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[glynor]

I'd still certainly prefer that MC handle as many apple devices directly as they can.  However, Apple doesn't make this easy.  Never has and probably never will.  And, the truth is that syncing an iPhone (or iPod Touch) with iTunes does a lot more than just sync music, images, podcasts, and video onto the phone.  It installs new apps on the device (and backs up existing apps which you installed "over the air"), it syncs contacts (mine sync to my google contacts), and handles calendar syncing.

Unless MC intends to provide ALL of these services, wouldn't a good alternative option be for MC to actually just use iTunes as though it were an external handheld.  This would solve all of our problems with brand new apple devices, and allow us to fully utilize the features of our devices.  And, while I don't think it'd make them real happy, you wouldn't really be even "hacking" anything.  iTunes has a published API!  You can do all kinds of automating tricks with iTunes.  That's how iTLU works, after all.  I'm sure MC could do an awesome job, and give us full support for our devices and automated "handheld-like" syncing directly into iTunes.

Treat it for all intents and purposes as though it IS the handheld.  Open it, "sync over to it" (meaning add the specified files to its database and remove the ones that should be removed, converting, copying, and conversion-caching as needed/desired), set the sync options, launch the sync, close iTunes when finished.  Wham-bam-done.  Slow and wasteful of disk space, but it'd work.  And it'd work with new handhelds immediately (as long as they didn't muck with the API, but even if they did, they'd publish how to fix it).

Like I said.  I'd still want native iPod support whenever possible, including for the iPhone.  But it'd be awful nice for me to have the option to still get the benefit of those other features.  And it'd be awful nice for JRiver to be able to effectively guarantee that it'll work with your trendy new gadget if it works with iTunes, at least as a backup.  I realize that it is a bit of a bitter pill to effectively require that the user has the competitor's application installed on their machine.  That's why I'm only suggesting this be treated as a backup plan.  A supported one, but a backup plan.  However, you can also look at it as a migration path for new users (many of whom are going to have iTunes already installed).  And, frankly, the user doesn't care.  The user wants results and wants his or her fancy doohickey to work.

And so do I.    

[zxsix]

I could go either way.
I'd prefer to not have to use itunes at all though.
Using itunes to sync yesterday, I got a flashback as to how much I hate it's "smart" playlists.
I replicated one I use in MC that ensures all songs from my 25 to favorite artists are always on the ipod.
In MC, it's artist = (check a bunch of boxes in a list displayed).  Nice and easy.
In itunes, it's 25 lines of artist = name1, artist =name2, etc.   Very lame.


Whichever way it goes, the ratings changes made on the handheld must get updated back to MC.

[BartMan01]

Until Apple decides to open up the platform (like that is ever going to happen), I would PREFER this approach.  It does complicate the sync process:
MC > iTunes > Apple device and then Apple device > iTunes > MC for full data updates both directions, so I can see why it is not the 'preferred' approach by JRiver.
New Apple device users (esp iPhone and touch) pretty much HAVE to have iTunes installed anyway to handle apps and device updates.  I really don't think there is a concern over iTunes 'stealing away' JRiver's customers - the two programs aren't even close to being on par with each other when it comes to feature set.

Good timely thread since Apple is about to re-fresh their iPod lineup next month and most of the new devices will probably not work with MC12 right away.

[glynor]

Good timely thread since Apple is about to re-fresh their iPod lineup next month and most of the new devices will probably not work with MC12 right away.

Exactly what I'm thinking.  And next September, and the September after that, and so on and so forth ad infinitum.  Not to mention the problem of supporting all the other Sync needs with the iPhone/Touch (Apps, Contacts, Calendar, etc).

I'd prefer to not have to use itunes at all though.
Using itunes to sync yesterday, I got a flashback as to how much I hate it's "smart" playlists.

If they implemented this as I imagine, you wouldn't need to use the iTunes "smart" playlists.  That's my entire point.  You'd just use MC and then sync to your "handheld".  Only the handheld would be iTunes (so your library on iTunes would be contain only the files synced to it from MC), and then MC would automate the process of opening iTunes, updating the library there, initiating the sync, and closing iTunes.  You'd only "see" iTunes for as long as it takes for this process to complete.

Ugly, but it could accomplish pretty much exactly what you want, I think.  Not that I'd like it either.  I HATE to have iTunes installed, but right now the situation is far, far uglier.