does not recognize DV AVI. I will double check that I have the correct version.

I am also evaluating MediaCoder for H264 encoding. You should have a look at this tool. It combines ultimate configurability with a simple mode, and converts just about anything to anything. It is free and the developer seems to be enhancing it a blistering pace.

http://mediacoder.sourceforge.net/

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2006, 03:55:34 pm »

Glynor,

I forgot to ask. When viewing your AVC mp4's with MC12, can you seek through the video with the slider bar?
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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2006, 10:36:34 am »

I forgot to ask. When viewing your AVC mp4's with MC12, can you seek through the video with the slider bar?

I am not able to seek the test file I just created!  I'm reasonably sure that I could with older builds of MC, and this same file is able to seek without issue in MPC (Media Player Classic), Windows Media Player, and ZoomPlayer.

Here's a sample file:

http://users.adelphia.net/~edandjenn/temp/seek_test-automkv.zip
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glynor

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Re: MPEG4 quality worse in MC than WMP
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2006, 11:00:41 am »

I am also evaluating MediaCoder for H264 encoding. You should have a look at this tool. It combines ultimate configurability with a simple mode, and converts just about anything to anything. It is free and the developer seems to be enhancing it a blistering pace.

I'd tried MediaCoder in the past.  It certainly provides a lot of capabilities, but talk about overwhelming!!

I actually downloaded the current version though, figuring I'd give it another shot.  Unfortunately, I've been unable to get it to encode to x264 with a Nero AAC audio track, so it'd be very difficult to compare apples to apples.  I also really don't like the interface for most projects.  It's far too difficult to specify quality settings.  I have no way to set profiles for different feature sets in the codecs (that I could find) and in general, it was just too difficult to get the results I wanted.

MediaCoder is very useful for some projects, as it can really encode from anything to anything (or pretty close anyhow).  But for my purposes (quickly converting DV recordings and MPEG-2 recordings to MPEG-4), it doesn't fit the bill.
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