Topic: UPS devices (Read 9869 times)

benn600 · « **on:** May 14, 2007, 05:54:11 pm »

I'm trying to figure out how UPS devices can advertise such incredible run times. I just got the APC Back-Ups 1500 XS, which is capable of 825 watts if I'm not mistaken. It's supposed to run for up to 110 minutes.

It has a great feature to show the wattage of devices plugged in. I tested a few configurations.

My server draws a huge amount when starting up--well over 400 watts.
Once running with all internal drives, it draws 280 watts.
If I power down all drives by simply setting power-off to 3 minutes and waiting, it lowers to 180 watts.

That makes good sense because I have 11 hard drives in there and the Windows drive probably doesn't shut off. 10 watts per drive is what I've heard is average. Anyway, it estimates 16 minutes run time! How can this be?! It also says it's at about 30% of its maximum capacity. When I have nothing plugged in, it estimates around 800 minutes.

My laptop pulls around 12 watts and was estimating 320 minutes run time.

I just wish I could somehow get a nice hour of run time for my server at a reasonable price. Sadly enough, this device actually costs a bit over $200. I had a lot of gift cards and discounts and got it for a great deal, but that's a lot of money. And the worst part is that devices like this, absolutely required for my server, are only useful the time or two each year when our power goes out.

It's fun to look at the APC site and look at their huge, room sized battery backup systems. I almost think hmm, ten to fifteen of these devices could probably power an average house for at least 10 minutes or so! Maybe a house wide unit would be better.

jgreen · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2007, 08:50:47 pm »

Well, since you've got your RAID held together with Bubble Gum and GrandMa's knickers, why not go the distance? Pull out your power supply and run your system directly from 12V. Buy a 110-hr battery at Walmart, along with a float charger. Run 12V leads from the battery into your computer harness, and plug the float charge into the wall (look for a socket). This setup will run your laptop for 24 hours if the power goes out. What it will do for that black box built out of buffalo dung is anyone's guess.

benn600 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2007, 09:11:07 pm »

I don't get it. I am looking at the APC site and for a 300 watt setup, which is more than my actual 280 watt setup, they are estimating 51 minutes for a 1500VA unit, which appears to be very similar or identical to the one I actually have. But in my test (running on battery now), I'm looking at 30 minutes for 200 watts! This is substantially lower than they estimate in their advertisements.

I may contact them directly. I just assume that an expert of every kind exists on this forum. Guess we're a little light on UPS/electrician stuff. Perhaps we need to recruit a few specialists.

KingSparta · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2007, 02:43:15 pm »

what you need is what i got..

I Have Two Each APC RS 1500 UPS Systems, I Also Have Two Optional External Battery Packs Called A RS\XS Battery Pack They Extend The Normal 50 Mins to Like 3 More Hours.

I don't just have my computers hooked to them but i have my Tivo, TV, Three DVD Players Etc...

So you may not need Two like me but one with a battery pack comes in very handy, and has been very nice for me during the extended outage, keeping my Internet site, tv etc... up and running

benn600 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2007, 12:10:47 am »

My setup basically consists of smaller ones scattered all over. I have a 650 VA one in the kitchen for KIP (see MC 12 OT thread on "LCD"). I like how if it's hooked up via USB, the computer estimates the time remaining with percentage. Then a 1500 on the server with a 725 for a few cameras, the server's monitor, main switch, wireless. Then a 750 for IPcop and the DSL modem. Then 350 VA ones for more cameras and switches. In a power failure, I'll have all my security cameras, internet, server data... At one point I had one in our theater and that was nice. It's surprising how little power a projector and receiver take. I'm really surprised how little stereos tend to take in general. At my main computer, I was testing the 1500 VA one with a wattage meter and when I added my 4.1 stereo, I don't recall much of a jump in power usage.

The 725 VA device was tested to power our theater for at least 10 minutes (who knows how much longer...didn't go till it died or beeped repeatedly). That was a 7.1 Yamaha receiver, 12" sub, projector, dvd player, other various trickle power users...

We don't have power outages very often so I have a hard time justifying all these UPS devices...lol. But they are dang nice in the event! I especially like hooking a cordless phone up to a small UPS. It will give you a cordless phone (like we're all used to) for a long time so you don't have to use your cell or grab a corded phone.

Why is my 1500 VA device so much heavier and larger than the 725 VA one? The battery is not that big at all. Most of the device is just internal components! It's huge and very heavy!

KingSparta · « **Reply #5 on:** May 21, 2007, 01:47:57 pm »

part of it maybe heat displacement, larger step-up transformer (12 volts DC to 115volts AC), and more capacitors (not very heavy but they take room up)

benn600 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2007, 04:34:10 pm »

I had an interesting experience with these devices. I purchased one a week or two ago and noticed that Best Buy had it marked down to $145! I paid $200. So, I ran out and got a price match on the first one and bought a second. The second is for our theater room.

So I brought it home, hooked up the battery, and took it downstairs to the theater. I found a nice spot for it and got it setup. Everything condenses at the power source to three extension cords so I figured I would just plug them all in to the unit. That includes receiver, projector, subwoofer, dvd, cd, computer, 3 gaming systems, lights, vcr, video box, and other minor objects. I made sure the laser printer was hooked directly to the wall.

So I plugged it in and it started beeping and showing F01. That means on-battery overload. Hmm, it's plugged into the wall so it shouldn't need to use the battery. Plus, other than initial spikes, the power draw is well under 50 watts and this is capable of 865 watts.

So I unplugged it and I think I removed 2 of the extension cords. Then I plugged it in again. Then it blew a fuse! Well great. I then tried it in another outlet and it basically appears to be destroyed or something because it doesn't do anything worthwhile.

They shipped me a replacement overnight and it's working great now. At 300 watts power draw, it estimates around 15 minutes of uptime but APC claims 26 minutes at 300 watts. What causes this difference?

I've had the theater on battery backup for quite a while but there was a period where I stole the UPS devices for other equipment...what a surprise, in that time, I was in it when we had the power outage from the big ice storm. And someone accidentally flipped the breaker another time. I knew that couldn't be good for all the equipment.

$145 is a great price and Best Buy has 12% off coupons so I could get another for ~$135 (tax). It is a difficult expense, though, knowing we don't have outages too often. One was required for the server or it could corrupt the entire RAID 5 array...and the theater is reasonable. The other UPS devices I have were really cheap on sale. The only other two potential areas are my computer setup or our family room setup.

I still keep thinking about how I am so close to having just about every device battery backed up. It seems like a complete house battery backup system wouldn't be out of reach--perhaps ignoring the huge devices. How many watts do refrigerators, air conditioners, washers/dryers draw?

KingSparta · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2007, 04:48:48 pm »

Quote

What causes this difference?

I would think mostly battery condition, but also some APC backup systems the voltage can be adjusted and that too could extend or reduce the up time.

Voltage should be between 110 and 120 volts if you have ever stuck a voltage meter in the wall and watch it thru the day you will see that it will not be 115 volts 24\7

in case anyone is interested you can always find Watts, Amps Or voltage of you have 2 out of the three.

Watts Divided By Volts = Amps
Amps Multiplied By Volts = Watts
Watts Divided By Amps = Volts

benn600 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2007, 04:59:47 pm »

This particular unit is quite nice. It tells me all this. It tells watts drawn, input voltage, output voltage, estimated uptime, and some other info but watts is my favorite statistic. It's nice to know how much is drawn from devices so I know how much it's costing to run them, lol.

These devices are brand new so battery condition shouldn't be too bad I'd say. In fact, the replacement unit was shipped directly from APC so it is probably very new.

benn600 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2007, 10:28:01 pm »

How often does APC or the other UPS/surge protector companies pay out based on their $150,000 protection policy? I haven't ever had an issue but it's interesting because most devices we have end up going through a surge protector strip since 2 outlets are never enough...in fact, I think there may be 2 outlets in the whole house that don't need at least a 3-way adapter, of which don't always have surge protectors.

But is there any info on if those companies have ever had to pay out tens of thousands of dollars for claims?

newsposter · « **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2007, 01:56:38 pm »

Benn, for $200 you can get a whole house surge protector installed in the fuse box. They work very well. made by GE and several other companies.

Oh, and you never, EVER want to use a surge protector downstream from a UPS. And never use an outlet strip either. Those boxes, especially the consumer/SOHO grade boxes, are designed not only for a max wattage draw, but for a combination of inductive/resistive loads. Using outlet strips blows those design assumptions all to hell.

Keep learning though.

KingSparta · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2007, 02:00:05 pm »

Quote

most devices we have end up going through a surge protector strip

newsposter echo, echo echo

benn600 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2007, 02:22:33 pm »

Quote

Oh, and you never, EVER want to use a surge protector downstream from a UPS. And never use an outlet strip either. Those boxes, especially the consumer/SOHO grade boxes, are designed not only for a max wattage draw, but for a combination of inductive/resistive loads. Using outlet strips blows those design assumptions all to hell.

Well, I'm not sure if you coughed and I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say but huh?

First of all, using a surge protector downstream from a UPS...lol. My computer setup has 5 power strips that are downstream from the UPS, which powers everything I have. And don't use outlet strip? What?! So I guess people with common 2 outlet plugs can plug their computer & monitor in...no speakers, printer, networking, scanner, lights, ...etc.

The funny thing is that while most of our stuff is technically on surge protectors, I have never had any problems with dying or failing equipment where the cause was not something obvious. So basically no power problems (surges, etc.) have ever damaged any equipment. Nothing really ever breaks so I'm led to not worry about surge protectors. However, I need lots of strips anyway so I might as well just get the surge ones.

Addition: I'm sorry but I'm still speechless. What are you trying to say here? And KingSparta seems to support your words. How do you plug in 2 monitors, computer, speakers, network switch, scanner, phone, ipaq charger, cell phone charger, camcorder charger, still camera charger, 5 lights, and leave extra outlets for occasional use? Do most homes have almost 20 outlets in the average wall? Why are strips sold? I'm utterly confused.

jgreen · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2007, 02:30:26 pm »

Yeah, I'd like to hear more about this, too. No surge protector downstream from an UPS? No power strips?

KingSparta · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2007, 04:36:58 pm »

I don't think he is saying don't use them, but they have limited protection vrs a UPS Or both Used jointly.

Normally 10 wall plugs are connected to a 15 amp breaker this is due to home owners are not expected to plug in many devices that will overload 15 amp circuit breaker (Like Floor Heaters Will).

In The National Electric Code (In The U.S.A.) Each Plug Is Assumed To Have 1.5 Amp Draw For A Total Of 15 Amps (I Took A 6 Week Course Once).

I actually have power fed from two circuit breakers. I Have Two RS / 1500 APC UPS, Each Has A Auxiliary External Battery Pack (For Longer Up Time).

Each line has a surge protector prior to the UPS, after the UPS I Have Two Plug Strips Per UPS. Each strip has 8 plug Outlets and is about 5 feet long. That's 16 Plugs per UPS The Total Number Of Outlets Number 32 Between The 4 Strips.

The Load Is Balanced Between The Two UPS Systems

I Also Have Surge Protection On My Cable Modem Line, And Ethernet Cables. Many People Overlook The Cable Modem, Ethernet And Phone Line Feeds That Can Also Blow Out Ethernet Cards And More. My Main Computer\Server Has Been Running 24\7 Since 2002

http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=23

Note The Image On The Right That Is One APC 1500va UPS With battery Pack, I Have Two Complete Systems With The Auxiliary Battery Pack.

Over Kill? Maybe But I Don't Have Problems.

benn600 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2007, 05:13:24 pm »

Here is the device I have:
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR1500LCD

I have two of them and am considering a third or fourth. I am very careful to get all switches, modem, etc. between everything hooked up so I truly have a great battery backup system. I read that the units I have (see URL) supposedly also accept those battery packs you are talking about -- it's right on the datasheet for the battery pack--but I don't see the three plug connector anywhere on my units. It sounds like the extra battery more than doubles total runtime. That would be nice...but again, I hardly ever have outages. I almost wish we had more outages so these things were easier to justify. Yes, when we do have an outage, I absolutely love having these things but it angers me when I only get 20 minutes because that isn't much time. They claim up to 154 minutes. My theater with everything off and the projector in cool down mode (fan only) draws more than to get 154 minutes!

I feel that for $200, the price of the unit I have, I should get more than 18 minutes for my server or theater. I actually got them for under $150, though.

KingSparta · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2007, 07:24:15 pm »

they are cheaper than they were back about 1989 when i bought my first one for like $800 and it was not 1500va (it was something like 500va).

I do have one for my wife's computer too, i got it free from work, they were going to put it in the trash like 6 years ago. so i took it to batteries plus (not even a block from me) and got two batteries for it and it worked. I am on my second set of batteries.

newsposter · « **Reply #17 on:** May 23, 2007, 09:38:40 pm »

To understand the real limitations of cheap home/soho devices you need to understand the differences between resistive and reactive amp-loads and the ability of the UPS in question to deal with that.

ALL of the UPS makers say to NOT use outlet strips or surge protectors downstream of a UPS.

It's not just volts/amps/watts that define electricity. When talking about cheap UPS devices and their low-ball solid-state inverters, the potential for out of phase 'feedback' and the relative/cumulative current uptake/ramp speeds are just as important and totally ignored by the consumer when plugging things in willy-nilly.

benn600 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 23, 2007, 09:41:57 pm »

Quote

ALL of the UPS makers say to NOT use outlet strips or surge protectors downstream of a UPS.

I guess I ain't gonna listen to APC. Too bad...poor baby...dag nabit. There ain't a chance (sorry again).

Addition: again, I ain't ever had a problem with power things so it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.

jgreen · « **Reply #19 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:11:53 pm »

Okay, poster, I think I understand what you're saying: Don't plug resistive devices (powersaw, heater, curling iron, blender, etc) onto the same "mini-grid" as your computer, monitors, hard drives, downstream of an UPS. Si?

benn600 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:16:33 pm »

lol. uhh, well, yea, that seems pretty obvious but I guess if that isn't specified it could be unclear.

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Author Topic: UPS devices (Read 9869 times)