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[globetrotters1]

Well, this might be a strange topic for this forum, but I ran into a difficult problem to solve and can't find a good solution as of now.

The main problem is that modern music (pop, rock etc) has a pretty simple library database setup. Artist, album, track and so on. The classical music has much more data to store, like artists, composer, conductor and so on.

Of course it is possible to create two different MC12 database libraries. But... switching from one library to another library 'on the fly' (for instance on a touchpanel in the bedroom) I can't - or - I didn't find how I can do that in Theater View.

Any suggestion for solving this problem would be helpful and appreciated. Probably someone with a bigger library (or libraries) with classical music AND modern music might be able to give me some hints before I start ripping my 3000 classical CDs...

Thanks,
Martin
(globetrotters1)

[hit_ny]

You can create custom tags as you need them.

If you setup 2 viewschemes, one for classical and the other for pop. Each shows only the relevant columns.

Then its question of choosing either viewscheme to select the preferred album from that genre.

[Alex B]

I wouldn't worry too much about the view schemes configuration on ripping stage. You can do that later. You could just add a couple of columns to your ripping details view and fill some additional information before putting the CD box away. Here's what I use for Classical albums:


Click to enlarge.

I would also recommend using the secure ripping mode and a lossless codec like Monkey's Audio. This old thread has some good tips for ripping with MC: Topic: How can I ensure quality of a ripped music file

[globetrotters1]

thanks guys for your hints, especially the column layout helps!

appreciated!

[Listener]

I ripped my collection of over 2000 Cds last year in about 3-4 months.  About 2/3 was classical music.

Some additional tips:

1. Think about the tags you will need for classical music and the way you want to browse to find the music you want.
(Composer then Work then Artist then Version is my most common browse sequence.  Sometimes I select a sub-genre after Composer.)

2. Pick a file format that will allow you to use the tags you need for classical music.
(I use FLAC.  I can define custom tags as I wish.  MP3 and other formats that use ID3 tagging support the Composer and Conductor tag but may not support additional tags.)

3. Think about the file name and folder names you want to use.  You will be using MC to find music files most of the time but there are times when you'll want to identify a music file from its folder and file name.  You can specify patterns for folder and file nAme under Tools/Options/File Location.

4. Pick a Ripper.  EAC and MC are equivalent for speed and accuracy for me.  dBPowerAmp R12 Reference has secure ripping features and some wrinkles that make it much faster for me.  I had obvious glitches in one CD that dBpoweramp said it ripped securely.  MC lets you get the file name and tags right for classical music.  EAC and dBpoweramp are not good.  More work later when you import files into MC.

5. Prepare yourself for entering a lot of the tag info by hand. Neither YADB, FreeDB, MusicBtrainz nor AllMediaGuide provide decent tag info for classical music CDs.  There are things you can do to reduce the effort and the pain.  (MC provides combobox lookups for tag values.  You can use 2 CD drives so that your tag entry time is overlapped with actual ripping time.  More tips if you need them.)

6. Try things out on a sample of your CDs.  Get your methods right before you wade in on all your CDs.

7. Back up your MC library and Music files as you go along.

As someone else said, you can define view schemes for classical music and for other music later.

It is worth the effort when you get all your music collection on your hard disk.

Bill

[darichman]

I too recently undertook the task of organising my rather large classical collection. The default tags simply don't cut it for the following reasons:
 --> each piece will have multiple artists (composer, performer, arranger, conductor, orchestra/ensemble)
 --> tracks will belong to a physical album (eg Best of Bach) and to a work (eg Brandenburg Concertos) so a single album tag won't suffice...

To begin with, I organise all my music files by three levels of genre, all are custom, list-type fields
[Genre 1] = the uppermost level of organisation. For broad categories of music
   eg Popular, Classical, Film, Comedy, Christmas, Game

[Genre 2] = major styles of music within each Genre 1
  eg Rock/Pop, Rap/Hip-Hop, Electronic/Dance, Jazz, World etc  (for popular music)
       Romantic, Classical Period, 20th Century, Baroque, Medieval etc (for Classical)

[Genre 3] = specific styles of music
  eg Adult Alternative, Britpop, Album, Rock, Midwest Rap etc (for Popular)
       Concerto, Symphony, Prelude, Fugue, Waltz etc (for classical)

For popular music, Genres 2 & 3 are based on the "Genre" and "Style" fields used on AMG respectively (http://www.allmusic.com/)
For classical, I try to use information from http://www.cduniverse.com/ where available

Eg. Bach's: Brandenburg Concerto No.1 BWV 1046 in F Major I. Allegro

[Default Field]
[Custom Field]

[Composer] = Bach, Johann Sebastian
[Artist] = Johann Sebastian Bach
[Album] = Brandenburg Concertos 1-6 (ie the CD album purchased)
[Performer] = Emanuel Hurwitz (Violin); Peter Graeme (Oboe); Ifor James (French Horn); Anthony Randall (French Horn)
[Conductor] = Benjamin Britten
[Band] = English Chamber Orchestra (ie the orchestra or ensemble)

[Genre 1] = Classical (vs. Popular, Film, Comedy etc)
[Genre 2] = Baroque; Chamber Music
[Genre 3] = Concerto

[Works 1] = Concertos and Orchestral Suites
[Works 2] = Brandenburg Concertos

[Classical: Title] = Brandenburg Concerto No.1
[Classical: Name] = (ie common name of piece: not used for this piece)
[Classical: Opus] = BWV 1046
[Classical: Number] = (used for opus parts: not used for this piece)
[Classical: Movement] = I. Allegro
[Key] = F Major

[Date Written] = 1721
[Date Recorded] = 1995
[Date Released] = 1995

Without going into too much detail, I then put together an expression (as a new field: "Piece") based on the above fields, which formats the output based on which fields are filled... ie Brandenburg Concerto No.1 BWV 1046 in F Major I. Allegro

That way I can fill out whichever fields I've got the information for, and still get a nice clean display to browse my classical music...

[ThoBar]

WOW!!

This is almost exactly what I do!

My 3 custom genre fields are used across Audio and Video (and probably Images and Documents when I get that far)

I also include non-audio files (eg Opera and Classical vids) that I want to be able to listen to - even though they aren't pure audio - in the audio tree. (If I want to listen to a work, I dont want to have to remember if it's in the Audio or Video section of my library)

I also use a custom field for [Instruments]and I'll have a look when I get home for others..

Rule of thumb: Include absolutely everything, and do it as you go.

I made the mistake of not having this properly sorted out when I was ripping, and now have a huge task of getting it all entered and correct.


C.

[bbrip]

darichman's outlay is really close to perfect! I am not quite as detailed but plan to got that way... even so I admit that I shy away form tha work involved (lazy cow, me...).

anyway, thanks for the hints. Even after tagging classical for three years now, I can learn from this 

BB

[darichman]

Rule of thumb: Include absolutely everything, and do it as you go.

I made the mistake of not having this properly sorted out when I was ripping, and now have a huge task of getting it all entered and correct.

This is the best advice! Obsessive-compulsive personality traits are your friend. Don't rest until every minutia of information is stored safely in your database! haha actually I have lots of missing data and it's a real task searching for that original CD and typing the data in. Fortunately, once you have many of the works filled in, you can simply copy common fields from files already in the library, unless of course they're album specific.

Kingsparta's datamaster might actually come in handy here if those of us interested in classical music agreed on some share-able fields to upload.

My 3 custom genre fields are used across Audio and Video (and probably Images and Documents when I get that far)

I also include non-audio files (eg Opera and Classical vids) that I want to be able to listen to - even though they aren't pure audio - in the audio tree. (If I want to listen to a work, I dont want to have to remember if it's in the Audio or Video section of my library)

I find them really useful for music videos as well. If you plan on having your other videos, documents and images in the same library though, I found that I required two additional fields, [Type 1] and [Type 2], which allow you to tag broad and more specific categories of media, irrespective of [Media Type].

This combination of genres and categories is sufficient to organise any and all combinations of media in any way you want within the one library. It's not exactly necessary for small libraries or if you're only interested in one or two media types, but I use media center to organise music, music videos, films, television, theatre, comics, books, images, personal (photos and home videos) ~ you can set up view schemes for each of these.

That's a whole other topic though

Edit: btw if anyone's interested in my classical music expression (Marko helped me with it ) let me know and I'll post it. It formats your classical fields into a single field for display in playing now etc.

[NickM]

I would PAY to have an on-line service fill in all the (missing) classical tags for me...
But the idea of King's datamaster and an agreed set of custom tags would be Fantastic.  I'll say yes to anyone's format...

[ThoBar]

Kingsparta's datamaster might actually come in handy here if those of us interested in classical music agreed on some share-able fields to upload.

But the idea of King's datamaster and an agreed set of custom tags would be Fantastic.  I'll say yes to anyone's format...

With a couple of additional fields, I'd be in for that too... lets see how many of us would be interested to see if its worthwhile...

C.

[robydago]

Kingsparta's datamaster might actually come in handy here if those of us interested in classical music agreed on some share-able fields to upload.

that would be great! given the amount of work needed to manually enter all that info, sharing the workload is really needed.

[darichman]

I would PAY to have an on-line service fill in all the (missing) classical tags for me...

Me too! That would be great. But I'm not aware of any out there...

With a couple of additional fields, I'd be in for that too... lets see how many of us would be interested to see if its worthwhile...

Cool. What additional fields do you use and I'll add them!
If anyone's interested we can start a thread?

[Listener]

More comments:

--. tagging info - There is a project underway to build a database of classical music information for tagging.  Look at the wtdb group on Yahoo. (wtdb = Well tempered Databaser.)  I finished tagging my collection before this project produced anything.

-- "Rule of thumb: Include absolutely everything, and do it as you go."

I disagree with this.  MC has great tools for making tag editing efficient and less painful.  I didn't fill out the Conductor tag when I ripped CDs.  Filling it out later took about 1 hour for ~1400 classical Cds woth of music files.

-- what to enter when you rip CDs
I experimented with ripping 100+ CDs and playing files from that small library before I starting ripping my collection. 

When I ripped my whole collection, my priorities were

1. Finding music to play it.  If I can't find the music I want to play quickly and naturally, then what's the point of playing music from myPC. 

MC can use the PC screen quite effectively but that screen real estate is finite.  I figured out what I needed to see on the screen and designed tag content and view schemes to use the screen effectively.
 
2. Seeing what I own. Once MC can remember what I own, I don't have to.  I can't remember all the performances of symphonies and concerti I own.

3. Keeping information about performances.  This is less important to me so I didn't bother to enter some information.  Extra information may conflict with 1.  (For example, putting the key and the op. number may not be important for most works.) Maybe some day I'll add all the relevant info.


--- what I did
I filled out the following tags as I ripped:

Composer
Album, Work - name of work ("Beethoven symphopny No. 1")
Artist - performers ("Fleisher_Szell_Cleveland Orchestra")
Name - movement ("1 - Allegro")
Genre - ("Classical")
Sub-Genre - ("Concerto, Piano")  This tag keeps the list of works I select from
    to a reasonable length for Beethoven, Mozart or Haydn.
Version - ("Essential Classics" or "24 bit remaster")
Collection Name - for collection CDs, mostly for non classical CDs.

---- what you should do
Your needs will be different from mine.  I strongly recommend that you experiemtn with ripping, tagging and playing muysic on a small library before you start.  Design some view schemes so that you know how you will use the tag info.  Work out your methods for entering tag info and decide on the format. 

It is important to follw a consistent format for tag values. A library with inconsistent tag values is little more than garbage. You may change your mind as you go along but you need to be organized and disciplined about any changes.

You will make mistakes in entering tag values.  MC is a great tool for finding errors and fixing them.  Scanning a list of valies in a pane is a fast, effective way to find, misspellings and unassigned values.  Sorting the file list in various ways can help as can searching for a word.

Bill

[KingSparta]

I Love Classical Music

Listening to: 'Don't Eat the Yellow Snow' from "Frank Zappa And The London Symphony Orchestra, Vol. 1 ' by 'Frank Zappa' on Media Center 12